Is this appropriate behavior for a 5 year old boy?

AggieCouple

H and I need some perspective.  There are a lot of things we took for granted, I think, having a girl first, only to be royally schooled when TB was born.  Or maybe it's just personality (calm down, moms of boys).  

Anyway.  There is some family on H's side we see pretty rarely.  They have a son who turned 5 back in September.  Over the summer, I told H I had been outside with him and ML, and he had said to me loudly, "My shoes are untied."  I looked at him and asked, "What do you want me to do about it?"  And he said (not asked), "Tie them."  I was taken aback and although not my child, I corrected him with, "How do you ask?"  He then did ask politely.

We were at their house today, and while I was sitting at the breakfast table with the parents, he swung his foot into my lap and said loudly, "MY SHOES ARE UNTIED."

His parents did not correct him at all.  I chose to ignore him because I thought I'd give them a chance to say SOMETHING.   They said nothing and he repeated, "Hey, my shoes are untied."

I asked again, "What do you want me to do about it?"  And he answered, "Tie them."  At this point, I am flushed, because I cannot believe these parents are letting their son, who is in a way our nephew, speak to me this way.  So I corrected him, "Is that how you speak to a grown up?"

 Finally, his mom told him to come over and she'd tie them, and she gives me this wide-eyed, WTF look.

Um.  What?  Really?  Was I out of line?  I told H, who was in the other room, about it, and he was completely irate that they let their son be so disrespectful.  

I don't know.  Again, I know there are some people who are like "Kids are kids, don't expect them to act like grown-ups" and also, I come from a culture where kids are completely submissive by the age of 2, so I know my views can be skewed.  These people are, you know, pretty normal.  Educated, smart, I actually like them.  So maybe H and I just have weird expectations?

Your thoughts? 

goodheartedmommy

I teach manners, too, but yes, I think that's completely normal behavior for a 5 year old. I do not think it's okay, but I know a lot of parents who allow their child to speak to them like that. And some do not really allow it, but their kids do it anyway.

veloelle

I dont think it's gender related. Age and parents.

cnybride2be

i don't come from a culture where kids are pretty submissive at 2.  but if my five year old did that i would be quietly mortified, and would have immediately requested he take his shoe off your lap.  and then i would have made sure an apology took place for the rude behavior.  and I would make a mental note to work on such manners later with him.   

EdithBouvierBeale

maybe?

Idk.

you asked a direct question :what do you want me to do about it? and he answered you directly.

while maybe rude...I don't think of it as a major failing on the boy's parents part, or a sure sign of future convictions and prison time...

it seems like you're generally a little pearl clutchy and uptight, though...so....

Im sure it's less of a big deal than you're making it.

Marce921

My 4 yr old DS will say things like that but I certainly correct him and do what you did. I usually say something like, "how do you ask for that?" Or lead him with "please...." if he says something like "give me some milk." IMO, it's not doing him any favors by not correcting him.

Jamaica_Bride

Not gender related but very age appropriate. When one of mine barks at me, I ask them if they have a proper question in their mouths.

Manners are huge in my house- huge.

cnybride2be

and i'll add that my five year old is a big boy with a big ole shoe that should not be in any guest's lap.  he would look ridiculous doing this even.  and i only clutch pearls occasionally .

CleoKitty

I don't know. Honestly? I think your answer was a little deliberately obtuse.

Granted I didn't hear his tone of voice (a meek little "My shoe is untied!" vs a gruff, demanding "MY SHOE IS UNTIED, BIATCH!") but in general it seems a little like making a mountain out of a molehill. Overall it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me at all.

Kapalua

I think it's normal.  When N does this I just tell him it's not nice to bark orders at people and I'll help him when he learns to ask nice. 

Zenya

I think your reaction was odd.  "what do you want me to do about it",  Wasn't it kind of obvious?

Rebekah1021

I think you were looking for a reason to be judge-y. The kid is 5 for crying out loud. I'd give you the WTF look if you said that to my kid. 

JOEBunny

I think it is normal.  DD can be like this about me handing her milk.  She makes a big deal out of it and is very demanding.  I pick my battles.  She is generally very polite and nice, so the fact that she will go bonkers if I don't hand her her milk sometimes (even when she close enough to get it herself.), I just let it ride.  Otherwise, it is a big control issue for her. I don't expect perfect social skills in kindergarten. 

Out of curiosity, what culture is this? "culture where kids are completely submissive by the age of 2"

CleoKitty

I'm also curious- what exactly does it mean for a two year old to be completely submissive in practical terms? Does it mean they don't speak to adults without being spoken to first? In day to day life what does a submissive 2-3-4-5 year old child look like and do you consider your own children to have that trait?

Rebekah1021

CleoKitty:

I'm also curious- what exactly does it mean for a two year old to be completely submissive in practical terms? Does it mean they don't speak to adults without being spoken to first? In day to day life what does a submissive 2-3-4-5 year old child look like and do you consider your own children to have that trait?

Also, how the heck do you do that? 

BubblyToes

EdithBouvierBeale:

maybe?

Idk.

you asked a direct question :what do you want me to do about it? and he answered you directly.

while maybe rude...I don't think of it as a major failing on the boy's parents part, or a sure sign of future convictions and prison time...

it seems like you're generally a little pearl clutchy and uptight, though...so....

Im sure it's less of a big deal than you're making it.

This x1000.

gracendantho26

I've actually encountered this exact same issue with the shoe tying a lot working in DS's kinder classroom...and always from boys. I always just say (in my best sing songy voice) "how do we ask Mrs. Gracentho to tie our shoes nicely?" I'm sort of the manners police with my kids but I do know that kids are just thoughtless at times.

mollynpatrick

I think there is a big difference between "normal" and acceptable/appropriate. I do not allow my son to speak to me or to others in that way. I expect him to ask for help in a polite way. I'm a first grade teacher and I don't allow my students to speak to me that way either. I expect them to ask for help in a polite way. It's rude to demand that things are done for you and just because it can be a child's first instinct to speak in such a way doesn't make it ok or acceptable. Depending on how close I was to the family/child I would have said something like " How do you ask nicely/politely?".

brideonoct1

Why was it ok for YOU to be rude to him? You model the behavior you want to see (and receive). You're the adult. Your answer to him was mean.

EdithBouvierBeale

so it looks like pretty much everyone agrees that while it is preferrable to correct the demanding untied shoe monster, it isn't ghastly or really even unexpected- right?

I mean, all day long I remind my kids how to ask for something politely before I cater to their unrelenting list of demands...

but reminding them all day (and often- they do remember on their own- lots of pleases and thank yous in this house! hooray!) still doesn't mean that every single instance of needing something and wanting something is presented with manners.

I just don't believe for a minute that any kid is 100% on with their manners ALL of the time, with nary a reminder.

also...submissive 2 year olds? woah! Do they grow up to be proponents of "domestic discipline later in life?

 

BubblyToes

Edith, I'm betting those submissive 2 year olds don't grow up to get lap dances.  'Cause that's cheating, you know.

AggieCouple

I'm pretty surprised by the responses.  I'm around a lot of kids,, and I've never had a child put his foot in my lap and demand service, especially one that age, and who didn't know me very well.  We see them maybe once or twice a year.  

His behavior isn't exactly what I was questioning, but the fact that his mom didn't correct him, and his parents obviously thought it was normal and entirely appropriate, which was bizarre to me and H.  And, that's why I asked.  Because I know there is a wide range of POV's on this board, pearl clutchers and otherwise.  Also, honestly, I do think ML, through either being a girl or having a mild personality or both, has spoiled us, and I may have to swing TB's foot off someone's lap someday.  But, I WOULD take his foot off someone's lap.

The "submissive by 2" was just a phrase, but yeah, you absolutely learn your place as a child vs. an adult, especially when it comes to adult relatives. There are all kinds of phrases, acts, and gestures that are signs of respect, and most kids are taught them by the age of 2 or 3.  Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

CleoKitty

BubblyToes:

Edith, I'm betting those submissive 2 year olds don't grow up to get lap dances.  'Cause that's cheating, you know.

If dh and I get a lap dance together is it still cheating?

EdithBouvierBeale

BubblyToes:

Edith, I'm betting those submissive 2 year olds don't grow up to get lap dances.  'Cause that's cheating, you know.

but you darn well better believe that they'll PERFORM one if they're told to!

::::::whipcrack::::::::::::

BubblyToes

CleoKitty:

BubblyToes:

Edith, I'm betting those submissive 2 year olds don't grow up to get lap dances.  'Cause that's cheating, you know.

If dh and I get a lap dance together is it still cheating?

Wear a blindfold, then you're safe.

EdithBouvierBeale

AggieCouple:

I'm pretty surprised by the responses.  I'm around a lot of kids,, and I've never had a child put his foot in my lap and demand service, especially one that age, and who didn't know me very well.  We see them maybe once or twice a year.  

His behavior isn't exactly what I was questioning, but the fact that his mom didn't correct him, and his parents obviously thought it was normal and entirely appropriate, which was bizarre to me and H.  And, that's why I asked.  Because I know there is a wide range of POV's on this board, pearl clutchers and otherwise.  Also, honestly, I do think ML, through either being a girl or having a mild personality or both, has spoiled us, and I may have to swing TB's foot off someone's lap someday.  But, I WOULD take his foot off someone's lap.

The "submissive by 2" was just a phrase, but yeah, you absolutely learn your place as a child vs. an adult, especially when it comes to adult relatives. There are all kinds of phrases, acts, and gestures that are signs of respect, and most kids are taught them by the age of 2 or 3.  Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

how charming!!

I just moved you two houses down from JoeBunny in my nestie neighborhood mockup

Littlejen22

Um, girls can be rude too.  And yes, that is normal for a 5yo, not b/c it is a boy.  I honestly think that you were over-reacting, it is not like he called you a name or screamed in your face.  Yes, the parents should have reminded him to say please but he said he shoe was untied and you asked him what he wants you to do, he answered you and you got annoyed b/c he did not say please.  It is not your place to teach him manners and I think that you are over-reacting by saying that they let him talk to you like that, from what you said it does not seem like anything horrible happened.  All of that said, I teach my son to say please and thank you, but would look at you like you had two heads from how you reacted although I would have told him to ask politely so maybe you would have reacted differently.

Zenya

AggieCouple:

 Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

That is creepy to me but even so if someone is rude to you then I think it's fair to nicely ask for a please.  Your being obnoxious about it would really piss me off as a parent. You're certainly old enough to know better.  

r9stedt

Zenya:

AggieCouple:

 Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

That is creepy to me but even so if someone is rude to you then I think it's fair to nicely ask for a please.  Your being obnoxious about it would really piss me off as a parent. You're certainly old enough to know better.  

That is pretty judgmental of you to call another person's culture creepy.  I can't imagine the flames if someone called a bris creepy.   

 

BubblyToes

I don't think she's calling the culture itself creepy.  For me, the way it's worded with the whole "submissive" mess, that just sounds odd to me.  Not to mention the sanctimommyness of it all. 

Zenya

BubblyToes:

I don't think she's calling the culture itself creepy.  For me, the way it's worded with the whole "submissive" mess, that just sounds odd to me.  Not to mention the sanctimommyness of it all. 

Thank you.

 

r9stedt

BubblyToes:

I don't think she's calling the culture itself creepy.  For me, the way it's worded with the whole "submissive" mess, that just sounds odd to me.  Not to mention the sanctimommyness of it all. 

Oh, well. To each their own.   I didn't think of it like that. 

winery

r9stedt:

Zenya:

AggieCouple:

 Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

That is creepy to me but even so if someone is rude to you then I think it's fair to nicely ask for a please.  Your being obnoxious about it would really piss me off as a parent. You're certainly old enough to know better.  

That is pretty judgmental of you to call another person's culture creepy.  I can't imagine the flames if someone called a bris creepy.   

 

I have to agree.  Zenya, it *is* how it's done in her culture. 

And I have to agree with Grace.  Too many 4-5 year old boys have done that to me.  Not in a rude way, but definitely in the "I'm a dude and already can't take care of myself, can you do it for me?" kind of way.

 

Baby4OT

brideonoct1:

Why was it ok for YOU to be rude to him? You model the behavior you want to see (and receive). You're the adult. Your answer to him was mean.

This.

Was he the picture of politeness? No, of course not. He's FIVE. Should he have been corrected? Yes, but not by snidely asking him what you should do about it. You were equally rude and immature to him. I'm sure that's why you got the WTF look. I would have given it to you too. Had you said, "How do you ask nicely?" to my child I wouldn't have batted an eye and would have been totally fine with it. You could have made your point a lot better to him that way.

lsufan

Well, Evan is a pretty polite kid, but I do still have to remind him sometimes to ask for what he wants instead of just hinting at it.  I don't think he'd ever plop his foot in someone's lap, but we've had instances where he tells me his shoe is untied.  In that situation, I remind him that he needs to ask a question if there's something he wants me to do, and he usually asks nicely if I'll tie it for him.  

As for the mom's reaction, I think it all depends on the tone you used when you asked him what he wanted you to do.  If it was a sarcastic, annoyed tone, then I can understand the mom's WTF reaction.  But I do think it's possible to ask that same question without being mean about it.  I don't mind other family members correcting my kids, but I expect that they'll do it in a loving way.

Zenya

Anyway, I don't see what's wrong with disagreeing with aspects of a person's culture.  There are creepy/distasteful elements in all cultures.  It's all very subjective.

to me saying that a child is completely submissive/bowing their heads before they can speak is odd.  whatever.  

shopgirl78

My 5 year old girl gets demand-y & whiney when she wants something.   I too say "how do you ask?"  I do the same with my son.  

I agree that its rude to put your foot in a guests lap but the way you responded to him could have also been rude. 

I have no issues with your culture bowing to its elders.  And FWIW, she but "submissive" in quotes as just to describe the behaviors, leading one to believe that its for lack of a better word.  I think she meant respect.   

BubblyToes

Zenya:

Anyway, I don't see what's wrong with disagreeing with aspects of a person's culture.  There are creepy/distasteful elements in all cultures.  It's all very subjective.

to me saying that a child is completely submissive/bowing their heads before they can speak is odd.  whatever.  

Exactly.

Treating women like second class citizens is standard procedure in some cultures.  That doesn't make it right.  And that doesn't make me a bad person for thinking that's hideous.

IMO, there are aspects of most cultures that are antiquated and humiliating.

EdithBouvierBeale

there is a good this horrific 5 year old wasn't raised in a Texas Dojo....

 

JOEBunny

EdithBouvierBeale:

AggieCouple:

I'm pretty surprised by the responses.  I'm around a lot of kids,, and I've never had a child put his foot in my lap and demand service, especially one that age, and who didn't know me very well.  We see them maybe once or twice a year.  

His behavior isn't exactly what I was questioning, but the fact that his mom didn't correct him, and his parents obviously thought it was normal and entirely appropriate, which was bizarre to me and H.  And, that's why I asked.  Because I know there is a wide range of POV's on this board, pearl clutchers and otherwise.  Also, honestly, I do think ML, through either being a girl or having a mild personality or both, has spoiled us, and I may have to swing TB's foot off someone's lap someday.  But, I WOULD take his foot off someone's lap.

The "submissive by 2" was just a phrase, but yeah, you absolutely learn your place as a child vs. an adult, especially when it comes to adult relatives. There are all kinds of phrases, acts, and gestures that are signs of respect, and most kids are taught them by the age of 2 or 3.  Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

how charming!!

I just moved you two houses down from JoeBunny in my nestie neighborhood mockup

I would prefer she live next door.  My current neighbors kid is 5, and he is a jerk.  I would much prefer Aggie's well behaved kids. 

I find the lack of cultural respect of a few people on this board to be really disturbing and ignorant.   Yikes. 

EdithBouvierBeale

JOEBunny:

EdithBouvierBeale:

AggieCouple:

I'm pretty surprised by the responses.  I'm around a lot of kids,, and I've never had a child put his foot in my lap and demand service, especially one that age, and who didn't know me very well.  We see them maybe once or twice a year.  

His behavior isn't exactly what I was questioning, but the fact that his mom didn't correct him, and his parents obviously thought it was normal and entirely appropriate, which was bizarre to me and H.  And, that's why I asked.  Because I know there is a wide range of POV's on this board, pearl clutchers and otherwise.  Also, honestly, I do think ML, through either being a girl or having a mild personality or both, has spoiled us, and I may have to swing TB's foot off someone's lap someday.  But, I WOULD take his foot off someone's lap.

The "submissive by 2" was just a phrase, but yeah, you absolutely learn your place as a child vs. an adult, especially when it comes to adult relatives. There are all kinds of phrases, acts, and gestures that are signs of respect, and most kids are taught them by the age of 2 or 3.  Both my kids learned the proper way to greet their elders before they learned their first words (clasp hands, bow heads).  It's just how it's done.  

how charming!!

I just moved you two houses down from JoeBunny in my nestie neighborhood mockup

I would prefer she live next door.  My current neighbors kid is 5, and he is a jerk.  I would much prefer Aggie's well behaved kids. 

Joe, I won't believe it. There ARE no jerks in utopia. (they're in the badlands with the single moms and the un/underemployed.)