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Working Moms
If you got pregnant would you keep it or abort? And, how does being a WM
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Re: If you got pregnant would you keep it or abort? And, how does being a WM
Spenjamins, you are a piece of crap. People like you are the reason our country is going to heII.
I respect the opinions of everyone... and understand how it's such a personal choice.
I would never abort now... unless the pg would pose a risk to my own life - I could never abort a child - since I am a married woman with children already- i just could not even consider it - even though i would be VERY upset if I got pg at this point in my life... VERY upset..... but we'd make it work. We made it work with twins - which was more than we thought we could afford/deal with.... we could make anything work. I could not end a life that I would always compare to the 3 children I am raising and wonder what would have been... knowing that I ended it.
I have problems with people using abortion as bcp... i'm pro choice- and sure, that means the woman has the choice- but that doesn't mean I don't think she's awful to use abortion as birt control over and over... once = OK... a mistake happened --- more than that and it's just plain irresponsible.... Just as a woman has the CHOICE to smoke during pregnancy (it's not illegal) I will certainly judge a woman who chooses to do it.
working has NOTHING to do with my feelings... nor does religion.
I don't think people are saying that such a woman is any less entitled to make that decision, just that they would expect the decision making process to pull at the heart strings a bit more...
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
But I actually think posters are saying they are disgusted that a married woman with kids who has financial security would even consider an abortion as a valid choice. Because then it would be a matter of convenience, not "necessity". No abortions for rich people anyone?
Some people believe that abortion is akin to murder. In our country of choice, it is their right to believe that. So, why is it then so unbelievable that they would call into question why a rich, married woman (who as such likely has a support system and access to healthcare) would feel the need to have an abortion - when there are other choices available (that don't involve parenting an unwanted child)?
I don't think it is a matter of whether or not a rich person has the 'right' to have an abortion, just that it is less understandable when they do than someone else who less less access to information, support and health care.
Either way, I know we won't agree. I do have to say though - you've done a fine job of keeping your cool and I appreciate your well thought-out posts/arguments (even if I disagree)
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
get your tubes tied then.
Make a pregnancy ticker
I'm going to point out that thebump has a lot of self-rightious bitches who like to think they are the greatest mommies ever to walk the planet that are talking sh+ about this post elsewhere. That's how I found it, and I wanted to point out some reasons to be "pro-choice".
I support whatever decision you choose, AND it is absolutely none of my biz.
I guess many people aren't aware that the reason abortion is legal in this country is because when it wasn't, women died. All the time. There was a time, not so long ago, when almost everyone had a sister, a friend, a cousin, a mother, an aunt, who had died because they had to risk a dangerous illegal abortion. Nobody thinks abortion is fantastic, but it's kind of like c-sections- when it's needed, it's a lifesaver. 1/3 of the women in the US who have had abortions are already mothers. The idea that only unwed, destitute women or uneducated teens with no options, or women who have already sacrified in their lives in pursuit of their career or education, is absurd. There are as many reasons to not have a child as there are to have one, and everyone's reasons, either way, are very valid. It's unkind, cruel, and unjust to judge or try to prevent someone from making this very difficult choice. If more women could freely admit their previous abortions were not a mistake, instead of living in shame and secrecy, there might not be such a stigma. But that is the double-edged sword, you can't admit what you didn't want anyone to know in the first place.
The mother of Margret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood died in her 18th pregnancy, prompting her daughter to spend the rest of her own life challenging the laws of her time to prevent this kind of loss from being so frequent. I guess women have forgotten about a time before birth control, as well. Birth control was once looked upon with the same stigma. It's one thing to have one, two, three, or even four desired children. Imagine being pregnant from the age of 17 until in your late 40s, or until you died, with twelve or fourteen or eighteen unwanted children, and all the health problems that would accompany that life for most women.
When you have the legal option and take it for granted, it's much easier to preach about what other women should or shouldn't do.
And for the record, I am determined that this is going to be my one and ONLY child, and people keep telling me "oh, you HAVE to have another one." No, I don't HAVE to, and it's incredibly offensive to me to be told by strangers, nurses, doctors, and family that I HAVE to have another child I can love this one, and afford to provide for him. I don't HAVE to endure another miserable pregnancy, wreck my life, my finances, my body, my marriage, just to provide a sibling or another kid if I don't WANT to. That's my right, and it's your right, and none of us should take it for granted!!!
I was about to post on this board and do an intro since Im a newly WM, used to be SAHM. Wow what a night to choose.
I agree, get your tubes tied or use birth control or have your husband get a vasectomy. The fact that you said "its on our list of things to do" is pathetic. Really? So you arent willing to take the precautions you need to in order to avoid an unwanted pregnancy and think having an abortion should be readily available when you have an ooops?
I dont know how many women posted from Canada, but here, an abortion is readily available. That does not mean that women should be having them whenever they feel like it just because. BE RESPONSIBLE. You keep steering away from the subject and making this a discussion about how adortions should be viewed overall in your country. THATS NOT WHAT YOU ASKED. You asked if we would abort NOW in our lives.
You listed the FIRST reason for wanting to abort if you got pregnant now and it was convienence. Thats what makes everyone disturbed. If your looking for convienence get an IUD. Make birth control a priority instead of on your "To Do" list.
This post has nothing to do with how abortion is viewed as a whole or the stigma blah blah blah. Its the fact that your not taking action against an unwanted pregnancy.
BTW, I am pro-choice. Would never have an abortion - now. I had one when I was 16. I regret it and wished I had thought it through more and realized what resources were available to me. We were practicing safe sex and it still happened. I didnt just hope for the best and then do it out of convienence. I had pressure from my father to have an abortion and my bf was abusive, alcoholic and into drugs. It was not a life I wanted to bring a child into. It was at 6weeks. I would have been giving a child the exact childhood I had and that was not something I was ready to do. I regretted it the day after and everyday since. When I was 19 I got pregnant with my steady bf, condom broke. We decided to keep it. We lost that baby in a miscarriage at 8weeks. It was absolutely heartbreaking. Knowing what I know about pregnancy and have my own child now, I could never have an abortion. We would make it work. There are resources.
I feel women should have the choice - but the choice of birth control is also available -- TO YOU. I dont understand why YOU are not choosing a permanent birth control to avoid putting yourself in that situation when you know you dont want more kids?
You all do realize that *nothing* is 100% except abstinence, which is not a viable option for a happily married couple (nor should it be). Just because you're done having children doesn't mean you have to or want to take permanent measures. There are side effects to some and no one should have to accept that. And, you can be otherwise responsible and still have an opps.
That being said, I respect a woman's right to chose, even if I don't agree with her or wouldn't make the same choice myself. However, if I was 40+ and PG, I would probably also abort. It's really easy to say in your 20s or 30s that you'd make it work, but as you get closer to 40 (especially if you already have other children) that changes. First, you have to consider the very real prospect that your child could be born with birth defects. If you already have other children, that could drastically change the dynamic of your family. I don't really think it's for anyone to say that you should have to accept that.
Second, you are looking at the prospect of raising children into you 60's or having a very large gap between your kids. I don't think everyone should have to be OK with that. It's great if you are, but I wouldn't lots of people have valid reasons not to be.
And, honestly, it doesn't matter if anyone's reasons are valid to you. Choice means you get to chose for yourself.
This really isn't a prochoice vs. prolife argument. I think most of the replies are by people who consider themselves prochoice. No one is arguing to take away the option. I think many are just shocked at how nonchalant Spens is being about the concept of doing it herself rather than just being more proactive about preventing it in the first place.
Edit: And yes, I know this is her right. And I believe in her freedom of choice. But it is my right to be surprised and express that surprise.
I can agree with you on that. Sadly, in my state and several surrounding states, the people who need them the most and the families who would benefit the most, have little access to them. They also have limited access to birth control. There are many areas here where there is little to no public transportation, making doctors a virtual impossibility. Even if they get hooked up with an organization that has volunteer drivers, add to that laws that require them to travel far, and stay overnight, sometimes two nights, and you are talking about over $1,000 for a person who can't even get to the clinic on their own. Might as well ask them for the moon.
Even if people live in urban areas, there are some cultural aspects that impact peoples use of birth control. I think very few people use abortion as primary birth control, even saying you would and actually doing it are two different things. I have done a poll before on the parenting board and about 20-25% of the people on there have had abortions. I have never had to make that decision, and I am grateful for that.
I have been thinking about this post all night, and it's (obviously, from the nearly 3000 views) garnered a lot of attention. I do think it's a pretty civil and well-argued conversation considering the controversial nature of the topic, but it's been bothering me, and I think I can now articulate why.
I consider myself pro-choice from any legal perspective, but I cannot think of any situation where I would personally use that choice to abort. I think that the societal ramifications of outlawing abortions are dangerous and complex.
That said, my problem with this post is that we're not really talking about legality (since most of the responses have been from people who identify as pro-choice), but social stigma. And, yes, I believe there should be a social stigma.
Social pressure is an important part of any society, and it helps to temper actions, shape concepts of humanity, and make day-to-day interactions possible. Just because I believe something should be legal doesn't mean that I think it should be stigma-free. Just because I believe people have choices doesn't mean that I have to think every choice they make is the right one. I don't think a woman deserves to be harassed, abused, or tormented over her decision to have an abortion, but making it legal does not mean that you make it judgment-free.
I don't think it should be illegal to cheat on your spouse, but I do think that it should be judged harshly by society. I don't think it should be illegal to binge drink and smoke during pregnancy, but I do think it is a bad decision. It has some parallels with free speech debates. I whole-heartedly believe in the right to free speech, but that does not mean the right to speak freely without consequences. If you are standing on a street corner yelling racial slurs, you have that right, but the people around you have the right to yell back, think poorly of you, and judge you as someone they don't want to be around.
Choices are rights, but they come with consequences. I disagree with the idea that abortion should be de-stigmatized. I hope that no one thinks that's what I mean when I say I'm pro-choice.
So under what circumstances should a woman not be judged for having an abortion? What factors make it a reasonable choice? Are we talking finances, age, single vs. married?
What?
If we're looking at finances, age, single v. married, we're already judging. We're using criteria to judge. That's what human beings do. It's what we do when we judge a movie, a soft drink, or the moral choices of another human being. I don't think there are any specific criteria that makes an abortion a "reasonable choice." Instead, there are hundreds and hundreds of individual combinations of factors, and society uses a complex lens of analysis to discern between them. Again, this is not what makes an abortion legal, but it does change the way that people view one.
Earlier, you asked if you should judge your patients who go against advice and continue to indulge in risky behavior that puts them at risk of losing a limb or dying early. I think that just by asking that question, you've clearly already judged them. By positing that question in the way you have, you are pointing out the irresponsibility and harmful nature of their choices.
They should be judged and spend the rest of their lives crying and hand-wringing over it, apparently. Oh, and they should be poor and single.
I'm appalled at all of the posters here--especially those who call themselves pro-choice-- who think Spenjamins is "a piece of crap" because she thinks abortion should be legal and readily available. Whether or not having one is a point of "pride" (which is so patently absurd that I can't believe it's an issue) or shame or regret or whatever shouldn't even be part of the discussion.
I don't think that women need to spend the rest of their lives wringing their hands over it, and I don't think it's anyone's business if they had an abortion or not. But I do think that if someone self-discloses that she's had an abortion, it's absurd to think that people aren't going to have some judgment on that decision. We judge people's decisions every day. I judge when someone decides to take up two parking spaces instead of one. I judge when someone slaps a child across the face in the grocery store. Does that mean I wish those people miserable lives? Of course not.
As far as being appalled at the people who are calling themselves pro-choice, if being pro-choice means that I have to think that having an abortion should require as much decision-making and scrutiny as picking up a gallon of milk on the way home, then I guess I'm not.
This is going to be up to the individual who has the potential to be the judge. It really comes down to what you believe the act really is. Either you believe that life begins at conception or you don't. Either you believe that it is sad (and perhaps wrong) to eliminate that life or you don't. Of course those that believe that it is ending a life want a stigma to remain.
The reason that I am prochoice is because I understand that the two different sides will never agree and there really is no compromise. Therefore, leave it up to the individual.
So as for me, short of major defects incompatible with life, maternal danger, or extreme maternal distress due to a rape, I will judge. I do understand there are really extreme situations where it probably would be best but I just think it is really selfish to out of convenience. At any age, marital status, point of training, or financial situation. But I am sure there are other people who would have different "lines" and that is their right.
Let's say that a family has perfect life, just the right number of kids and a dog that they loved and adored. But they didn't get around to spaying the dog just yet. Said dog gets pregnant and gives birth. Then the parents gather the kids in the bathroom, fill up the tub, and as a family, drown all the puppies. Oh and tell the kids not to be upset, be confident and happy with your choice cause it would be a real pain in the a$$ to care and find homes for them. Would you judge that? I imagine this is kind of how many are viewing what you are saying.
And as I said before, simply because someone appears to be financially and emotionally able to raise an "ooops" baby does not mean they are. Although I will stress that I don't think it matters. If someone doesn't want a child for whatever reason, I won't judge them for having an abortion. I think if we removed the shame and stigma along with improving education and access, more women would be empowered to make that choice. Which would be the right one for them.
I have to say I find it hilarious how you post something like this, basically wanting to get people all riled up. I really dont get you sometimes. You act like just because people have a different opinion than you, that there is something wrong with them. You post it on money matters because you know everyone over there kisses your as* & will agree with you. You are always, always just fishing for people to do exactly that !
It's always the same ol' song & dance with you..its soooooooo tired !
Currently Reading: Don Quixote by Miguel De Cervantes
I don't recall anyone suggesting that being pro-choice = bolding above. I am suggesting that it means abortion should be legal and available, and however great or minimal the anguish in making that decision is between the woman in question and her conscience. Claiming to be pro-choice with the qualifier that one must feel really bad about it is absurd. Who polices how difficult or easy that decision is, and on what criteria would such policing be based? And how is it relevant?
Wow, you said it perfectly. I'm glad you were able to articulate what I was trying to get across.
And spenjamins, stop trying to act like it's a rich vs. poor and old vs. young issue. I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that we are appalled at your flippant attitude about the whole thing, and the ease with which you were able to have an abortion or plan to have them in the future because it's convenient for you.
If you posted on the money board that you hadn't gotten around to putting money in savings, yet you were on your way to get a mani/pedi, you would be flamed like crazy for being an irresponsible idiot. But somehow it is fine for you to put off sterilization, knowing you would abort any children you conceived, merely because you "haven't gotten around to it." You're missing the point of the uproar you've caused, and I don't think it's on accident.
I really think its time for you to take your ball and go home.
Your not going to change our minds and you have made a pretty clear statement and now been judged for it. It wasnt that you've had an abortion - its your attitude in this entire post and the fact that you started this post to ruffle feathers. We get your point, you obviously dont get ours. I think its done.
I never said that I was trying to dictate how the woman who made the choice should feel about it. I said that trying to remove the stigma from it and expecting others to not judge the action (and not necessarily the person, though I think the two are sometimes closely connected) was absurd. How you feel about your choice is up to you; how I feel about it is up to me, and how society views it (and thus stigmatizes it) is up to a cultural norm created by the narrative of those voices. The suggestion that those collective voices are wrong to stigmatize abortion is one with which I take issue.
You ask "who polices how difficult or easy that decision is, and on what criteria would such policing be based?" I see policing as inherently legal terminology, and I am not arguing from a legal viewpoint. (I think abortion should be legal, and therefore no one should be "policing" it. Women should have access to this legal procedure). Again, there seems to be an inability to discern between the legality of the issue and the cultural/moral view of it. Like many, many issues in the world, this is one that does not have a blanket "set of criteria" that makes it okay or not okay from a moral standing.
There's plenty of options. If you get your tubes tied or DH gets a vasectomy, both of those procedures can be reversed. If the reversal didnt work, there's IVF. Adoption. Surrogacy. The list goes on.
Honestly, I think someone who is feels so strongly about not having any more children to the point they would abort a pregnancy that does not take steps towards permanent birth control is making a very selfish decision. Yes, of course there is no such thing as 100% effective birth control, but the chances of conceiving are statistically very, very small.
Ditto to whoever said you should take your ball and go home. You're just being obnoxious now. Yes, abortion should be legal. No, it shouldn't be used as birth control. It's not that hard to wrap your brain around that.
Well, my DS is only 12 weeks old! And we've had oral sex, but I'm seriously too paranoid about getting pregnant again and have no desire to go back on any kind of hormonal methods.
Spenjamins, you know I like you but you really are getting ridiculous here with how you are twisting what everyone is saying. It's hypocritical of you to post on MM complaining how crazy everyone else is and then you pull sh!t like this. WIth behavior like this, it's definitely the pot calling the kettle black. They're right. It's time to call it a day and take a breather.
Actually there are A LOT of people waiting in line to adopt/foster out of the system. But TPO (termination of parental rights) isn't very easy and that's the system failing them - which makes it hard to place the child with a forever family. With that said if the mother would have made an adoption plan for the child RIGHT after birth they would never had ended up in the system in the first place. There are MANY adoption agencies out there and they don't "pressure you parent" they help to council you into making the right choice to either parent or make a parenting plan for your child.
Im one of those peoples waiting in line to foster/adopt one of those unwanted pregnancies in fact I already have one "unwanted pregnancy" adoption in my home right now. She's one amazing child and I thank God EVERYDAY that her mother allowed her to live. Im 100% pro-life and Im looking at the reason I am right now...her name is Kate and she's a person too.
"I have four children. Two are adopted. I forget which two. -Bob Constantine
"All for Love,' a Saviour prayed 'Abba Father have Your way. Though they know not what they do...Let the Cross draw men to You...."
Your POV is kind of confusing to me. You are so strongly against having another child that you could easily have an abortion with no emotion involved at all, but on the other hand you want to stay on the pill because you might want another child in the future. I would think someone who felt so strongly would not have a change of heart, especially someone who is already in their 40s. I don't get it.