I am kinda floored by this post. I am 100% pro-choice from a legal perspective, but as a mother there is not a chance in he!! I could abort. As responsible adult, even if an opps happened, even if we were broke, there is no way, no how. Its like "well kid, you were the lucky one, but the other one, wrong time, wrong place." WTF.
Wow, just wow.
I am confused by this post. Are you pro-choice for women who are not mothers only? Poor women? When is abortion OK? Rape?
I would abort for several reasons: convenience, birth defects, and obviously any sort of ooops. Yep, another child at this point in my life would be a pain in the a$$. And it would have been a bigger pain in the a$$ when I was in my 20s. So what? Luckily, I don't have to choose to rearrange my life to deal with an unwanted child.
Women have abortions for lots of reasons. Being pro-choice means THEY get to choose the reasons, not you.
sorry spenjamins, i gotta ask..you dont want any more kids , so why not get your tubes tied or your dh gets a vasectomy ? that seems more logical to me ?
its one thing to go through those measures and be the 1 in a thousand or whatever that ends up pregnant and then aborting..its a whole other thing what you are talking about in my opinion. i agree with many of your views on things but am very confused by your posts here & btw, i am pro-life for myself & pro-choice for the rest of the world but that doesnt mean i cant still have my opinions & i do tend to think people that treat abortion like it's birth control are pieces of shi* !
Haven't gotten around to it. And I don't think an abortion in the unlikely case I got pregnant would be some big moral decision or an agonized one.
I think women who have multiple abortions shouldn't be judged any more than women who ahve a bunch of "ooops" and keep on having kids.
I'm sort of lost on why choosing an abortion isn't being responsible. A baby isn't a punishment--or it shouldn't be. To me, selecting to abort an unwanted pregnancy is much more responsible than giving birth to a child whose existance you begrudge.
Adoption plans aren't exactly easy--there is a lot of pressure to parent. Not to mention the confusion for the older children.
Expecting a married couple to obstain from sex isn't reasonable. And EVERY form of birth control--even "permanent" ones--has a failure rate.
Until there is a reversible, 100% effective form of birth control, on-demand abortion must remain legal. Whether you decide to get one is up to you.
I absolutely agree abortion should always remain legal, without question. But I disagree with those that think, it's ok to have abortion after abortion after abortion just because you can. Fine, you dont want kids. fine you dont want any MORE kids. fine, your life is in the crapper & its not right to bring a kid into that situation, but for heavens sakes, how about practicing safe sex ? how about taking measures to prevent pregnancy? It's not that hard, It's actually harder to get pregnant than it is to NOT get pregnant.
Spenjamins, serious question, do you think the stigma CAN be removed given the religion factor of this issue? I don't view the issue through that lens, but many, many do. How do we as a nation get there?
Spenjamins, serious question, do you think the stigma CAN be removed given the religion factor of this issue? I don't view the issue through that lens, but many, many do. How do we as a nation get there?
Difficult. I would love to see more women come out and talk about the process and their decision to have an abortion - that might at least move the discussion foward.
I am kinda floored by this post. I am 100% pro-choice from a legal perspective, but as a mother there is not a chance in he!! I could abort. As responsible adult, even if an opps happened, even if we were broke, there is no way, no how. Its like "well kid, you were the lucky one, but the other one, wrong time, wrong place." WTF.
Wow, just wow.
I am confused by this post. Are you pro-choice for women who are not mothers only? Poor women? When is abortion OK? Rape?
I would abort for several reasons: convenience, birth defects, and obviously any sort of ooops. Yep, another child at this point in my life would be a pain in the a$$. And it would have been a bigger pain in the a$$ when I was in my 20s. So what? Luckily, I don't have to choose to rearrange my life to deal with an unwanted child.
Women have abortions for lots of reasons. Being pro-choice means THEY get to choose the reasons, not you.
sorry spenjamins, i gotta ask..you dont want any more kids , so why not get your tubes tied or your dh gets a vasectomy ? that seems more logical to me ?
its one thing to go through those measures and be the 1 in a thousand or whatever that ends up pregnant and then aborting..its a whole other thing what you are talking about in my opinion. i agree with many of your views on things but am very confused by your posts here & btw, i am pro-life for myself & pro-choice for the rest of the world but that doesnt mean i cant still have my opinions & i do tend to think people that treat abortion like it's birth control are pieces of shi* !
Haven't gotten around to it. And I don't think an abortion in the unlikely case I got pregnant would be some big moral decision or an agonized one.
I think women who have multiple abortions shouldn't be judged any more than women who ahve a bunch of "ooops" and keep on having kids.
It was another abortion post on the PC&E Board. So I was curious if being a WM influenced one's decision.
For me, I would absolutely have an abortion if I got pregnant because I don't want any more children. Working plays a small role in that our family has a good schedule and routine and I like the balance. Adding a child would disrupt it.
Moneywise - I could be a gazillioniare and I wouldn't want another child.
I participated in this discussion over there, and I haven't read all these responses, but I just wanted to say - I assume if you don't want more children, you or your husband has taken permanent measures to ensure that you won't get pregnant again?
To answer your question, no, I'd never abort a baby. Ever. I don't want another for a year or two, which is why I'm on the pill, but if I were to get pregnant, I'd welcome that child very happily.
We're looking to buy our first house soon, and we certainly can't afford two in daycare right now, but we'd figure it out.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Ok, sorry, I see that you "haven't gotten around to it."
I second the posters who said "wow. just wow."
I always like to see you on this board since you're a happy, confident working mom, which is what I am, as well. I think there need to be more happy working moms out there.
But this post really has me feeling differently toward you. No hard feelings, whatever. I just find it really sad that people think how you do. Yes, abortion should be legal, but I also think there should be a stigma associated with it. It's a terrible act.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I'm sort of lost on why choosing an abortion isn't being responsible. A baby isn't a punishment--or it shouldn't be. To me, selecting to abort an unwanted pregnancy is much more responsible than giving birth to a child whose existance you begrudge.
Adoption plans aren't exactly easy--there is a lot of pressure to parent. Not to mention the confusion for the older children.
Expecting a married couple to obstain from sex isn't reasonable. And EVERY form of birth control--even "permanent" ones--has a failure rate.
Until there is a reversible, 100% effective form of birth control, on-demand abortion must remain legal. Whether you decide to get one is up to you.
I absolutely agree abortion should always remain legal, without question. But I disagree with those that think, it's ok to have abortion after abortion after abortion just because you can. Fine, you dont want kids. fine you dont want any MORE kids. fine, your life is in the crapper & its not right to bring a kid into that situation, but for heavens sakes, how about practicing safe sex ? how about taking measures to prevent pregnancy? It's not that hard, It's actually harder to get pregnant than it is to NOT get pregnant.
Easy to say, much harder for some women to do - for many different reasons. In a perfect world everyone would eat their veggies, avoid alcohol and drug dependence, see their doctor regularly, take their meds, use birth control and exercise.
Ok, sorry, I see that you "haven't gotten around to it."
I second the posters who said "wow. just wow."
I always like to see you on this board since you're a happy, confident working mom, which is what I am, as well. I think there need to be more happy working moms out there.
But this post really has me feeling differently toward you. No hard feelings, whatever. I just find it really sad that people think how you do. Yes, abortion should be legal, but I also think there should be a stigma associated with it. It's a terrible act.
I don't think it is a terrible act at all. I think it is a choice. And thank goodness women have it.
I am kinda floored by this post. I am 100% pro-choice from a legal perspective, but as a mother there is not a chance in he!! I could abort. As responsible adult, even if an opps happened, even if we were broke, there is no way, no how. Its like "well kid, you were the lucky one, but the other one, wrong time, wrong place." WTF.
Wow, just wow.
I am glad someone else said it.
I can understand, if carrying a pregnancy has health consequences for mother or child, there are hard choices to be made. If the quality of life of the child is in question, soul searching needs to take place - I get it.
But aborting a baby because it will cramp your lifestyle? I don't understand.
If you don't want to raise the child - there are many, many, many open arms out there waiting to adopt.
Part of being a grown up is accepting the consequences of your actions. I have a lot of respect for those ladies who are abstaining until permanent measures are taken. Way to be responsible.
Accepting responsibility for one's actions includes abortion as a viable choice, IMO. I would never judge any woman for an abortion - I don't care what the reason is. I also never judge women who have had multiple abortions. Better to end a pregnancy than to bring more kids in to the world that people don't want.
IMO, abortions should be easier to obtain and we need to remove the stigma from it.
And where are the people waiting in line to adopt all of the foster babies and children we have in the system? This kind of reasoning is completely flawed.
You are entitled to your opinion same as I am entitled to mine.
I understand that you disagree, but IMHO, abortion isn't birth control.
I would hope that anyone having an abortion would not take the decision lightly. Even if I disagree with a woman's end-choice, I have to accept that they made the right choice for themselves. There is a difference between disliking a person and disliking an action.
IMHO, there will always be a stigma attached to abortion - how can there not be? With micro-preemies surviving earlier and earlier, the line between abortion and murder (as some would say) will continue to be blurred. It isn't like women who have gotten an abortion are required to broadcast that fact. If you can live with the choice, that is your concern, you (general you) don't necessarily need to broadcast it to the world.
As far as the kids in the foster system - many of them (sadly) have special needs or other care-factors that would require more time, attention or heartache than your 'average' child. If you wouldn't judge someone for aborting a special needs baby, you can't judge them for passing over one in the adoption process. I also can't fault a potential mom for wanting to raise her child from infancy vs. jumping right in at an older age.
I have consistently heard the pro choice argument that "No one thinks abortion is a *good* thing, just that it is a necessary option at times" but, I am getting a completely different vibe than that from you.
As I said, you are entitled to your opinions just as others are entitled to theirs. But, you seem to think that anyone who isn't pro-abortion (different than pro-choice) is living in the dark ages, and that confuses me. You can choose your opinion and I'll choose mine
I'm sort of lost on why choosing an abortion isn't being responsible. A baby isn't a punishment--or it shouldn't be. To me, selecting to abort an unwanted pregnancy is much more responsible than giving birth to a child whose existance you begrudge.
Adoption plans aren't exactly easy--there is a lot of pressure to parent. Not to mention the confusion for the older children.
Expecting a married couple to obstain from sex isn't reasonable. And EVERY form of birth control--even "permanent" ones--has a failure rate.
Until there is a reversible, 100% effective form of birth control, on-demand abortion must remain legal. Whether you decide to get one is up to you.
I absolutely agree abortion should always remain legal, without question. But I disagree with those that think, it's ok to have abortion after abortion after abortion just because you can. Fine, you dont want kids. fine you dont want any MORE kids. fine, your life is in the crapper & its not right to bring a kid into that situation, but for heavens sakes, how about practicing safe sex ? how about taking measures to prevent pregnancy? It's not that hard, It's actually harder to get pregnant than it is to NOT get pregnant.
Easy to say, much harder for some women to do - for many different reasons. In a perfect world everyone would eat their veggies, avoid alcohol and drug dependence, see their doctor regularly, take their meds, use birth control and exercise.
In real life, it doesn't happen. Multifactorial.
yes, there are many many reasons women have abortions. but i'm betting most of them are not skipping off meerily to their 3rd or 4th or 5th one with a smile on their face & if they are , they're pieces of *** ( in my opinion of course ).
You know - I was praying that this wouldn't take an ugly turn.
I guess I was wrong.
I'm always up for a good debate. I disagree that it turned ugly. People have different opinions - so what. A topic like this is bound to get strong opinions on both sides - better put your big girl panties on before coming in!
No one is saying, "Spenjamins, you are a horrible person for aborting your child. I hate you." That would be rude. (and fwiw, even if I disagree with her choice, I have to give her props for honesty and putting it all out there - not always an easy thing to do on a controversial topic). They are just discussing the topic and the million different factors and angles it can be viewed from.
I'm sort of lost on why choosing an abortion isn't being responsible. A baby isn't a punishment--or it shouldn't be. To me, selecting to abort an unwanted pregnancy is much more responsible than giving birth to a child whose existance you begrudge.
Adoption plans aren't exactly easy--there is a lot of pressure to parent. Not to mention the confusion for the older children.
Expecting a married couple to obstain from sex isn't reasonable. And EVERY form of birth control--even "permanent" ones--has a failure rate.
Until there is a reversible, 100% effective form of birth control, on-demand abortion must remain legal. Whether you decide to get one is up to you.
I absolutely agree abortion should always remain legal, without question. But I disagree with those that think, it's ok to have abortion after abortion after abortion just because you can. Fine, you dont want kids. fine you dont want any MORE kids. fine, your life is in the crapper & its not right to bring a kid into that situation, but for heavens sakes, how about practicing safe sex ? how about taking measures to prevent pregnancy? It's not that hard, It's actually harder to get pregnant than it is to NOT get pregnant.
Easy to say, much harder for some women to do - for many different reasons. In a perfect world everyone would eat their veggies, avoid alcohol and drug dependence, see their doctor regularly, take their meds, use birth control and exercise.
In real life, it doesn't happen. Multifactorial.
yes, there are many many reasons women have abortions. but i'm betting most of them are not skipping off meerily to their 3rd or 4th or 5th one with a smile on their face & if they are , they're pieces of *** ( in my opinion of course ).
IShould I be judging my patients who won't take their diabetes medication even if it means they are going to lose a limb and die early? After years of telling them to be compliant?
That is what I am saying - people are "irresponsible" in all sorts of ways. It isn't easy for all women to be healthy and take care of themselves. That's why I don't judge.
I truly respect everyone's freedom of choice and that each decision is very personal, but I can't say I would agree with that choice. I think that after having a close friend need to terminate a pregnancy due to fatal abnormalities, another close friend lose their baby to lissencephaly at 3 months and my best friend go into labor early at 21 weeks and lose her babies - I could never look those people in the eye if I decided I didn't want another child because it wasn't convenient. You can tell people not to judge but most of us will judge - and I think for good reason. But of course, none of that prevents you from doing what you choose.
I would not abort. I do not have easy pregnancy and this one has been brutal so far, so I've already decided that this is my last pregnancy. However, if I got pregnant, even if there was something wrong, I would keep the baby. I personally don't think that's my place to decide.
Should I be judging my patients who won't take their diabetes medication even if it means they are going to lose a limb and die early? After years of telling them to be compliant?
That is what I am saying - people are "irresponsible" in all sorts of ways. It isn't easy for all women to be healthy and take care of themselves. That's why I don't judge.
Yes, I would judge those patients, but I guess their problems are not my problems.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
I truly respect everyone's freedom of choice and that each decision is very personal, but I can't say I would agree with that choice. I think that after having a close friend need to terminate a pregnancy due to fatal abnormalities, another close friend lose their baby to lissencephaly at 3 months and my best friend go into labor early at 21 weeks and lose her babies - I could never look those people in the eye if I decided I didn't want another child because it wasn't convenient. You can tell people not to judge but most of us will judge - and I think for good reason. But of course, none of that prevents you from doing what you choose.
When I was going through infertility treatments, a very close friend of mine went through multiple proceedures to abort a very unwanted ectopic pregnancy. That occurred when she had unprotected sex. With someone she said she never wanted to have sex with.
Although I very much wanted to be a mother, it never occurred to me to think she shouldn't have an abortion (ectopic aside--the chick would be a trainwreck of a mom and she knows it). I was only annoyed that she made such a big deal out of it and asked me to feed her cat while she was in the hospital.
The whole myth of the woman who uses abortion for birth control is right up there with the Welfare queen who drives a Caddy. It makes you feel justified in judging, but doesn't represent the real individuals in the situation.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
Keep it for sure! We're planning to start TTC in December so if I were to get pregnant sooner so be it. After we have one more we're done. 2 is enough for us. Being a WM doesn't really play a factor in my decision.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
While pregnancy prevention would be the primary goal, I wish more women with unwanted pregnancies WOULD consider abortion as an valid option. I wish that they would be much easier to obtain.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
I'm like most of the women on here in that I wouldn't choose abortion for myself even though I do not want any more children. But I agree with Spenjamins that it should be a widely available option. Sadly in my line of work I see people every day who should NOT have kids and I also see people who are the PRODUCT of parents who should not have had kids.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
Well, because it's a baby..yes, yes I know you'll probably say its not a baby yet, its a ball of cells, blah, blah, blah..yes a ball of cells that would most likely otherwise become a baby..the woman who is carrying its , baby..a part of her, that she created. I get that for some it's an easy decision..I admit, if I was 16 & pregnant, raped & got pregnant, completely broke & homeless & got pregnant, an abortion would be the most logical choice. BUT, that doesnt mean that while it would be a decision that came easily, that the actual act of going through with it, would be. Honestly, I think that is the case for most women. I am NOT against abortion, but I am NOT PRO abortion & I never will be.
and really, come one, its 2010..we know where babies come from, we know how to prevent them. For the average woman, it is irresponsible to not take precautions if you dont want children.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
Serious answer: to answer that question I look to my son, or any child for that matter. A child is a gift full of boundless, life-altering potential. Might it be tough? Expensive? Seemingly wrong? Yes for sure.
I know many women who have had abortions, but I also know some dear friends who made mistakes very young. They wouldn't change a thing and we've spoke a few times about the "what if they had aborted" as we watch the kiddos, and that my friend is gut-wrenching.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
and really, come one, its 2010..we know where babies come from, we know how to prevent them. For the average woman, it is irresponsible to not take precautions if you dont want children.
You would think so but I continue to be amazed at what some of my patients do NOT know. And of course, access to birth control is another issue.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
Serious answer: to answer that question I look to my son, or any child for that matter. A child is a gift full of boundless, life-altering potential. Might it be tough? Expensive? Seemingly wrong? Yes for sure.
I know many women who have had abortions, but I also know some dear friends who made mistakes very young. They wouldn't change a thing and we've spoke a few times about the "what if they had aborted" as we watch the kiddos, and that my friend is gut-wrenching.
I see my existing children and feel the same way. But when I had an abortion previously, I did not feel that way. There wasn't any way I could handle having a child on my own at that time and further, I didn't want one.
I see children as a gift to those who want them and are willing to nurture and love them. And have the desire to do so. And I believe abortions should be legal and on-demand because I don't think anyone, simply because THEY think children are a gift from God, should make decisions for people who don't feel that way.
I think people are letting their own personal feeling cloud their judgment here. Just because you can't imagine aborting, can you not imagine how some women might be relieved and happy to have the option?
Ah yes, personal feelings cloud judgment for sure. That's life, and human nature. I can totally imagine that many are relieved and happy to have the option. I know my friends would have felt some degree of that at that time had they made that decision. But they are damn happy they didn't.
But I can't say any more on that. Because I haven't been there. Again, my opinion and thoughts concern only me, myself and I. (I do enjoy this discussion though)
Just like the saying goes, at the end of our life, nobody ever says 'I wish I spent more time in the office'...does anyone ever say 'wish I never had that kid.' Ok, not the same thing. And I am sure some do think that, and there are a bunch of ways this could go...but on a high level, I believe in the inherently good of people...and now I am officially on a crazy tangent.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
and really, come one, its 2010..we know where babies come from, we know how to prevent them. For the average woman, it is irresponsible to not take precautions if you dont want children.
You would think so but I continue to be amazed at what some of my patients do NOT know. And of course, access to birth control is another issue.
something tells me your patients are not the average woman..they are mental patients are they not ? if they suffer from a mental health/behavioral health disorder, they're not in the average woman category that you know i'm referring to.
and also there is a planned parenthood in probably every state in the country or *some* sort of birth control/family planning clinic in every town as well as drug stores that sell condoms, yes the good ol' condom ! and every public school in the country teaches sexual education.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
Serious answer: to answer that question I look to my son, or any child for that matter. A child is a gift full of boundless, life-altering potential. Might it be tough? Expensive? Seemingly wrong? Yes for sure.
I know many women who have had abortions, but I also know some dear friends who made mistakes very young. They wouldn't change a thing and we've spoke a few times about the "what if they had aborted" as we watch the kiddos, and that my friend is gut-wrenching.
I see my existing children and feel the same way. But when I had an abortion previously, I did not feel that way. There wasn't any way I could handle having a child on my own at that time and further, I didn't want one.
I see children as a gift to those who want them and are willing to nurture and love them. And have the desire to do so. And I believe abortions should be legal and on-demand because I don't think anyone, simply because THEY think children are a gift from God, should make decisions for people who don't feel that way.
I think people are letting their own personal feeling cloud their judgment here. Just because you can't imagine aborting, can you not imagine how some women might be relieved and happy to have the option?
What I find strange is the fact that you would have no reservations about having an abortion NOW ? at this point in your life..given your means to suppport them, you're supportive husband, you have 2 children who are the pride & joy of your life, who you talk about with such love. You havent gotten around to getting permantely sterilized nor has your husband, but you readily admit if you got pregnant , you would have an abortion. Why not just make it so there is NO chance that would have to happen ? Honestly, it's your life, your body, your choice. At the end of the day what you do or dont, doesnt affect me & I really could care less but I can still find it an incredible shame.
Ah yes, personal feelings cloud judgment for sure. That's life, and human nature. I can totally imagine that many are relieved and happy to have the option. I know my friends would have felt some degree of that at that time had they made that decision. But they are damn happy they didn't.
But I can't say any more on that. Because I haven't been there. Again, my opinion and thoughts concern only me, myself and I. (I do enjoy this discussion though)
Just like the saying goes, at the end of our life, nobody ever says 'I wish I spent more time in the office'...does anyone ever say 'wish I never had that kid.' Ok, not the same thing. And I am sure some do think that, and there are a bunch of ways this could go...but on a high level, I believe in the inherently good of people...and now I am officially on a crazy tangent.
I don't know. I see people struggle so much with children and believe some women do feel that way but are not really "allowed" to say so. Can you imagine the response if one of your friends told you she wished she had gone ahead with the abortion?
But I also think that actually, some people DO wish they had spent more time in the office instead of f-ing around in their earlier years and now finding that they can't pay their bills or whatever.
What I find strange is the fact that you would have no reservations about having an abortion NOW ? at this point in your life..given your means to suppport them, you're supportive husband, you have 2 children who are the pride & joy of your life, who you talk about with such love. You havent gotten around to getting permantely sterilized nor has your husband, but you readily admit if you got pregnant , you would have an abortion. Why not just make it so there is NO chance that would have to happen ? Honestly, it's your life, your body, your choice. At the end of the day what you do or dont, doesnt affect me & I really could care less but I can still find it an incredible shame.
I have no reservations about having an abortion if I needed one because right now I have a supportive husband, 2 fantastic children who I adore and the means to support them. I would find it a burden rather than a blessing to have another child.
I don't really get why women would be OK if I got an abortion in my 20's but somehow at 42 I am supposed to accept an "oops" and deal with it.
I also don't get why people are so hung up on sterilization. Yep, it is on our list. So are a lot of things. But that isn't the answer for a lot of women who could possibly change their minds at some point but should still have the option of aborting a pregnancy at any time, for whatever reason they think is important.
Please someone tell me at what specific income does having an abortion become about convenience vs. a well-thought-out decision that is best for one's family?
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
I respect you in many ways but I am beginning to think you are a robot. It is remarkable to me that you don't understand that many people would hope that is how others would view it.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
Serious question: Why do you think it SHOULD be a gut-wrenching, difficult decision? Why can't it be an easy decision to make and one that could be made confidently and without remorse?
I respect you in many ways but I am beginning to think you are a robot. It is remarkable to me that you don't understand that many people would hope that is how others would view it.
People can hope for whatever they want. Doesn't make it true.
Agree with the person who used the term robot. This whole post made me change my view of you so drastically, and it sucks.
It's one thing to wish that abortion was more easily accessible to women who truly need to have one. But to think that there should be no shame in it, no stigma attached, and that women should be "proud" and "happy" about such a decision is truly just sick.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Agree with the person who used the term robot. This whole post made me change my view of you so drastically, and it sucks.
It's one thing to wish that abortion was more easily accessible to women who truly need to have one. But to think that there should be no shame in it, no stigma attached, and that women should be "proud" and "happy" about such a decision is truly just sick.
Ditto. Well, except I've always viewed you as a "robot." I don't know whether you go out of your way to come across as an incredibly strong person who doesn't let anything emotional get to her, and in turn sound like a loon, or if you are just missing a fundamental chip that makes most humans capable of feeling.
Aborting a child should be a difficult, heart wrenching decision, and not treated as just another trip to the gyno. Being a mother already should make it 1000 times harder. You know what pregnancy results in--another wonderful, perfect, amazing human being whom you love unconditionally. But hey, their possible future sibling might make life a little less comfy, so they don't get a chance at life.
To answer your question, no, I would not get an abortion. If I felt as strongly as you do about not having another child, I would have my tubes tied, and I wouldn't treat it as just another thing on my to-do list.
I'm so disgusted by this post.
On our way to 3 under 4!
DD1 1/22/09
DD2 7/16/10
Baby Boy Due This Summer!
Re: If you got pregnant would you keep it or abort? And, how does being a WM
I think women who have multiple abortions shouldn't be judged any more than women who ahve a bunch of "ooops" and keep on having kids.
I absolutely agree abortion should always remain legal, without question. But I disagree with those that think, it's ok to have abortion after abortion after abortion just because you can. Fine, you dont want kids. fine you dont want any MORE kids. fine, your life is in the crapper & its not right to bring a kid into that situation, but for heavens sakes, how about practicing safe sex ? how about taking measures to prevent pregnancy? It's not that hard, It's actually harder to get pregnant than it is to NOT get pregnant.
Difficult. I would love to see more women come out and talk about the process and their decision to have an abortion - that might at least move the discussion foward.
And of course, education.
nah, i'll judge them too !
lol at "havent gotten around to it "
I participated in this discussion over there, and I haven't read all these responses, but I just wanted to say - I assume if you don't want more children, you or your husband has taken permanent measures to ensure that you won't get pregnant again?
To answer your question, no, I'd never abort a baby. Ever. I don't want another for a year or two, which is why I'm on the pill, but if I were to get pregnant, I'd welcome that child very happily.
We're looking to buy our first house soon, and we certainly can't afford two in daycare right now, but we'd figure it out.
Ok, sorry, I see that you "haven't gotten around to it."
I second the posters who said "wow. just wow."
I always like to see you on this board since you're a happy, confident working mom, which is what I am, as well. I think there need to be more happy working moms out there.
But this post really has me feeling differently toward you. No hard feelings, whatever. I just find it really sad that people think how you do. Yes, abortion should be legal, but I also think there should be a stigma associated with it. It's a terrible act.
In real life, it doesn't happen. Multifactorial.
I don't think it is a terrible act at all. I think it is a choice. And thank goodness women have it.
You are entitled to your opinion same as I am entitled to mine.
I understand that you disagree, but IMHO, abortion isn't birth control.
I would hope that anyone having an abortion would not take the decision lightly. Even if I disagree with a woman's end-choice, I have to accept that they made the right choice for themselves. There is a difference between disliking a person and disliking an action.
IMHO, there will always be a stigma attached to abortion - how can there not be? With micro-preemies surviving earlier and earlier, the line between abortion and murder (as some would say) will continue to be blurred. It isn't like women who have gotten an abortion are required to broadcast that fact. If you can live with the choice, that is your concern, you (general you) don't necessarily need to broadcast it to the world.
As far as the kids in the foster system - many of them (sadly) have special needs or other care-factors that would require more time, attention or heartache than your 'average' child. If you wouldn't judge someone for aborting a special needs baby, you can't judge them for passing over one in the adoption process. I also can't fault a potential mom for wanting to raise her child from infancy vs. jumping right in at an older age.
I have consistently heard the pro choice argument that "No one thinks abortion is a *good* thing, just that it is a necessary option at times" but, I am getting a completely different vibe than that from you.
As I said, you are entitled to your opinions just as others are entitled to theirs. But, you seem to think that anyone who isn't pro-abortion (different than pro-choice) is living in the dark ages, and that confuses me. You can choose your opinion and I'll choose mine
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
yes, there are many many reasons women have abortions. but i'm betting most of them are not skipping off meerily to their 3rd or 4th or 5th one with a smile on their face & if they are , they're pieces of *** ( in my opinion of course ).
I'm always up for a good debate. I disagree that it turned ugly. People have different opinions - so what. A topic like this is bound to get strong opinions on both sides - better put your big girl panties on before coming in!
No one is saying, "Spenjamins, you are a horrible person for aborting your child. I hate you." That would be rude. (and fwiw, even if I disagree with her choice, I have to give her props for honesty and putting it all out there - not always an easy thing to do on a controversial topic). They are just discussing the topic and the million different factors and angles it can be viewed from.
A Little Bird and a Monkey Butt
That is what I am saying - people are "irresponsible" in all sorts of ways. It isn't easy for all women to be healthy and take care of themselves. That's why I don't judge.
Yes, I would judge those patients, but I guess their problems are not my problems.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
When I was going through infertility treatments, a very close friend of mine went through multiple proceedures to abort a very unwanted ectopic pregnancy. That occurred when she had unprotected sex. With someone she said she never wanted to have sex with.
Although I very much wanted to be a mother, it never occurred to me to think she shouldn't have an abortion (ectopic aside--the chick would be a trainwreck of a mom and she knows it). I was only annoyed that she made such a big deal out of it and asked me to feed her cat while she was in the hospital.
The whole myth of the woman who uses abortion for birth control is right up there with the Welfare queen who drives a Caddy. It makes you feel justified in judging, but doesn't represent the real individuals in the situation.
I agree with how Clinton used to phrase it--abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. I think there should be a stigma to it. In my view, it should be a last option and one that's taken very seriously.
You're taking it a bit out of context. This phrase (which was Hilary's, BTW) was used as an argument against abstinance-only sex ed.
I don't think there's anyone who would say that MORE abortions is a laudable goal.
I think spenjamins is & I think that is what people are giving the side eye over...she sounds like she actually thinks people should be proud of having an abortion. I dont think its a shameful thing, but I dont think its something to be proud of either. I think its disgusting that instead of using birth control or other permanent measures, people act like "oh no biggie, if something happens, I can skip on over to the abortion clinic on my lunch break". I'm over-exaggerating , but you get the point ?! It is disturbing that there are people out there who do not or would not feel anything about making that choice. I know the majority of women who have abortions do not take it lightly. I have known women , very close to me who have had one. It was the right choice for them in that time in their lives but it was very painful for them. I dont really get how it couldnt be hard for people, emotionally. Even if you never struggled with the decision, it should still hit you emotionally on some level.
I'm like most of the women on here in that I wouldn't choose abortion for myself even though I do not want any more children. But I agree with Spenjamins that it should be a widely available option. Sadly in my line of work I see people every day who should NOT have kids and I also see people who are the PRODUCT of parents who should not have had kids.
Well, because it's a baby..yes, yes I know you'll probably say its not a baby yet, its a ball of cells, blah, blah, blah..yes a ball of cells that would most likely otherwise become a baby..the woman who is carrying its , baby..a part of her, that she created. I get that for some it's an easy decision..I admit, if I was 16 & pregnant, raped & got pregnant, completely broke & homeless & got pregnant, an abortion would be the most logical choice. BUT, that doesnt mean that while it would be a decision that came easily, that the actual act of going through with it, would be. Honestly, I think that is the case for most women. I am NOT against abortion, but I am NOT PRO abortion & I never will be.
and really, come one, its 2010..we know where babies come from, we know how to prevent them. For the average woman, it is irresponsible to not take precautions if you dont want children.
Serious answer: to answer that question I look to my son, or any child for that matter. A child is a gift full of boundless, life-altering potential. Might it be tough? Expensive? Seemingly wrong? Yes for sure.
I know many women who have had abortions, but I also know some dear friends who made mistakes very young. They wouldn't change a thing and we've spoke a few times about the "what if they had aborted" as we watch the kiddos, and that my friend is gut-wrenching.
I see children as a gift to those who want them and are willing to nurture and love them. And have the desire to do so. And I believe abortions should be legal and on-demand because I don't think anyone, simply because THEY think children are a gift from God, should make decisions for people who don't feel that way.
I think people are letting their own personal feeling cloud their judgment here. Just because you can't imagine aborting, can you not imagine how some women might be relieved and happy to have the option?
Ah yes, personal feelings cloud judgment for sure. That's life, and human nature. I can totally imagine that many are relieved and happy to have the option. I know my friends would have felt some degree of that at that time had they made that decision. But they are damn happy they didn't.
But I can't say any more on that. Because I haven't been there. Again, my opinion and thoughts concern only me, myself and I. (I do enjoy this discussion though)
Just like the saying goes, at the end of our life, nobody ever says 'I wish I spent more time in the office'...does anyone ever say 'wish I never had that kid.' Ok, not the same thing. And I am sure some do think that, and there are a bunch of ways this could go...but on a high level, I believe in the inherently good of people...and now I am officially on a crazy tangent.
something tells me your patients are not the average woman..they are mental patients are they not ? if they suffer from a mental health/behavioral health disorder, they're not in the average woman category that you know i'm referring to.
and also there is a planned parenthood in probably every state in the country or *some* sort of birth control/family planning clinic in every town as well as drug stores that sell condoms, yes the good ol' condom ! and every public school in the country teaches sexual education.
What I find strange is the fact that you would have no reservations about having an abortion NOW ? at this point in your life..given your means to suppport them, you're supportive husband, you have 2 children who are the pride & joy of your life, who you talk about with such love. You havent gotten around to getting permantely sterilized nor has your husband, but you readily admit if you got pregnant , you would have an abortion. Why not just make it so there is NO chance that would have to happen ? Honestly, it's your life, your body, your choice. At the end of the day what you do or dont, doesnt affect me & I really could care less but I can still find it an incredible shame.
But I also think that actually, some people DO wish they had spent more time in the office instead of f-ing around in their earlier years and now finding that they can't pay their bills or whatever.
I have no reservations about having an abortion if I needed one because right now I have a supportive husband, 2 fantastic children who I adore and the means to support them. I would find it a burden rather than a blessing to have another child.
I don't really get why women would be OK if I got an abortion in my 20's but somehow at 42 I am supposed to accept an "oops" and deal with it.
I also don't get why people are so hung up on sterilization. Yep, it is on our list. So are a lot of things. But that isn't the answer for a lot of women who could possibly change their minds at some point but should still have the option of aborting a pregnancy at any time, for whatever reason they think is important.
Please someone tell me at what specific income does having an abortion become about convenience vs. a well-thought-out decision that is best for one's family?
I respect you in many ways but I am beginning to think you are a robot. It is remarkable to me that you don't understand that many people would hope that is how others would view it.
Agree with the person who used the term robot. This whole post made me change my view of you so drastically, and it sucks.
It's one thing to wish that abortion was more easily accessible to women who truly need to have one. But to think that there should be no shame in it, no stigma attached, and that women should be "proud" and "happy" about such a decision is truly just sick.
Ditto.
DD -- 5YO
DS -- 3YO
Ditto. Well, except I've always viewed you as a "robot." I don't know whether you go out of your way to come across as an incredibly strong person who doesn't let anything emotional get to her, and in turn sound like a loon, or if you are just missing a fundamental chip that makes most humans capable of feeling.
Aborting a child should be a difficult, heart wrenching decision, and not treated as just another trip to the gyno. Being a mother already should make it 1000 times harder. You know what pregnancy results in--another wonderful, perfect, amazing human being whom you love unconditionally. But hey, their possible future sibling might make life a little less comfy, so they don't get a chance at life.
To answer your question, no, I would not get an abortion. If I felt as strongly as you do about not having another child, I would have my tubes tied, and I wouldn't treat it as just another thing on my to-do list.
I'm so disgusted by this post.