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Natural Birth
Circumcision
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Circumcision
circumcision used to just be a ritualistic NICK in the baby's penis... ". At that time it was a 'cutting of the blessing' - a very small slit made at the end of the penis to allow a few drops of blood to fall (or, actually, be sucked out by the mouth of the boy's father or a Rabbi)."https://www.drmomma.org/2010/07/biblical-circumcision-information.html
Extensive research has been done on the history of circumcision.
The christians got a hold of the ritual in the 1800's to curb masturbation in men. " In 1888, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, a well respected physician and founder of the Kellogg cereal company, spoke for mainstream Victorian medicine when he wrote: ?A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic as the brief pain [sic, see below] attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment.?
On have I ever taken care of children w/circumsions? Yes, I've been in childcare for years specializing in newborns and was a nanny for two families that birthed baby boys while I was in their employ. One had a botched circumcision and the other did have an infection due to the surgery.
Just read the studies on the pain involved and the change in the child. Its out there and PLENTYFUL.
I'm not quite sure why you quoted me here. The history of circ and masturbation has nothing to do with the decision that was made between God and my family.
Are you implying that I did this because I think it will keep my boys from masturbating?
And in the other post where you quoted me - I already did my research and I don't feel the need to do anymore. I don't need to read about changes in children, because I have experienced it with my own babies. There was no "change" in them. There was no difference in latching before and after the circ. I also believe that they aren't walking around now at 3 and 18 months thinking about how mommy mutilated their penises, just as my grown husband doesn't think about it at all either. I think he's pretty happy with his penis and doesn't wakle up in the middle of the night having nightmares about the procedure (he also was BF without any problems, BTW).
I would imagine that the pain of childbirth that my babies went through just 24 hours before the circ was 100% more painful and traumatic than the circ. They don't remember that pain, so I SERIOUSLY doubt that they remember the pain of the circ. If that is the case, and they remember the pain of having their heads squashed in the birth canal, shouldn't we all be having c/s to spare them the pain. I mean, doesn't that pain change them???
People that get stys or other eye infections don't cut their eyelids off. You never hear of women being circumsized at an old age because of vaginal infections. Old women have the same problem with infections. The foreskin has a purpose:
"Just as the eyelid protects the eye, the foreskin protects the glans, keeping its surface soft, moist, warm and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands ? glands that produce the moisturizing oil that our skin needs to stay healthy.(2) The foreskin produces the moisturizer that keeps the surface of the glans glistening, smooth, soft, and a deep healthy red or purple color. The foreskin will protect the entire penis when accidents happen, such as contusions, abrasions, lacerations, and burns. The foreskin is the first layer ? a double layer ? of defense from injury to the rest of the penis."
"
To help fight harmful bacteria, the foreskin supports a rich flora of beneficial bacteria. Friendly bacteria exist in a symbiotic relationship with the body and are found on all body surfaces and through the gastrointestinal, genitourinary tract (the urinary system that runs from the kidneys, through the bladder, and out the penis), and the mouth. Friendly bacteria also thrive in the eyes. Without the presence of friendly bacteria, the human body would be vulnerable to attack from pathogenic bacteria.
The good bacteria that live in the inside of the foreskin are similar to the bacteria found in the mouth, nose, the female genitals, and the skin in general. It must be stressed that this good bacteria is both harmless and highly beneficial. Without these friendly bacteria, the urethra would become an easy entry point for germs and harmful stains of bacteria, which could cause disease."Did you know that the clitoral hood and the penis's foreskin are EXACTLY the same organ until 16 weeks? Do you believe in female circumcision? No because its ILLEGAL to perform female circumcision.
Photo:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_P07uaGtMQn4/Srejovn_NAI/AAAAAAAABlM/zpytHIJMaIg/s400/5888_110595748054_623908054_2943613_3046448_n.jpg
huge efforts are being made to make male circumcision ILLEGAL and humane efforts have already been passed in Australia, the U.K., and Canada.
"I'm not quite sure why you quoted me here. The history of circ and masturbation has nothing to do with the decision that was made between God and my family.
Are you implying that I did this because I think it will keep my boys from masturbating"
I don't presume to know the reasons you personally decided to, but I hope to inform others from making the same decision uninformed.
I quoated you because you said it was between you and GOD. Instead of following an old testament law, like not eating pork or shellfish, maybe you should be "transformed by the renewing of your mind." Unless you really do believe that "
But also, the reason circumcision became MAINSTREAM in the US (full circumcision seems to have started in the 1800's by Dr. Kellogg and Graham ) was post WW-II crazies believed it would create boys and soldiers that wouldn't be so wild during war times... so yeah indirectly that is what I said.
Further, God DOESN'T ask us to do things arbitrarily, and there is plenty of scientific and psychological evidence to show that circumcision is a dangerous and useless practice.
Read this bill that has already passed on female genital mutilation: https://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=104_cong_bills&docid=f:h941ih.txt
And here is the bill that will be passed soon in the US to protect from Male GENITAL MUTILATION:
https://www.mgmbill.org/usmgmbill2010.pdf
I don't read information handed out by people who blatantly disrespect me when I discuss my religious views. If you're familiar with the scripture Romans 12:2 that you quoted, than you will know that we are not responsible for the renewing of our minds, but rather God is. I go to Him with decisions and He guides me. Until He tells or shows me otherwise, I am satisfied with our decision.
I undertand that everyone has their issues that they like to get on soapboxes about, but if you wouldn't disrespect people of Jewish or Muslim faiths for choosing to circ their sons based on their religious beliefs, why would you do it to someone who is a Christian. I just don't get it.
Since you brought up Romans 12, I think the next verse is particulary important when hot topics like this come up where mothers start to judge one another (emphasis mine):
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
And in the other post where you quoted me - I already did my research and I don't feel the need to do anymore. I don't need to read about changes in children, because I have experienced it with my own babies. There was no "change" in them.
Were you present during the chopping of the penis?
There was no difference in latching before and after the circ. I also believe that they aren't walking around now at 3 and 18 months thinking about how mommy mutilated their penises, just as my grown husband doesn't think about it at all either. I think he's pretty happy with his penis and doesn't wakle up in the middle of the night having nightmares about the procedure (he also was BF without any problems, BTW).
All men are "happy" with their penises... they don't know what they are missing, but read an account from someone who had circumcision as an adult and you will change your tune.
I would imagine that the pain of childbirth that my babies went through just 24 hours before the circ was 100% more painful and traumatic than the circ.
why would you ELECT to hurt your baby? Sounds a bit like you were holding a grudge there....
They don't remember that pain, so I SERIOUSLY doubt that they remember the pain of the circ.
Read a few studies... studies and experiments on pain have been done since 1917, by Johns Hopkins University.
https://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/infant-pain-impacts-adult-sensitivity.html
More on feel and remember pain: https://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1F21E.htm
REGARDLESS if they remember the PAIN, why put them in it in the first place?! Just because someone is knocked out before their rapped doesn't mean the rapping should have happened. Just sayin.
If that is the case, and they remember the pain of having their heads squashed in the birth canal, shouldn't we all be having c/s to spare them the pain. I mean, doesn't that pain change them???
Well, actually birth HAS become more painful to babies due to the new drugs... hense the NATURAL BIRTH BOARD your on. " Sources of pain include: scalp wounds for electronic monitoring and blood samples during labor, forceps extraction (made more frequent now by epidural anesthetics), extreme spatial disorientations, being held upside down by the heels, frigid scales and utensils in a room 20 degrees lower than the womb, bright lights, noise, heel lancing, vitamin injections, astringent eye medications, irritating wiping and washing, sudden separation from their mothers, and banishment to a nursery of crying babies, all of it distinctly painful and upsetting and a flagrant violation of the baby's senses. Obstetricians defend all these practices, calling them necessary and "the best of care." And yes, there is a phenominon known as the "Squalling in the womb" (known as vagitus uterinus) is a dramatic signal of fetal pain, rare but well documented over many years sometimes the baby is in enough pain to kill him in the womb. So I am doing everything I can to keep PAIN from my baby.
And in the other post where you quoted me - I already did my research and I don't feel the need to do anymore. I don't need to read about changes in children, because I have experienced it with my own babies. There was no "change" in them.
Were you present during the chopping of the penis?
There was no difference in latching before and after the circ. I also believe that they aren't walking around now at 3 and 18 months thinking about how mommy mutilated their penises, just as my grown husband doesn't think about it at all either. I think he's pretty happy with his penis and doesn't wakle up in the middle of the night having nightmares about the procedure (he also was BF without any problems, BTW).
All men are "happy" with their penises... they don't know what they are missing, but read an account from someone who had circumcision as an adult and you will change your tune.
I would imagine that the pain of childbirth that my babies went through just 24 hours before the circ was 100% more painful and traumatic than the circ.
why would you ELECT to hurt your baby? Sounds a bit like you were holding a grudge there....
They don't remember that pain, so I SERIOUSLY doubt that they remember the pain of the circ.
Read a few studies... studies and experiments on pain have been done since 1917, by Johns Hopkins University.
https://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/infant-pain-impacts-adult-sensitivity.html
More on feel and remember pain: https://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1F21E.htm
REGARDLESS if they remember the PAIN, why put them in it in the first place?! Just because someone is knocked out before their rapped doesn't mean the rapping should have happened. Just sayin.
If that is the case, and they remember the pain of having their heads squashed in the birth canal, shouldn't we all be having c/s to spare them the pain. I mean, doesn't that pain change them???
Well, actually birth HAS become more painful to babies due to the new drugs... hense the NATURAL BIRTH BOARD your on. " Sources of pain include: scalp wounds for electronic monitoring and blood samples during labor, forceps extraction (made more frequent now by epidural anesthetics), extreme spatial disorientations, being held upside down by the heels, frigid scales and utensils in a room 20 degrees lower than the womb, bright lights, noise, heel lancing, vitamin injections, astringent eye medications, irritating wiping and washing, sudden separation from their mothers, and banishment to a nursery of crying babies, all of it distinctly painful and upsetting and a flagrant violation of the baby's senses. Obstetricians defend all these practices, calling them necessary and "the best of care." And yes, there is a phenominon known as the "Squalling in the womb" (known as vagitus uterinus) is a dramatic signal of fetal pain, rare but well documented over many years sometimes the baby is in enough pain to kill him in the womb. So I am doing everything I can to keep PAIN from my baby.
I don't read information handed out by people who blatantly disrespect me when I discuss my religious views. If you're familiar with the scripture Romans 12:2 that you quoted, than you will know that we are not responsible for the renewing of our minds, but rather God is. I go to Him with decisions and He guides me. Until He tells or shows me otherwise, I am satisfied with our decision.
Since you're all about scriptural accuracy, allow me to correct you and reiterate an early point which you have clearly glossed over: circumcision was a NICK in the foreskin, not total removal, in the old testament. After the NICK the father or rabbi would suck out a drop of blood as a sacrifice of the covenant. The Hebrew words used for the practice are "namal" and "muwl". In Hebrew, namal means 'to clip' - like one would clip the ends of our fingernails. Muwl means 'to curtail, to blunt.' Neither of these words mean "to cut" "to amputate" "to remove" "to cut off," etc. There were very different words in Hebrew to represent 'the cutting off' or 'the removal of.' The MODERN day practice of circumcision is simply NOT biblical. (or ethical) https://www.drmomma.org/2010/07/biblical-circumcision-information.html
and i TOTALLY understand if you want to forgo having to think for yourself, but it is entirely possible that the still, small voice you're waiting for is actually latent within the ABUNDANCE OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE I HAVE PRESENTED TO CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE THAT ALL YOU ARE DOING IS MANGLING YOUR SONS' PENISES.
I undertand that everyone has their issues that they like to get on soapboxes about, but if you wouldn't disrespect people of Jewish or Muslim faiths for choosing to circ their sons based on their religious beliefs, why would you do it to someone who is a Christian. I just don't get it.
I would tell anyone my views on circumcision, regardless of their religious background.
Since you brought up Romans 12, I think the next verse is particulary important when hot topics like this come up where mothers start to judge one another (emphasis mine):
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Exactly, don't think of yourself as HIGHER than your son and choose to cut of his foreskin without his adult consent.
Muwl has many different meanings that you are overlooking. Hebrew is a complex language and just as is the case in English, each word can have multiple meanings when used in different ways. In my Hebrew version of the OT it is used in many different ways. First, it can mean to cut short or to curtail. It can also mean to blunt or to destroy. It is used in different contexts in different parts of scripture. In Ge 17:10-14, 23-27, and 21:4 it is used as a verb, meaning to cut short or cut off. In Dt 10:16, Jer 4:4 it is used to mean "to circumcise your heart" or remove the hardness. When used in the intensive form (Ps 90:6) it means to cut down. Used in the causative sense (Ps 118:10-12), it means to cut off or destory.
All of my info comes from my Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible - King James Version. You can look into it a little more if you don't believe me.
I'm not going to discuss this any further with you. Have a good night.
I hear this argument a lot as a point in favor of circumcision. But if a man is unable to take care of himself, it falls on his caregivers to take care of him properly. I wonder how many of these penis issues in uncirc'd older men are due to the fact that circ'ing has been the norm for so long that most caregivers of the elderly today do not know how to properly care for an uncirc'd penis. If that's the case, then I would guess that as our kids' generation (which is close to 50/50 circ'd/uncirc'd) grows up, caregivers will get more experience with uncirc'd penis care, and problems will be less common.
Ahhhh, so in other words, all parents who choose to circ are uninformed? OK
For this one, you do have to include your quote that I was replying to: "Did you know that more circumcised boys will be circumcised a second time than intact boys will ever need a first circumcision to fix a problem with their foreskin?" I was pointing out that this is not true. Yes, of course, there will be more circs overall in the circumcised group... duhhh. But the rate of complications is the same.
Then don't do it. Done. I'm not saying that everyone should circ. Heck, I wouldn't circ my kids if it were left entirely up to me.
But if that's the case, give that as your reason for not circ'ing, rather than all this stuff about how there's no pain relief and it affects breastfeeding and so on. That doesn't help other parents make an informed decision on circ'ing (because it's not true of all circs), and honestly, it dilutes your fundamental argument. Which is quite powerful on its own, I might add!
Oh, of course he can. And a circ'd man could always choose reattachment surgery or whatever it's called. But getting circ'd as an adult is totally different from getting circ'd as a newborn, just as being reattached is totally different from being uncirc'd to start with.
Either way, the parents are making a choice. Thankfully, the vast majority of men will be happy with whichever choice their parents made... which means that in the end, the whole circumcision debate is really more about the parents than about the child who is being circumcised.
Mommy to DD1 (June 2007), DS (January 2010), DD2 (July 2012), and The Next One (EDD 3/31/2015)
You're probably right. Sadly in our culture we tend to put our elderly in nursing homes, and when we are paying the nurses aides that take care of them minimum wage, unfortunately the quality of care tends not to be that wonderful. Some of the stories my friend told me about coworkers in the nursing home were so horrific (people being left in feces for entire days at a time and the abuse that goes on). It's a very sad and unfortunate fact.
I realize not all nursing homes are like this and there are many very decent, loving nurses aides. I am just talking about one person's experience working in a nursing home.