Our Circumcision Decision

parentalunit321

Sorry to bring up a sensitive subject...I know there's already a lot written about this out there.  I just wanted to share why we ultimately decided not to circumcize, even though it was almost a forgone conclusion for us to have it done when I found out I was having a boy. My husband is circumcised after all, so it seemed like the 'normal' thing to do. I think the way I arrived at a decision was atypical, so I thought there would be some value in sharing.  Anyway...
Long story short, after a conversation with friends I ended up taking a deep dive into online resources published by medical organizations in other countries. There are only five other countries in the world with a history of routine infant circumcision: UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Korea. Although the majority of boys in these countries used to have the procedure, circumcision rates are in very steep decline or practically eliminated in EVERY country. That's right, it was 'normal'...until it wasn't. Why? The medical establishment in each country decided the procedure was an unnecessary risk with dubious benefits. As a result, the circumcision guidelines published by foreign medical bodies tend to be more comprehensive than ours are. At the same time, they are much less in your face or biased than some of those anticircumcision websites out there.
I don't want to play activist here...this is a deeply personal decision and all advice should be given weight. I just encourage expecting parents to seek out resources from some of the countries I mentioned in order to make what they consider the best decision. If you care to take a look, here is a link to page that shifted my attitude towards circumcision. Notice how similar it is to American medical literature supporting the procedure:

https://raisingchildren.net.au/guides/a-z-health-reference/circumcision

harpseal135

You are "sorry to bring up a sensitive topic," but yet you did DESPITE having your own decision made already.  You don't want to "play activist" yet you are telling people to seek resources from other countries.

You are subliminally trying to tell expecting mom not to circumcise- trying to play neutral - but its screaming 'don't circumcise.'

QFP

parentalunit321 said:

Sorry to bring up a sensitive subject...I know there's already a lot written about this out there.  I just wanted to share why we ultimately decided not to circumcize, even though it was almost a forgone conclusion for us to have it done when I found out I was having a boy. My husband is circumcised after all, so it seemed like the 'normal' thing to do. I think the way I arrived at a decision was atypical, so I thought there would be some value in sharing.  Anyway...
Long story short, after a conversation with friends I ended up taking a deep dive into online resources published by medical organizations in other countries. There are only five other countries in the world with a history of routine infant circumcision: UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Korea. Although the majority of boys in these countries used to have the procedure, circumcision rates are in very steep decline or practically eliminated in EVERY country. That's right, it was 'normal'...until it wasn't. Why? The medical establishment in each country decided the procedure was an unnecessary risk with dubious benefits. As a result, the circumcision guidelines published by foreign medical bodies tend to be more comprehensive than ours are. At the same time, they are much less in your face or biased than some of those anticircumcision websites out there.
I don't want to play activist here...this is a deeply personal decision and all advice should be given weight. I just encourage expecting parents to seek out resources from some of the countries I mentioned in order to make what they consider the best decision. If you care to take a look, here is a link to page that shifted my attitude towards circumcision. Notice how similar it is to American medical literature supporting the procedure:

https://raisingchildren.net.au/guides/a-z-health-reference/circumcision

coldlife2

Ditto harpseal. Also, only those five countries with a history of routine circumcision? I find that hard to believe considering it’s such a widespread Jewish, Christian and Muslim practice. 

parentalunit321

Just to clarify, the five countries I mentioned, including the US, are the only ones that have a significant history of circumcision for non religious reasons. Obviously it's widespread in Israel, Muslim, and African countries where the tradition goes back thousands of years.

I don't know if I'm 'screaming don't circumcise'... obviously I made the decision not to, so I do hold a position...at one point I was really on the fence however. I just wanted to share my story with other people in the same position. I posted this on 3rd trimester so as not to offend anyone who has already reached a conclusion. I'm sorry...it's very hard not to come across as insensitive or preachy discussing this...

harpseal135

parentalunit321 said:

Just to clarify, the five countries I mentioned, including the US, are the only ones that have a significant history of circumcision for non religious reasons. Obviously it's widespread in Israel, Muslim, and African countries where the tradition goes back thousands of years.

I don't know if I'm 'screaming don't circumcise'... obviously I made the decision not to, so I do hold a position...at one point I was really on the fence however. I just wanted to share my story with other people in the same position. I posted this on 3rd trimester so as not to offend anyone who has already reached a conclusion. I'm sorry...it's very hard not to come across as insensitive or preachy discussing this...

I guess, the question is, whats the point of the post if its not to persuade? 

[Deleted User]

Agreed that it's a personal decision and there's a lot to it.  As an American, I know I was surprised to learn how much less common it is in other parts of (even the developed) world.  FTR, there is no religious reason as a Christian that it need be performed, either.  We don't have boys, but as team green we had to do some hard looks into it prior to delivery, after which I think even DH was surprised at how his position evolved the more we learned.

wishiwaspreggo

My pediatrician told me the chances of my sons contracting HIV (and many other STIs) dropped dramatically with circumcision. Also, he said their chances of getting UTIs dropped as well. Friends of mine chose not to circumcise and they had to take their boys in later for circumcision as young boys (3-4 years old). Old enough to know the pain of it I'm not saying all boys will go through this but I had to cath my daughter for a UTI and it was the WORST. If there was a flap of skin covering her urethra I'd opt to have it cut off too. The boys have no idea they were circumcised and I've never heard a single complaint from a man in the bedroom about his satisfaction after sex with a circumcised penis. If my boys are mad at me about it I have my reasons and I'll tell them it's better it was done before they could remember than to have issues later in life and deal with it themselves. I get the "your body your choice" argument but I chose a preemptive strike for prevention.

You opened the conversation for debate, OP. So I'm sharing my side so other parents who read this don't feel ashamed of their decision to circumcise if they feel it's in their sons' best interests.

[Deleted User]

HIV-guilt the parents?  Really???
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/c4/4ok89zx4qyju.gif" alt="">
That individual would no longer be my kids' pediatrician, faster than you can say, "hippocratic oath."

wishiwaspreggo

He wasn't shaming me, he was giving me medical information.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127372/

I did what I thought was best for my sons given the information. Likewise, I'll be taking my daughter to get her HPV shot to prevent cervical cancer. Whatever I can do to protect my kids here and now, I will. If my sons get all bent out of shape about me circumcising them since I did so without their permission I'm telling them this is my reason. I can't imagine undergoing a procedure on my genitals as an adult that could've been handled easily as a newborn when they don't have any memories of it happening.

[Deleted User]

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/b1/nbr9ps7dq236.gif" alt="">
I'm sorry.  I didn't realize you live in UGANDA.  Based.

wishiwaspreggo

Whether we live in Uganda, the US, or on the fucking moon an STD is an STD. You’re over here saying circumcision is a personal decision and you’re giving me shit for my reasons? Seriously?

[Deleted User]

You're totally entitled to your opinion.  I just think it sounds 100% fear-based, which is not how I choose to live my life.  And frankly, it makes me feel sorry for you. :/

I personally have a thing I like to call, "first do no harm."  Recognizing that just because he doesn't remember it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Absolutely, there may be real and justified reasons based on a family's personal situation.  But as a woman who had providers try to <i>scare me </i>into consenting<i> </i>to a c-section without a TOL, and then to see providers try to <i>scare parents</i> into cutting their child when he's "too young to remember," to my mind, seems pretty grim.

You may feel it's justified.  I'm also allowed to say as a counterpoint, FOR MY CHILD, I wouldn't consider HIV prevention a justifiable argument. 🤷

I also didn't cuss at you.  I am merely trying to point out for any other new or future parents out there, just because a doctor says a scary-sounding thing, or even presents a journal article or glossy brochure, doesn't mean that's necessarily the right decision for you.  Parents ought to be empowered to research and think for themselves.  White coat syndrome is real.  Hopefully you're in a position where you trust your providers implicitly, but that's not always the case.

[Deleted User]

I also find it a fascinating social commentary on how quickly popular culture has shifted away from valuing low-intervention medical care, staunch promotion of patient / parent advocacy, my body my choice etc. to doctors know best, trust the Science, we can't be too careful!  SMH. Blown by the winds.  I am personally NEVER going to stop advocating for my kid(s).  Sometimes doctors know best, sometimes mama knows best.  And this mama bear never went anywhere! Lol<div><img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/2g/ru9peywilzd3.gif" alt="">
</div>

chichiphin

Girl

Might be time to take a step away from the internet commentary. Also just consider that other “mama bears” get to make choices for their children same as you. Whew 

[Deleted User]

@chichiphin  Uhm, GIRL???  That's literally what I just said a couple posts above.

The *first thing I said, actually*
<div class="Quote">BusinessWife member</div><div class="Quote">March 12</div><div class="Quote">Agreed that it's a personal decision and there's a lot to it.  </div>
We can all agree to do own research, and be empowered to make whatever choices we feel are best for our own families.  That there may be valid circumstances for one or the other.  Glad to see once again, after all the <i>unecessary</i> <i>DRAMA</i>, to see we are actually in agreement.
<img alt="" src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/qc/o6x1wtmzbpuz.gif">

Lates.
<img alt="" src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/9z/2b53pgun8x34.gif">

wishiwaspreggo

Businesswife... when you have to hold your kid down for a catheter come call me and tell me how it feels. I only had to do it once and I was shaking and crying as hard as my daughter. My friend had to have her son undergo that multiple times, PLUS forcing dye into this bladder and kidneys, PLUS have major surgery to fix a problem that could’ve been prevented by circumcision. All on a small child, no pain relief. I’ve seen these issues in a few kids in my life who are uncut. My boys pee free and clear like a majestic river and I am damn glad for the choice I made. You do you but my choice was far more than fear based. My sons love and play with their dongs as much as any other boy 🙄 plus they won’t have to screw around with the skin to stop the odor. And knowing my oldest son it’s a good thing the circumcision is done because he does not like washing up. I can only imagine the hygiene battles I’ll have with him as a teenager but I digress.

Saying my personal choice is fear based is uncool. Experience is a cruel teacher and I refuse to put my kids through hell over a flap of skin they will never miss.

[Deleted User]

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/5j/xkh4ldie61bl.gif" alt="">

harpseal135

@BusinessWife you choose you, others chose themselves - sorry but if we had a son he would have been circumcised, just by the research we had done! Sorry but people will so what they feel is best for the sake of their child!

[Deleted User]

Why are you saying sorry? @harpseal135 Do. You.  🤷

I am only playing devil's advocate if you will, because clearly the provider bias in the United States is towards performing circumcisions.  (Arguably, pretty radical ones at that.)  A parent is not going to get provider pushback in most cases from making that choice for their child.  However, if choosing NOT to have it performed - in THIS country - parents are likely going to have to stand their ground if it's something they feel strongly about.  You're not stating a controversial opinion by saying that was / would have been your choice to do.  That is why I believe OP brought up the topic in the first place, to bring awareness to the opposite viewpoint.

swizzlemalarkey

@BusinessWife in my experience (my son was born September of last year). My providers were all very non-judgmental thankfully. I spoke to my midwife about it at one of my prenatal appointments. She told me it’s more expensive to get it done at the hospital and I found out that the pediatrician can do it at the office. Honestly circumcision wasn’t even brought up at the hospital.
*TW* I had a difficult labor/delivery and my son had an IV For antibiotics in his foot pretty much our whole stay so getting him circumcised was the last of my worries at that moment. Everything was all good though. 

*END TW*

However after conversations with my H we did decide to circumcise and we got that done when he was a week old and also a tongue-tie revision. But I had to bring it up that we wanted to do it. No one made us feel bad and I feel like it would’ve been the same either way. I’m sure they would give the statistics if we had asked what they recommended though but I had already done the research. We are in Oregon so I’m sure it varies in different parts of the country.

coco2787

@BusinessWife playing devils advocate usually doesn’t include making assumptions about people‘s personal choices and telling them that you feel sorry for them because in your opinion their reasons aren’t good enough. 

We chose not to circumcise our son and I don’t remember a single provider asking me about it. US circumcision rates are just over 50% which makes me inclined to believe that people are not being pressured into having it done. Sure, some providers feel strongly about it but let’s not assume people listening to their providers are doing so because they’re too ignorant to do research and make their own decision. 

[Deleted User]

@coco2787 I'm sure the emotional nature of my response to what the provider told another parent was colored by my own personal experiences of pediatrician fear mongering.  And I do stand my by *personal opinion* that any doctor who tried to market the procedure to me for *my child* on the basis of HIV prevention would no longer be my provider.  Period.

<div class=" Spoiler">In all loving kindness, I would sincerely hope someone does have a better reason than _______ <i>scary thing my doctor said and handed me literature about,</i> (and she indicated that were was in fact more that went into the decision than that), but you are absolutely right that at the end of the day it's not my kid, not my decision.  What do I care.</div>
Those kind of provider situations *do* make me a legit ragey however, because I have been in them more than once and I don't tolerate it anymore.

zuuls_mom

@BusinessWife may I ask why you keep singling out the HIV comment? HIV prevention is a valid reason for circumcision. And you're saying that if a medical professional noted that to you as a reason to have it done they "would no longer be your provider. Period." Seems a bit extreme to me to take something like that as fear mongering. Frankly, those comments are coming off as very classist and homophobic to me. Not a good look, sis. I'm sure you'll clutch your pearls over me saying that, but after seeing you mention only HIV in multiple comments that make you "ragey", that's how it is reading to me.

wishiwaspreggo

@zuuls_mom - YES, thank you when my pediatrician mentioned HIV I thought "What if he is gay?" Not to mention "What if he's lazy? What if he's too into the heat of the moment to use a condom? What if he's drunk and forgets?" With ANY STD, I want reduced transmission. And yes to you too, @cait32. Seeing an adult (or a child for that matter) undergoing something like a circumcision would be dreadful. My wife's coworker's little boy had a circumcision when he was 3 and we were visiting her house. The poor guy kept complaining about his penis hurting because he had a catheter stuck up there. Catheters are wicked awful whether you're male or female. My daughter got a UTI and I begged for the antibiotics without doing the cath but they refused.

And I'm not blind to doctor's mistakes. I had bronchitis and my OB insisted I take antibiotics (during my first pregnancy). I told her it's not a good idea to take antibiotics for a viral infection. She wrote me a script anyway and I threw it in the trash. Started feeling better a couple days later.

zuuls_mom

@BusinessWife I'd really love an answer to my question. And I know you're not busy cause you've been posting all over various threads. So....

emeraldcity1214

DH is a doctor and when he was in medical school or residency (I can’t remember which one) he had to sit through a seminar about a man whose foreskin got an infection and had adhered to his penis. He ended up needing to have the skin cut away from the head of his penis and then a circumcision to keep it from happening again. He walked away with strong convictions that our sons be circumcised. Even the idea of something like that happening to one of our sons was horrifying to him. So we have chosen circumcision every time. DH went back with our last son when the doctor did it and he said it wasn’t bad at all. He was giving him sugar water the entire time and he slept right through it. 

stacemom

emeraldcity1214 said:

DH is a doctor and when he was in medical school or residency (I can’t remember which one) he had to sit through a seminar about a man whose foreskin got an infection and had adhered to his penis. He ended up needing to have the skin cut away from the head of his penis and then a circumcision to keep it from happening again. He walked away with strong convictions that our sons be circumcised. Even the idea of something like that happening to one of our sons was horrifying to him. So we have chosen circumcision every time. DH went back with our last son when the doctor did it and he said it wasn’t bad at all. He was giving him sugar water the entire time and he slept right through it. 

You definitely have a point and I agree with it.

[Deleted User]

@zuuls_mom
<div class=" Spoiler">You don't know me (but apparently you're following me), and I'm not your sister.  I don't owe you any explanation.  Suffice it to say it's got zero to do with homophobia or CLASSISM. 🤦
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/t0/evs4csra989v.gif" alt="">
Spoiler alert: The answer to the question is not always to spin the wheel of, "because racism, because classism, because priviledge," etc. </div>
I did not wish to come back to this thread because certain individuals have chosen to single me out and attack me for whatever personal reasons, and I'm not interested.  I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I was attacked on this thread for reasons that have nothing to do with this thread, and lurkers took the opportunity to jump on board and pick me apart, too.  Frankly, it's tacky.

I have long been a well-respected member of this community, and I have no time or love for ANYONE WHO WOULD SEEK TO MAKE THE BUMP UNWELCOMING.  Which is exactly what certain individuals have done.

[Deleted User]

<span>From the article:
"circumcising males <i>seems </i>highly <i>desirable</i>, <i>especially in countries with a high prevalence of HIV infection</i>"

The article's conclusion is merely the authors's personal opinion, using terms like, "seems desirable," and then going on to state the rest.

</span>
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate" title="Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate</a>
Granted it's Wikipedia, but I had to scroll pretty far down this list to even get to the United States.  Which is where I live.  So.


Clearly my personal opinion is WRONG, because I'm a privileged homophobe.

That's how this reads to me.

wishiwaspreggo

@BusinessWife Funny because you were making TB "unwelcoming" by posting rude and condescending responses to those of us who chose circumcision for our sons and then getting nastier for being called out on it. I know you're a well-respected long standing member of the community which is why I was shocked by the tone of your reply after I said I listened to my pediatrician when he gave me medical advice. I always thought you were pro-science. That's the vibe of these boards which is what makes it better than other goofball boards that feast on crazy.

[Deleted User]

Now, I'm a Science-denier, too.  @wishiwasreggo  Which is about the WORST thing a person can be, right?  Thanks for that!

The study was done in Uganda.  Their rate of HIV infection (in 2017) was 6.1%.  That's a lot.  Top countries on the top of the list?  27%, 23%, 22%, 17%, 13%, 12, 12%, 12%, 9.5%, 7%, and then Uganda.

I snarked someone for citing science that I believe <u><i>does not support </i></u>the recommendation for parents <u><i>in a country where the rate of HIV infection is actually quite low, at 0.4%</i></u> (as of 2017).  I read the study, and I came to my own logical conclusion, which is like, what actual Scientists do.

You are just proving, case in point, that this thread turned into a witch hunt.




@cait32  Then you also remember that real snarkiness used to be such a joyous thing around here.  Now people can't even take a gif.
<img alt="Bored Kill Me GIF - Find Share on GIPHY" src="https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3oKIPbnrmUYev49pgA%2Fgiphy-downsized-large.gif&f=1&nofb=1">

zuuls_mom

@BusinessWife you were the one that kept bringing up HIV and acting like preventing it was so beneath you. Like how could anyone in your position with a child ever have to worry about a sexually transmitted disease! 🙄 you literally said you would find a new doctor over it. So yeah, it does sound classist and homophobic. You can be mad at me all you want over it, but it’s how your replies sound.

PS, just because you comment on every thread on TB doesn’t mean you’re well respected. 

[Deleted User]

@zuuls_mom Just because a couple of nasty girls decided to cancel me doesn't mean I deserve to be treated that way.  This is literally our first interaction and you've made up your mind (which says a lot about you), and yeah, I actually am, by any of the ladies who actually know me.  My response to the HIV issue was highly exaggerated because they decided to pounce on me here.  So honestly, if this doesn't constitute a SHIFT IN TOPIC @BumpAdmin I don't know what does.

zuuls_mom

@BusinessWife I’m not sure who is “canceling” you but all I did was point out that your attitude about being questioned about HIV prevention was incredibly holier than thou and I figured as an intelligent woman you would appreciate the education. Besides, you’re the one that kept mentioning HIV so I think I’ve remained on topic. 

wishiwaspreggo

Um... 0.4% is still too high of an infection rate. So I’m happy with my decision. We’re not on a witch hunt because you wouldn’t choose circumcision. Do what you think is best for your kids. But look back and what you wrote and tell me you don’t sound like a dick. I don’t understand why you’re being so defensive. A simple “Wow, I guess I didn’t see it that way, that makes sense for your family. Thanks for sharing your experience.” And boom, this thread never would’ve blown up like this 🤷‍♀️

swizzlemalarkey

harpseal135

What is so hard that everyone decides for themselves what they feel is best for their kid FFS! Stop worrying about what others do - if it doesn't affect you leave it ALONE!