Im just gonna throw out there that the first step of getting through any internal hardship is accepting it. If someone's struggling with something emotional, such as GD, (and the feelings of shame and guilt that go along with it) I don't think it's a big deal for them to open up a dialogue about it, if that helps them accept that they're feeling this way and process it in order to move through it.
In the same way, if someone who has been struggling with IF feels triggered or hurt or even just rubbed the wrong way when reading about the experience of the person dealing with GD, it's okay for them to open up a dialogue about those feelings as well. That way they can, in turn, process and move through their internal experience as well.
We can have these two discussions open and on the table without being hurtful on either end or overly offended on either end. Both of these scenarios, and so many others, deserve a voice here.
Its important that all of these dialogues are allowed to be kept open, without anyone feeling fear of being made shameful or guilty or like a bad mother because of it. It's important that we all remind one another, and ourselves, that feelings can't be right or wrong- they're all valid and they all just happen to exist for what they are at the time they're being felt. You can't work through something unless you feel comfortable admitting it not only to yourself, but outloud to others. No one should feel shamed into pushing their feelings down. These are all important discussions to have. We all come from different walks of life, but we need to remember to be respectful of others who may be having an experience which is ultimately very different from our own.
I hope that all made sense, I'm tired. Also if any of that felt like it was directed at one side or if I sound biased, my bad. It's not and I'm not. I really see where both sides of this issue come from, and I'm not saying anyone here is rignt or wrong.
I said I was stepping out I know... as someone who has suffered from IF and loss I know that I am especially triggered by GD. Through this discussion, most of you were very kind and concise, and helped me see another perspective. but some made me feel completely invalidated, and shamed. Why are GD feelings ok but mine aren’t? Why is it ok to invalidate my very real feelings?
I just deleted my post because I think @vflux33 and @jeanbean15 said it so much better.
I also didn't like how @heatherdubrow feelings weren't validated. Over the last few months she has shared why she might have that perspective, so I understand. I have my own reasons for liking her comment, but that was more from personal experiences than from a comment here. I think we can all learn from the dialogue.
I think that when people discuss "gender disappointment" (yes, correct term is sex disappointment but common term is gender disappointment) sometimes they forget how incredibly hurtful it can be to people who have suffered from loss and/or infertility. Frankly it hurts me whenever someone asks which I'm hoping for. My MIL asked, along with, "and don't just say that stupid 'as long as it's healthy thing.'" No, really. I do. not. care what sex either of my lost babies was. I just want my babies home in my arms.
At the same time, I get being a bit sad initially as you mourn the experience you imagined. And ultimately, the sex doesn't guarantee an experience. This kid is going to be who this kid is going to be. She may never want to get a single mani/pedi and want to play football instead and he may want to get mani/pedis instead of playing football.
No, I don't understand being devastated and talking about it like it's the worst thing ever. I think that when you're talking about it in mixed company like it's the worst thing ever, it's insensitive. And that's not directed at anyone here. I think it's completely fair to expect those experiencing disappointment to be gentle with their phrasing and to understand that it's appropriate to tread lightly just as those who find it hurtful are expected to be gentle. Personally, if I were feeling devastated, I would give it a TW and spoiler box it out of consideration for others. But that's just me.
I don't think @heatherdubrow 's comment was out of line. I think any assumption that it was directed at anyone in particular and to completely attack her was unfair.
And @hdaley I am honestly so confused. One day you seem to like us and to want to hang out. The next it's like a different person is using your profile and the approach is incredibly combative. I mean, go back and reread what your first comment on this thread. And the subsequent ones. It certainly didn't start with a discussion tone. I don't get it.
Me: 34 DH: 38 Married: June 2011 TTC since Feb 2016 BFP#1: 7/7/16 MMC: 8/16/16 BFP#2: 5/8/17 - CP BFP#3: 6/27/17 EDD: 3/10/18
I said I was stepping out I know... as someone who has suffered from IF and loss I know that I am especially triggered by GD. Through this discussion, most of you were very kind and concise, and helped me see another perspective. but some made me feel completely invalidated, and shamed. Why are GD feelings ok but mine aren’t? Why is it ok to invalidate my very real feelings?
I don’t have an issue with how you feel on that the GD subject. You have a right to your opinion. My issue is that I perceived your post to be made in an internet-bully kind of way. You feel invalidated and shamed, which is not a good feeling, but that’s exactly how I saw the intent of your original post to be to someone’s else. That was my issue.
@kiki75 I have stood by and watched far too many times without doing anything very despicable behavior a certain group of ladies has towards others. Very hateful and unsupportive. Hell I have even felt the wrath myself. Maybe it's because I wanted to be popular like them but then I realized I am an adult and I have a voice that allows me to stand up to bullies. And that's what I did. And I will do it again. People on here have genuine feelings and this discussion thread was made hours after a comment was made on a totally different thread. That is essentially running to your mommy to tell on someone else. If you can't see how spiteful and hurtful that is then I can't help you.
Baby #1: BFP on 10/12/2011, EDD 6/24/2012
Born: 6/16/2012 Boy!
Baby #2: BFP on 11/11/2016, EDD 7/25/2017 - MC 1/2/2017
I generally don't participate in this thread. Partly because I don't want to enter debates, partly because I KNOW how sensitive I am and that I do not have thick skin, and partly because UO was a big factor in splitting my last BMB group.
I lurk. And cry at some of the comments.
No further comments from me or I'll get too involved and it won't be good for my mental health.
@kiki75 I have stood by and watched far too many times without doing anything very despicable behavior a certain group of ladies has towards others. Very hateful and unsupportive. Hell I have even felt the wrath myself. Maybe it's because I wanted to be popular like them but then I realized I am an adult and I have a voice that allows me to stand up to bullies. And that's what I did. And I will do it again. People on here have genuine feelings and this discussion thread was made hours after a comment was made on a totally different thread. That is essentially running to your mommy to tell on someone else. If you can't see how spiteful and hurtful that is then I can't help you.
ETA: Quote to make it perfectly clear who I'm talking to and what I'm talking about.
It was a Thursday. UO Thursday is a weekly thread. Hers was a pretty common UO. And I still don't know who you think she was attacking. Not everyone keeps up on every single thread. Obviously, including you if you seem to think this "group" is always "very hateful and unsupportive". And I still don't believe that your approach here accomplishes anything helpful. Like I said, it was not done in a discussion tone. Reread your posts. Pot, meet perceived kettle.
Me: 34 DH: 38 Married: June 2011 TTC since Feb 2016 BFP#1: 7/7/16 MMC: 8/16/16 BFP#2: 5/8/17 - CP BFP#3: 6/27/17 EDD: 3/10/18
I said I was stepping out I know... as someone who has suffered from IF and loss I know that I am especially triggered by GD. Through this discussion, most of you were very kind and concise, and helped me see another perspective. but some made me feel completely invalidated, and shamed. Why are GD feelings ok but mine aren’t? Why is it ok to invalidate my very real feelings?
I get what you're saying and I'm offering a genuine aspect here. You never actually shared your feelings, but rather your opinions.
You blatantly state "not all feelings should be validated" so this is just your way.
You also ask why your feelings are ok to be invalidated and here's the thing: I've read through your posts here. I believe you genuinely meant to share feelings, but you shared opinions and feelings of others. You actually didn't share your own feelings. Others shared them for you "a loss makes it painful to hear x, y, z."
I totally get how hard it is to be vulnerable and say "I feel x bc of y." I get that 100%
As a community of support, I've committed to validating feelings that differ from my opinions, and sharing my perspective. I'm sorry you felt invalidated and I get that you feel that way. I'm just offering the genuine suggestion of actually sharing a feeling, rather than coming in, saying you don't believe in validating, not even sharing your feelings then saying your feelings were invalidated, when there were no feelings shared in the first place.
@hdaley You do realize that @barrelocarol pretty much did the exact same thing as you, but did it while actually utilizing the principles she thought might be lacking from the UO. She accomplished the same goal and didn't have to humiliate and hurt anyone else. I believe @heatherdubrow also explained to her that she was not trying to invalidate anyone's feelings, but had her own reasons for not really understanding. I get what you are saying, and I believe even I learned something here, but you are definitely perpetuating the negative culture and I hope you learned from @barrelocarol how to better handle it. If there are hard feelings from before, you might want to address them with whomever personally. I think you have a good heart, but your attitude is really crappy at times and if you want a board that is more love and light you might want to actually start practicing those principles.
@barrelocarol I said I don’t think EVERY feeling should be validated. Racist, sexist, hurtful feelings for just an example. ETA: I do appreciate your perspective here.
As far as bullying and calling out...had I been referring to a particular person I would have tagged them. GD comes up a lot, I shared my opinion. It was not about any one person. And @hdaley if I’m a bully, so are you. Your comments to me were just as mean as you think my comments were.
Since there is a constant sex/gender clarification, I need to clarify somthung else.
Feelings and opinions are not the same thing. A racists *thinks* they are superior, they don't *feel* superior. A chauvinist *believes* one group is inferior rather than *feels* this.
I feel vs I think are incredibly misused in society so I get the mingling of terms.
That's what makes all feelings not right or wrong. They don't infringe on anyone. My feeling sad or happy infringes on no one. My opinion is what infringes.
I'm sorry to over post, my intention isn't to be argumentative. Just had to clarify bc there is no such thing as an actually racist, sexist or hurtful feeling, if the person is correctly using the term. A racists who feels one race is superior/inferior is misusing the term in an ignorant way.
Since there is a constant sex/gender clarification, I need to clarify somthung else.
Feelings and opinions are not the same thing. A racists *thinks* they are superior, they don't *feel* superior. A chauvinist *believes* one group is inferior rather than *feels* this.
I feel vs I think are incredibly misused in society so I get the mingling of terms.
That's what makes all feelings not right or wrong. They don't infringe on anyone. My feeling sad or happy infringes on no one. My opinion is what infringes.
I'm sorry to over post, my intention isn't to be argumentative. Just had to clarify bc there is no such thing as an actually racist, sexist or hurtful feeling, if the person is correctly using the term. A racists who feels one race is superior/inferior is misusing the term in an ignorant way.
Totally late to the party - last I saw we were discussing the merits of candy corn.
But I'm not sure I agree with the above post. Being racist involves opinions, but it does involve feelings. If anything those opinions are validated mostly through feelings. The opinion is "x group of people are better/worse than y group of people" the feelings that go along/validate those opinions are "y group of people makes me furious/fearful/insecure".
Going along with this reasoning - no. Not ALL feelings should be validated. They can be heard - but validation to ME indicates that you are giving it merit. Not all feelings deserve merit.
I personally find posts about disappointment regarding a baby's sex disturbing on various levels, depending on what the situation is. Sometimes they are based out of sexist gender roles. Sometimes the husband/significant other is pressuring the woman and making her feel anxious. Sometimes that person is being simply callous and taking things for granted. Let me reiterate - this is done on various levels. Sometimes it's not worth more than a glance. Sometimes it is made up to be the end of the freaking world.
There have been many threads on this board of women leaving us. Not GBCBing, not rage quitting. Leaving us because they lost their baby. Do you think they would give two shits about the sex if they could get that baby back? There are women here who are pregnant with their rainbows. There are women here who struggled for years to get their baby. So if you think "gender disappointment" taken to the extent that we are currently discussing doesn't absolutely touch a very tender nerve of those women then you (general you, I'm not speaking to any specific person here) need to go sit in the corner and think quietly to yourself for a while.
Everyone CAN have their own feelings. But don't be surprised if your post complaining that you got a boy when you just wanted a sweet little ballerina pisses a ton of women off.
ETA: Story time!
So both of my sisters are also KU right now. They both had sons for their first baby so they were/are hoping for girls this time around. Sister #1 found out she's having a boy. I'm sure there was a flash of disappointment at that scan. She did mention that she was hoping for a girl but that's about it. She didn't go on and on - she acknowledged her feelings and then focused on the good parts (having a sibling of the same sex can be great for bonding and a lifelong close relationship!). Sister #2 is team green... despite REALLY wanting a girl. Every time she throws up she says stuff like "This BETTER be a girl" and I have to stuff my feelings way down to avoid being like "Oh well if it's a boy then you can just send him to me and try again since it only took you two weeks to conceive." I actually hope she has a girl just so the boy doesn't take it's first poor little breath in this world feeling like a disappointment to her - because that's how intensely she is working this issue up to. I acknowledge Sister #2s feelings are real in the way I know she's not making them up... but the things she says and the proportion she works this up to is ridiculous, hurtful, and not productive to anyone on this Earth.
@barrelocarol I think your posts about feel vs think are really interesting and insightful. As someone who's hoping to go to college to get an applied behavioral psychology degree, I really like reading what you have to say.
I know we've beat this topic to death, but I was to say I liked the original GD post (the one everyone thinks @heatherdubrow was targeting) because while I have a hard time dealing with the extreme language (TW after my own loss, I'm one the women here who just really and truly wanted a healthy baby), I do want her to feel like her feelings are valid (and one day, when she overcomes those feelings, she's probably going to feel pretty shitty about having them in the first place and I want her to know it's okay.)
I also like Heather's original post in this UO because I 100% understand where she comes from. Just like I've also like all of @barrelocarol posts because I'll admit it did rub me the wrong way that it seemed a UO post was made to essentially "subtweet" another member here. But I can see now that wasn't the intent of any of the posts here and many women just wanted to have a discussion about something we have passionate thoughts and feelings about. We just maybe didn't go about it in the best way.
Overall, I think the majority of the women on this board are wonderful, caring people who don't post to intentionally hurt someone. If I didn't really believe that I would have GBCB'd a long time ago.
Holy thread explosion. When I read @heatherdubrow's post, I didn't think it was all that controversial. Disappointment is one thing; devastation is another. Maybe I am misreading what she posted, but what I took from it was that if the sex of your baby gives you feelings that rise to that of devastation, then perhaps you are a person who regularly has extreme feelings for all kinds of things. I think that's probably a pretty fair assumption, for the most part, with exceptions. I know there was a post of a mom recently with heartbreaking reasons for preferring one sex over the other, and I don't think anyone can find fault in that.
I recently found out my third and final kiddo is going to be a boy, which makes three boys for me. I will admit to having to mourn (even that word is a bit much and doesn't feel quite right to use, so I'm open to another) the idea of ever raising a girl. I never imagined I would *not* raise a girl. But I wouldn't say I'm even mildly disappointed, and I'm certainly not devastated.
I also didn't see her as calling anyone out in particular. There have been a lot of posts here and IRL expressing disappointment over the sex of the baby, extreme and otherwise. If you subscribe to any mom blogs at all, you'll see it on the reg. If she was referring to any one post from here, that went right over my head.
Mostly I take issue with this group or its members being accused of "despicable behavior." I just don't see it. THis is my third BMB, and they all have their own dynamic. This one has a great balance of being supportive and kind without sacrificing humor, common sense, and honesty. And humor. And humor. And humor.
***March '18 October Siggy Challenge: Halloween Costume Fails***
Re: UO 10/5
In the same way, if someone who has been struggling with IF feels triggered or hurt or even just rubbed the wrong way when reading about the experience of the person dealing with GD, it's okay for them to open up a dialogue about those feelings as well. That way they can, in turn, process and move through their internal experience as well.
We can have these two discussions open and on the table without being hurtful on either end or overly offended on either end. Both of these scenarios,
and so many others, deserve a voice here.
Its important that all of these dialogues are allowed to be kept open, without anyone feeling fear of being made shameful or guilty or like a bad mother because of it. It's important that we all remind one another, and ourselves, that feelings can't be right or wrong- they're all valid and they all just happen to exist for what they are at the time they're being felt. You can't work through something unless you feel comfortable admitting it not only to yourself, but outloud to others. No one should feel shamed into pushing their feelings down. These are all important discussions to have. We all come from different walks of life, but we need to remember to be respectful of others who may be having an experience which is ultimately very different from our own.
I hope that all made sense, I'm tired. Also if any of that felt like it was directed at one side or if I sound biased, my bad. It's not and I'm not. I really see where both sides of this issue come from, and I'm not saying anyone here is rignt or wrong.
Edit cause autocorrect
We’re all this together, ladies. I think we’re a pretty great group
I also didn't like how @heatherdubrow feelings weren't validated. Over the last few months she has shared why she might have that perspective, so I understand. I have my own reasons for liking her comment, but that was more from personal experiences than from a comment here. I think we can all learn from the dialogue.
Edit for *here
I think that when people discuss "gender disappointment" (yes, correct term is sex disappointment but common term is gender disappointment) sometimes they forget how incredibly hurtful it can be to people who have suffered from loss and/or infertility. Frankly it hurts me whenever someone asks which I'm hoping for. My MIL asked, along with, "and don't just say that stupid 'as long as it's healthy thing.'" No, really. I do. not. care what sex either of my lost babies was. I just want my babies home in my arms.
At the same time, I get being a bit sad initially as you mourn the experience you imagined. And ultimately, the sex doesn't guarantee an experience. This kid is going to be who this kid is going to be. She may never want to get a single mani/pedi and want to play football instead and he may want to get mani/pedis instead of playing football.
No, I don't understand being devastated and talking about it like it's the worst thing ever. I think that when you're talking about it in mixed company like it's the worst thing ever, it's insensitive. And that's not directed at anyone here. I think it's completely fair to expect those experiencing disappointment to be gentle with their phrasing and to understand that it's appropriate to tread lightly just as those who find it hurtful are expected to be gentle. Personally, if I were feeling devastated, I would give it a TW and spoiler box it out of consideration for others. But that's just me.
I don't think @heatherdubrow 's comment was out of line. I think any assumption that it was directed at anyone in particular and to completely attack her was unfair.
And @hdaley I am honestly so confused. One day you seem to like us and to want to hang out. The next it's like a different person is using your profile and the approach is incredibly combative. I mean, go back and reread what your first comment on this thread. And the subsequent ones. It certainly didn't start with a discussion tone. I don't get it.
Married: June 2011
TTC since Feb 2016
BFP#1: 7/7/16 MMC: 8/16/16
BFP#2: 5/8/17 - CP
BFP#3: 6/27/17 EDD: 3/10/18
EDD March 12, 2018
Baby #1: BFP on 10/12/2011, EDD 6/24/2012 Born: 6/16/2012 Boy!
Baby #2: BFP on 11/11/2016, EDD 7/25/2017 - MC 1/2/2017
I generally don't participate in this thread. Partly because I don't want to enter debates, partly because I KNOW how sensitive I am and that I do not have thick skin, and partly because UO was a big factor in splitting my last BMB group.
I lurk. And cry at some of the comments.
No further comments from me or I'll get too involved and it won't be good for my mental health.
It was a Thursday. UO Thursday is a weekly thread. Hers was a pretty common UO. And I still don't know who you think she was attacking. Not everyone keeps up on every single thread. Obviously, including you if you seem to think this "group" is always "very hateful and unsupportive". And I still don't believe that your approach here accomplishes anything helpful. Like I said, it was not done in a discussion tone. Reread your posts. Pot, meet perceived kettle.
Married: June 2011
TTC since Feb 2016
BFP#1: 7/7/16 MMC: 8/16/16
BFP#2: 5/8/17 - CP
BFP#3: 6/27/17 EDD: 3/10/18
You blatantly state "not all feelings should be validated" so this is just your way.
You also ask why your feelings are ok to be invalidated and here's the thing: I've read through your posts here. I believe you genuinely meant to share feelings, but you shared opinions and feelings of others. You actually didn't share your own feelings. Others shared them for you "a loss makes it painful to hear x, y, z."
I totally get how hard it is to be vulnerable and say "I feel x bc of y." I get that 100%
As a community of support, I've committed to validating feelings that differ from my opinions, and sharing my perspective. I'm sorry you felt invalidated and I get that you feel that way. I'm just offering the genuine suggestion of actually sharing a feeling, rather than coming in, saying you don't believe in validating, not even sharing your feelings then saying your feelings were invalidated, when there were no feelings shared in the first place.
ETA: I do appreciate your perspective here.
As far as bullying and calling out...had I been referring to a particular person I would have tagged them. GD comes up a lot, I shared my opinion. It was not about any one person.
And @hdaley if I’m a bully, so are you. Your comments to me were just as mean as you think my comments were.
Feelings and opinions are not the same thing. A racists *thinks* they are superior, they don't *feel* superior. A chauvinist *believes* one group is inferior rather than *feels* this.
I feel vs I think are incredibly misused in society so I get the mingling of terms.
That's what makes all feelings not right or wrong. They don't infringe on anyone. My feeling sad or happy infringes on no one. My opinion is what infringes.
I'm sorry to over post, my intention isn't to be argumentative. Just had to clarify bc there is no such thing as an actually racist, sexist or hurtful feeling, if the person is correctly using the term. A racists who feels one race is superior/inferior is misusing the term in an ignorant way.
But I'm not sure I agree with the above post. Being racist involves opinions, but it does involve feelings. If anything those opinions are validated mostly through feelings. The opinion is "x group of people are better/worse than y group of people" the feelings that go along/validate those opinions are "y group of people makes me furious/fearful/insecure".
Going along with this reasoning - no. Not ALL feelings should be validated. They can be heard - but validation to ME indicates that you are giving it merit. Not all feelings deserve merit.
I personally find posts about disappointment regarding a baby's sex disturbing on various levels, depending on what the situation is. Sometimes they are based out of sexist gender roles. Sometimes the husband/significant other is pressuring the woman and making her feel anxious. Sometimes that person is being simply callous and taking things for granted. Let me reiterate - this is done on various levels. Sometimes it's not worth more than a glance. Sometimes it is made up to be the end of the freaking world.
There have been many threads on this board of women leaving us. Not GBCBing, not rage quitting. Leaving us because they lost their baby. Do you think they would give two shits about the sex if they could get that baby back? There are women here who are pregnant with their rainbows. There are women here who struggled for years to get their baby. So if you think "gender disappointment" taken to the extent that we are currently discussing doesn't absolutely touch a very tender nerve of those women then you (general you, I'm not speaking to any specific person here) need to go sit in the corner and think quietly to yourself for a while.
Everyone CAN have their own feelings. But don't be surprised if your post complaining that you got a boy when you just wanted a sweet little ballerina pisses a ton of women off.
ETA: Story time!
So both of my sisters are also KU right now. They both had sons for their first baby so they were/are hoping for girls this time around. Sister #1 found out she's having a boy. I'm sure there was a flash of disappointment at that scan. She did mention that she was hoping for a girl but that's about it. She didn't go on and on - she acknowledged her feelings and then focused on the good parts (having a sibling of the same sex can be great for bonding and a lifelong close relationship!). Sister #2 is team green... despite REALLY wanting a girl. Every time she throws up she says stuff like "This BETTER be a girl" and I have to stuff my feelings way down to avoid being like "Oh well if it's a boy then you can just send him to me and try again since it only took you two weeks to conceive." I actually hope she has a girl just so the boy doesn't take it's first poor little breath in this world feeling like a disappointment to her - because that's how intensely she is working this issue up to. I acknowledge Sister #2s feelings are real in the way I know she's not making them up... but the things she says and the proportion she works this up to is ridiculous, hurtful, and not productive to anyone on this Earth.
I know we've beat this topic to death, but I was to say I liked the original GD post (the one everyone thinks @heatherdubrow was targeting) because while I have a hard time dealing with the extreme language (TW after my own loss, I'm one the women here who just really and truly wanted a healthy baby), I do want her to feel like her feelings are valid (and one day, when she overcomes those feelings, she's probably going to feel pretty shitty about having them in the first place and I want her to know it's okay.)
I also like Heather's original post in this UO because I 100% understand where she comes from. Just like I've also like all of @barrelocarol posts because I'll admit it did rub me the wrong way that it seemed a UO post was made to essentially "subtweet" another member here. But I can see now that wasn't the intent of any of the posts here and many women just wanted to have a discussion about something we have passionate thoughts and feelings about. We just maybe didn't go about it in the best way.
Overall, I think the majority of the women on this board are wonderful, caring people who don't post to intentionally hurt someone. If I didn't really believe that I would have GBCB'd a long time ago.
I recently found out my third and final kiddo is going to be a boy, which makes three boys for me. I will admit to having to mourn (even that word is a bit much and doesn't feel quite right to use, so I'm open to another) the idea of ever raising a girl. I never imagined I would *not* raise a girl. But I wouldn't say I'm even mildly disappointed, and I'm certainly not devastated.
I also didn't see her as calling anyone out in particular. There have been a lot of posts here and IRL expressing disappointment over the sex of the baby, extreme and otherwise. If you subscribe to any mom blogs at all, you'll see it on the reg. If she was referring to any one post from here, that went right over my head.
Mostly I take issue with this group or its members being accused of "despicable behavior." I just don't see it. THis is my third BMB, and they all have their own dynamic. This one has a great balance of being supportive and kind without sacrificing humor, common sense, and honesty. And humor. And humor. And humor.