I must have missed that verse. Where exactly does the bible say that being transgender is wrong? I think the bible had a lot more to say against the rest of the Kardashians' lifestyles than about Bruce's.
Deuterononmy 22:5
A woman must not wear mens clothing, nor a man wear womens clothing,, for the LORD your God detest anyone who does this.
so it says it pretty clearly.....
I'm wearing pants today so I guess I'm in trouble! :-/
I must have missed that verse. Where exactly does the bible say that being transgender is wrong?
I think the bible had a lot more to say against the rest of the Kardashians' lifestyles than about Bruce's.
Deuterononmy 22:5
A woman must not wear mens clothing, nor a man wear womens clothing,, for the LORD your God detest anyone who does this.
so it says it pretty clearly.....
@Knottie1427773476 really wearing womens clothing to me isnt an awful horrible sin. . But to grow boobs and cut off parts God gave him is a whole other story. On the interview last night he pretty much came out and said that God messed up when he made him, and that he was suppose to be born a girl/woman. I just dont find that to be true, god made us all a certain way on purpose. . I mean he wouldnt have any of his beautiful children that he had with women if God would have made him a woman at birth.
And i'm going to also assume that you think plastic surgery and tattoos are absolutely wrong. And cutting your hair, come on.. God gave you that hair and you're cutting it off?
Because, you know, if you think about your body as lots of tiny little cells, altering one or thousands is pretty much the same.
If you want to nitpick about changing a body that you're lucky to have, then that's a pretty weak argument.
There ARE hardcore religious people who don't cut their hair, pierce their skin or tattoo anything. They're called Sikhs. And as far as I know, Sikhs aren't worried about Caitlyn. They also don't decide for themselves what parts of their belief system are ok and which ones they can skirt.
Not saying you do but it's pretty clear that a lot of people do. I mean people go on and on about the gay thing in leviticus. Totally failing to mention that leviticus also says if you're disabled or ugly, you go to hell too.
I went to a class about mental illness where I met the mother of a boy who thought he had another boy named Jacob living inside of him. He was institutionalized. Isn't this the same thing? I'm not saying Bruce is bad or less of a person but I do think it's a mental abnormality. I think he is courages for letting his "crazy" show.
He doesn't have multiple personalities for crying out loud. That is a totally different thing. Multiple personalities is a type of dissociative disorder, not transgender identity. Google dissociative disorders and see just how completely NOT RELATED TO THIS IN THE LEAST they are. He didn't become a different PERSON. He became a different GENDER. HE is now a SHE, not somebody entirely different with no memories of being anybody else, with parts of the memory and perosnality shut down (Which is what dissociative disorders hallmark)
Ugh. Fine. In the interest of clearing up ridiculous misinformation and medieval paranoia. Here is the theory as to why transgender identity happens:
I've copied and pasted this from somewhere else (they're my words, i just had to post them already today) so the font may vary. Here is the theory as to why people become transgender.
It appears to be something that happens VERY early on in the womb. Gender is determined at the moment of conception but its various pieces DEVELOP over the first trimester.
They believe now that with transgendered people, something happens between conception and full gender completion. So the baby is determined to be an XY at conception but then, for whatever reason, develops as a female. So this child will be born looking like a female and developing like a female but will ACTUALLY be male. And will feel male and for all intents and purposes, IS MALE. That's how it works, apparently. I'm not sure what this means in terms of chromosomes.. I don't know much about the details, only that this is the theory. How much of it is nurture (and some people believe it's all nurture) remains to be seen.
I'm sorry but this hyper-stupid focus on what somebody looks like being who they are is the height of complete shallowness.
PLEASE do not pass bigotry onto your children. Because by the time they're adults, they will be shunned for holding these sorts of prejudices. Fifty years ago, these were the same words being spoken about interracial marriage. And look how stupid those naysayers look to us now. BECAUSE WE KNOW BETTER.
Believe what you want, feel how you want, it's ok to be confused and feel awkward about this subject. But don't raise your kids to hate. Hate is not a good start in life.
He doesn't have multiple personalities for crying out loud. That is a totally different thing. Multiple personalities is a type of dissociative disorder, not transgender identity. Google dissociative disorders and see just how completely NOT RELATED TO THIS IN THE LEAST they are. He didn't become a different PERSON. He became a different GENDER. HE is now a SHE, not somebody entirely different with no memories of being anybody else, with parts of the memory and perosnality shut down (Which is what dissociative disorders hallmark)
Ugh. Fine. In the interest of clearing up ridiculous misinformation and medieval paranoia. Here is the theory as to why transgender identity happens:
I've copied and pasted this from somewhere else (they're my words, i just had to post them already today) so the font may vary. Here is the theory as to why people become transgender.
It appears to be something that happens VERY early on in the womb. Gender is determined at the moment of conception but its various pieces DEVELOP over the first trimester.
They believe now that with transgendered people, something happens between conception and full gender completion. So the baby is determined to be an XY at conception but then, for whatever reason, develops as a female. So this child will be born looking like a female and developing like a female but will ACTUALLY be male. And will feel male and for all intents and purposes, IS MALE. That's how it works, apparently. I'm not sure what this means in terms of chromosomes.. I don't know much about the details, only that this is the theory. How much of it is nurture (and some people believe it's all nurture) remains to be seen.
Thank you so much for having the patience to write this. I was just flabbergasted at what @masher22 said and you put it so eloquently and nicely.
I think what I think as do you. Like you stated it's a theory not fact. Research on Mental illnesses is a lot like that too. It's hard for doctors to figure out why these things happen in the mind. I have no hate. Just confusing to me.
@masher22 it is very confusing to try to understand what it feels like, even with mental health training (i have a masters in counseling psychology) and knowing someone who recently transitioned from female to male... but even if you cant truly understand what it is like to be that person that doesnt mean it's a mental illness or "crazy." Hopefully Bruce transitioning to Caitlyn will shed some light on transgendered individuals and we can all be educated a little more.
My problem with the Bible is that is was written by men over 1000 yrs ago. Organized religion is a mechanism of control that is essential to patriarchal society. Not to mention that before that time period, God was a woman the world over, and all of the major religions (not just Christianity) cannibalized her symbols (i.e. the trinity). It's SCIENCE (anthropology)!!! Just kidding.
If you guys are interested in transgender issues though, check out this little girl... poor thing, but so brave!
Okay. Just so you understand, this is the year 2015 going by the standard of time considered ad. So it is 2015 A.D. Can we agree on that? The AD stands for anno domini, meaning after the death of Christ in English, anno domini is Latin and denotes the time after the death of Jesus.
We were talking about the Old Testament just so that we're clear about that too. The Old Testament is actually the Torah which comes from the Jewish religion and was originally written in Aramaic. The Jewish year currently is 5775. Although the Old Testament was written by man (Moses to be precise,) it needs to be said that Moses was simply a scribe. He is considered a prophet due to the fact that G-d spoke to him. The belief is that Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets (the 10 commandments,) and then wrote the Bible (Torah) based upon what he was told to. There may be a theologian on the board that may be able to better delineate this process then I can here. What I am saying is the generic version. In any case, you should know that Judaism does not assign a gender to G-d and never has. The term Him or He (using the masculine) is used as a default in texts for simplification. In modern-day text, G-d is often referred to as he/she in Reform Judaism. The theory is that The Lord is neither a man nor a woman. Rather, an omnipresent being. Never, was G-d considered a woman in Judaism. Prior to Judaism, the only monotheistic religion that existed the grand scale was Zoroastrianism. If you follow the news at all, you would see these people are currently being persecuted in Syria (Yazidis.) It's been a long time since I took theology and monotheistic religions; it has not been so long that I cannot see the clear errors in your statement.
Jesus was a Jew.
So… If we are all created in G-d's image and G-d has no gender, why should Caitlyn Jenner be less than holy? Perhaps the former Bruce Jenner felt like a woman because he had a woman's soul? Perhaps this was a challenge that was given to him/her? Perhaps this was a challenge that was given to him/her by G-d and the answer is that none of us know! We can all believe whatever it is that we would like to believe, but let's not start spewing hatred in the sense of pseudo-religion.
* edited to add that Judaism has never and will never cannibalize the symbols of G-d. Also, if you've ever met any Jewish people then you would know that it's not a patriarchal society. LOL!
I must have missed that verse. Where exactly does the bible say that being transgender is wrong? I think the bible had a lot more to say against the rest of the Kardashians' lifestyles than about Bruce's.
Deuterononmy 22:5
A woman must not wear mens clothing, nor a man wear womens clothing,, for the LORD your God detest anyone who does this.
so it says it pretty clearly.....
Actually, it is not said so clearly. The titles "man" and "woman", reference identities, not genitalia. Caitlyn is not a man dressing in women's clothes. She is a woman dressing in women's clothes. Although she was born with male genitalia, she identified as a woman and presents herself accordingly. If there anything specific in the bible stating that a person must not identify with an identity that does not match their reproductive organs? I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically. If not, I'd have to say that she's not done anything that opposes the bible.
^ yes I agree. When judgment day comes God will know what to do. God's the only one who knows the heart and soul of a person.
On a different note I still like Brucilla (not sure what to call her) and I will continue to watch the show and her show coming out in summer. I always felt bad for bruce on KUWTK it was like his family would constantly walk on him and make him feel bad. I hope everyone to find peace and happiness.
I am all for trans genders and all but this is a bay website not a celebrity info web........
You don't have to look at this board. There are tons of baby related boards and non-baby related boards. It's a community and sometimes I love getting my mind away from the stress of pregnancy.
I am all for trans genders and all but this is a bay website not a celebrity info web........
That's why the title says NBR.. It's a warning that it's "not bump/baby related" . Who made you the Bump police? If you don't like the thread then scroll on past. Obv 60 other people who commented have no problem with it. Get over yourself.
All that should matter when someone goes through a change or reveals their true self is that they are free and happy. What is it to you if they are not doing what you believe in?
Due 11.16.17 Baby Girl 12.9.15
MC 2.1.15 @ 5 W - Chemical MC 4.7.14 @ 21 W - Turners Syndrome
ooo I did not read it right and my hormones makes my have temper......I get fostered for no reason....but it also was just my option like everyone elses
ooo I did not read it right and my hormones makes my have temper......I get fostered for no reason....but it also was just my option like everyone elses
I read your post the right way. People are entitled to post non-bump related things. I meant no offense by stating this. It's fun to get to know each other as people, not just baby machines.
I went to a class about mental illness where I met the mother of a boy who thought he had another boy named Jacob living inside of him. He was institutionalized. Isn't this the same thing? I'm not saying Bruce is bad or less of a person but I do think it's a mental abnormality. I think he is courages for letting his "crazy" show.
I so hesitate to get involved in this. But, screw it, I'm bored. My husband laid out an interesting theory last night about Bruce Jenner specifically and how he really isn't a good representation of transgendered people. Here it goes, this should be fun
When they look back at young men who were taking performance enhancing drugs, which he was, they find many of them later in life start identifying as female. The steroids makes the body naturally reduce the amount of testosterone it produces. Then later in life the natural testosterone gets estrofied, for lack of a better term. He explained the chemistry of it, escapes me now. This is why you will see see male body builders of athletes in later life develope breasts for exams. This is a theory of what MAY be happening to Bruce, specifically. He hasn't always felt like a woman, just later in life due to something he specifically did to his body.
This obviously isn't representative of most transgendered people. And why I'm not sure he should be the voice of a population that has naturally felt like this their whole life. But I suppose if he gives a voice to this and can help people understand, then in the end it's a good thing. Just some food for thought. Different way to look at this particular situation.
As a Christian, can I just point out "he that is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Can we all just appreciate that style? I wish I looked that good in that red dress lol!
@kimb311 that's nice and all but did you or your DH watch the interview? In the interview he said that he put his sister's dresses on at 8 years old. He even told his sister about stealing her clothes in the 80's. She of course was shocked. He also told his previous wives about being a woman in his soul, in the 80's.
Either way, he says he's known this since he was 8 years old so I believe him.
I admit I didn't see all of it, had a sick kiddo that night. Like I said just a theory. Thought I would throw it out there. And again, like I said in my post, if he brings attention to the issue its a win. That's all I got on the subject! Continue the debate ladies! Edited to add. I never said I didn't believe him. Just that his particular case may MAY differ from the general transgender population. I believe him completely that he identifies as a woman.
I was not going to say anything on this post, but I ran across an article this morning and thought I'd share because it's interesting and I think it should be thought provoking. I will say I'm not a Conservative nor am I a liberal, I'm just me. I will also say that while I understand intolerance of an idea, if it opposes your idea, intolerance of a person whether you think they are right or wrong really displays an ugliness that we should all avoid especially carrying around these bumpies. A lot of you don't think how I think about this, but I will not attack you as people, women, or mothers because at the end of the day, that's where I believe our identity lies - not in our sexual or gender desires or how we feel about those desires. I have compassion for Bruce even though I don't understand it all. Peace, Love and hair grease... happy bumping to all of you!
He doesn't have multiple personalities for crying out loud. That is a totally different thing. Multiple personalities is a type of dissociative disorder, not transgender identity. Google dissociative disorders and see just how completely NOT RELATED TO THIS IN THE LEAST they are. He didn't become a different PERSON. He became a different GENDER. HE is now a SHE, not somebody entirely different with no memories of being anybody else, with parts of the memory and perosnality shut down (Which is what dissociative disorders hallmark)
Ugh. Fine. In the interest of clearing up ridiculous misinformation and medieval paranoia. Here is the theory as to why transgender identity happens:
I've copied and pasted this from somewhere else (they're my words, i just had to post them already today) so the font may vary. Here is the theory as to why people become transgender.
It appears to be something that happens VERY early on in the womb. Gender is determined at the moment of conception but its various pieces DEVELOP over the first trimester.
They believe now that with transgendered people, something happens between conception and full gender completion. So the baby is determined to be an XY at conception but then, for whatever reason, develops as a female. So this child will be born looking like a female and developing like a female but will ACTUALLY be male. And will feel male and for all intents and purposes, IS MALE. That's how it works, apparently. I'm not sure what this means in terms of chromosomes.. I don't know much about the details, only that this is the theory. How much of it is nurture (and some people believe it's all nurture) remains to be seen.
Transgender people usually have the chromosomes for their sex (so Caitlyn genetically is XY). I believe the thinking is it has to do with genetics and especially prenatal androgen exposure. But I haven't read too much on it (but have been reading up on the causes of homosexuality, really fascinating stuff).
I'm also grateful to live in a society where people like Caitlyn are free to be themselves. Yes, there will always be critics, and we do have a ways to go on some things, but it's getting better and better every day.
Not sure if anyone watches Vice but I saw an episode where they discussed homosexuals in Iran. Homosexuality is banned but the country allows sex reassignment and even pays for up to half of the surgery. Because of religious reasons, the country considers being transgender as a "diagnosis" - a small sin, where homosexuality is punishable by death. So a lot of Iranians resort to it for more acceptance and belonging. Just thought it was very interesting.
Due 11.16.17 Baby Girl 12.9.15
MC 2.1.15 @ 5 W - Chemical MC 4.7.14 @ 21 W - Turners Syndrome
Not sure if anyone watches Vice but I saw an episode where they discussed homosexuals in Iran. Homosexuality is banned but the country allows sex reassignment and even pays for up to half of the surgery. Because of religious reasons, the country considers being transgender as a "diagnosis" - a small sin, where homosexuality is punishable by death. So a lot of Iranians resort to it for more acceptance and belonging. Just thought it was very interesting.
I was not going to say anything on this post, but I ran across an article this morning and thought I'd share because it's interesting and I think it should be thought provoking. I will say I'm not a Conservative nor am I a liberal, I'm just me. I will also say that while I understand intolerance of an idea, if it opposes your idea, intolerance of a person whether you think they are right or wrong really displays an ugliness that we should all avoid especially carrying around these bumpies. A lot of you don't think how I think about this, but I will not attack you as people, women, or mothers because at the end of the day, that's where I believe our identity lies - not in our sexual or gender desires or how we feel about those desires. I have compassion for Bruce even though I don't understand it all. Peace, Love and hair grease... happy bumping to all of you!
Re: NBR - Bruce Jenner interview
Baby Girl 12.9.15
MC 4.7.14 @ 21 W - Turners Syndrome
Now let's hear it for every other aspect of religion that encourages love and compassion for one another, and for ourselves!!
And no, it's not "different".
Because, you know, if you think about your body as lots of tiny little cells, altering one or thousands is pretty much the same.
If you want to nitpick about changing a body that you're lucky to have, then that's a pretty weak argument.
There ARE hardcore religious people who don't cut their hair, pierce their skin or tattoo anything. They're called Sikhs. And as far as I know, Sikhs aren't worried about Caitlyn. They also don't decide for themselves what parts of their belief system are ok and which ones they can skirt.
Not saying you do but it's pretty clear that a lot of people do. I mean people go on and on about the gay thing in leviticus. Totally failing to mention that leviticus also says if you're disabled or ugly, you go to hell too.
it's right there. It's there in Leviticus.
Ugh. Fine. In the interest of clearing up ridiculous misinformation and medieval paranoia. Here is the theory as to why transgender identity happens:
I've copied and pasted this from somewhere else (they're my words, i just had to post them already today) so the font may vary. Here is the theory as to why people become transgender.
They believe now that with transgendered people, something happens between conception and full gender completion. So the baby is determined to be an XY at conception but then, for whatever reason, develops as a female. So this child will be born looking like a female and developing like a female but will ACTUALLY be male. And will feel male and for all intents and purposes, IS MALE.
That's how it works, apparently. I'm not sure what this means in terms of chromosomes.. I don't know much about the details, only that this is the theory.
How much of it is nurture (and some people believe it's all nurture) remains to be seen.
PLEASE do not pass bigotry onto your children. Because by the time they're adults, they will be shunned for holding these sorts of prejudices. Fifty years ago, these were the same words being spoken about interracial marriage. And look how stupid those naysayers look to us now. BECAUSE WE KNOW BETTER.
We were talking about the Old Testament just so that we're clear about that too. The Old Testament is actually the Torah which comes from the Jewish religion and was originally written in Aramaic. The Jewish year currently is 5775. Although the Old Testament was written by man (Moses to be precise,) it needs to be said that Moses was simply a scribe. He is considered a prophet due to the fact that G-d spoke to him. The belief is that Moses came down from the mountain with the tablets (the 10 commandments,) and then wrote the Bible (Torah) based upon what he was told to. There may be a theologian on the board that may be able to better delineate this process then I can here. What I am saying is the generic version. In any case, you should know that Judaism does not assign a gender to G-d and never has. The term Him or He (using the masculine) is used as a default in texts for simplification. In modern-day text, G-d is often referred to as he/she in Reform Judaism. The theory is that The Lord is neither a man nor a woman. Rather, an omnipresent being. Never, was G-d considered a woman in Judaism. Prior to Judaism, the only monotheistic religion that existed the grand scale was Zoroastrianism. If you follow the news at all, you would see these people are currently being persecuted in Syria (Yazidis.) It's been a long time since I took theology and monotheistic religions; it has not been so long that I cannot see the clear errors in your statement.
Jesus was a Jew.
So… If we are all created in G-d's image and G-d has no gender, why should Caitlyn Jenner be less than holy? Perhaps the former Bruce Jenner felt like a woman because he had a woman's soul? Perhaps this was a challenge that was given to him/her? Perhaps this was a challenge that was given to him/her by G-d and the answer is that none of us know! We can all believe whatever it is that we would like to believe, but let's not start spewing hatred in the sense of pseudo-religion.
* edited to add that Judaism has never and will never cannibalize the symbols of G-d. Also, if you've ever met any Jewish people then you would know that it's not a patriarchal society. LOL!
I am all for trans genders and all but this is a bay website not a celebrity info web........
Zero to 100. I'm going to go make breakfast.
I'm a lover not a fighter I swear!!!
Baby Girl 12.9.15
MC 4.7.14 @ 21 W - Turners Syndrome
Seriously? Is this for real?
When they look back at young men who were taking performance enhancing drugs, which he was, they find many of them later in life start identifying as female. The steroids makes the body naturally reduce the amount of testosterone it produces. Then later in life the natural testosterone gets estrofied, for lack of a better term. He explained the chemistry of it, escapes me now. This is why you will see see male body builders of athletes in later life develope breasts for exams. This is a theory of what MAY be happening to Bruce, specifically. He hasn't always felt like a woman, just later in life due to something he specifically did to his body.
This obviously isn't representative of most transgendered people. And why I'm not sure he should be the voice of a population that has naturally felt like this their whole life. But I suppose if he gives a voice to this and can help people understand, then in the end it's a good thing. Just some food for thought. Different way to look at this particular situation.
Either way, he says he's known this since he was 8 years old so I believe him.
Edited to add. I never said I didn't believe him. Just that his particular case may MAY differ from the general transgender population. I believe him completely that he identifies as a woman.
Baby Girl 12.9.15
MC 4.7.14 @ 21 W - Turners Syndrome
I will respond with this https://www.upworthy.com/if-you-dont-understand-why-using-her-name-caitlyn-jenner-matters-this-should-help?c=ufb1%3Fc%3Dbl3 No, it's not written by a John Hopkins psychiatrist. But why can't we support people who are trying to just be themselves? Why do we have to call them names, or say they have mental disorders?