NBR: WWYD (Family Issues)

ATXmommas

Before the holidays, I posted about some issues I have been having with my SIL.  It's a long, drawn out story that I won't rehash here, but you can read at the link below if you are so inclined:

https://forums.thebump.com/discussion/12497533/sunday-confessions

Here's the update - I flew to MS last Friday and when I arrived, my brother and his four children were at my mom and stepdad's house.  My SIL was not.  Maybe she was working, maybe she wasn't.  I have no idea.  Likely, she just chose not to come.  I had a great time visiting with each of them and adored seeing Ash play with his cousins.  The two oldest nephews came over one other day and then all three boys came over with my brother this past Thursday.  We really had a great time - Ash even crawled into my brother's lap and hung out for a while, which is something special since he never sits still.

Here's the dilemma - when my brother and I had about 60 seconds alone, he told me that he wished SIL would come around.  He said that he thinks she wants to, but is just so stubborn.  I told him that I'm just doing the best I can and I don't really know what to do.  I also told him that I feel really hurt that despite what she might think or feel about me, she chooses not to get to know Ash who has nothing to do with anything.  That was about the extent of the conversation - like I said, it was about 60 seconds.

After he left, he texted me.  He said, "I'm not saying you should or telling you what to do, but if you could send her a message apologizing for hurting her feelings, I think it would give her a reason to back down and save face. [...] I just want things to be better."

So, I'm really struggling.  First, I have no idea what I would even be apologizing for.  She has never told me what I've done to hurt her feelings.  My gut reaction is that I don't want to offer an insincere apology.  Then again, if an insincere apology would help things be better, is it worth it?  But then, I get all crabby and think that I don't want to enable her poor behavior and back down like everyone else seems to do.  

Obviously, I'm having a really difficult time thinking rationally about any of this.  Prior to our visit, I was hoping things would be better, and I suppose they were in that she allowed the kids to visit.  But, I also realized that she did not send us a Christmas card this year either - I saw the card at my mom and dad's house.  Seriously?  

I'm trying to write quickly and I have so many feelings about all this, so I hope this makes sense.  If any of you have any insight to offer, I would appreciate hearing it.  There are not many people IRL that I talk to about this.

Karlamo

I'm sorry things didn't get better. There seems to be a lot of pain in your family over this.
I'll answer your question with a question. What is your ultimate goal in all of this?
If it's to reconcile your relationship with her and bring your families together, then I would apologize to her. Even if I didn't know what I did wrong. I would apologize for hurting her.
It sounds like from what her husband is saying she won't be the bigger person and say sorry. It sounds like her ego is hurt and she feels wronged by you. And if you feel you don't have anything to apologize for, then you're both at a stalemate.
If it were me and my goal was to move past this, then I would call her and tell her I was sorry for hurting her and that I missed having her and her kids in my life and ask for forgiveness.

This is all very easy for me to say since I'm not emotionally involved in this and didn't go through what you did with your last pregnancy.
Good luck.

KH826

First of all, I am so sorry. When adults act like children, it is infuriating and frustrating. I am a firm believer in being open and honest and articulating hurt feelings to work through them. Especially with family. The idea that you ignore someone and give them the cold shoulder or refuse to be around them because of something that upset you but you never vocalized to that person is so foreign to me. People are not mind readers! The idea of "she should know why I am upset..." Just irritates me to no end! Even if you have some idea, but it was never really discussed - to me it is just childish. I don't think you should have to issue a blanket apology when you don't even really know what you are supposed to be sorry for. Especially if you might be apologizing for something you are not and should not be sorry for (I.e. Taking care of yourself after your loss). It's hard to know what to so because you just want things to go back and have everyone be happy and together. One thing I have learned in my adult life though is that you cannot do all the work to sustain relationships yourself. If it isn't this it will be something else. You cannot always be the responsible thoughtful one. It is exhausting and unfair. With that said, I know you just want peace ... That is why crap like this is so hard!

Honestly, if it were me, I would probably text my brother back asking what specifically I should be apologizing for and see what he says. Not to put him in the middle, but he opened the dialogue, and it is his wife... From there I think I would pursue another discussion with SIL directly to try to talk things through. If that effort fails, I would likely accept that for now the relationship is strained and perhaps give it time. It is hard to do and not ideal, but if she is bring unreasonable, it may be your only choice.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I can relate to this sort of dynamic with family/friends, and I know how heart breaking it can feel to just want to fix it. Big hugs to you! You deserve better!

StacyLH24

I agree with everything that @KH826 said. I'm all for only apologizing when you've done something wrong. I used to apologize all the time for things that were not my fault. It took a lot to stop that, but I insist on not taking responsibility for things that I'm not responsible for. @wittyandwaiting phrased it very well in how you could approach the situation by using the words, but not directly apologizing for any of your (very justified) behavior.

If I remember correctly, you have had a conversation with her. Obviously this didn't change anything. At this point, I think that your SIL is being manipulative and immature. I agree with asking your brother what exactly it is that she's looking for an apology about. If it is something legitimate, then surely apologize. If it isn't, then I wouldn't play her game. Unfortunately, it is only likely to continue.

We had a horrible situation with my BIL and an ex (now) of his. C, my SIL and I stood our ground. She treated us, him and other family members terribly and tried to justify it all. I saw through her crap and manipulation and we just stopped participating in anything that involved her. Yes, it was difficult because C's family is very close, but nothing justifies behavior like that and we deserve to be treated better.

During one of my social work classes, a great professor explained the concept of triangulation to us. It makes great sense and I will try to explain it my best. In all drama, there is a triangle. There is the victim, the perpetrator and rescuer. At any given time, we can play any of those roles - sometimes without even realizing it. In order to live a peaceful life, the best thing we can do is to stay off of that triangle. It's hard, especially when others pull us in. If we stay stuck in the triangle, the drama continues. If we remove ourselves from the triangle, we remove ourselves from the drama. I often repeat to myself "stay off the triangle".

You didn't do anything wrong. You took care of yourself in the way that you needed to and she is using that as an opportunity to play the victim. Let her and don't feed into it. Her behavior is not your responsibility. Her behavior is her choice.

singingmua

I also agree with @KH826‌... I don't think anyone should be manipulated into offering an insincere apology for some slight that is apparently known only to the "offended" party.

I totally agree with texting bro back with a "what would I be apologizing for?" text. It would perhaps help you process the situation and maybe understand if this will be something that you will go through in various incarnations through the years, or if this is just a one time situation that can over and done with by having some meaningful dialogue.

It totally sucks to have to go through this kind of drama over the holidays, and I hope that both parties can find some peace really soon. Hugs...

Karlamo

Maybe I should explain better why I made my suggestion.
My 2 aunts didn't speak for 25 years and only reconciled on one of their death beds. Another 2 of my in laws are currently going on 5 years of not speaking to each other.
Anger and resentment have a way of festering over the years. I'm wondering what the future will look like if this isn't resolved. I imagine when you have LO #2, that your SIL might not acknowledge them and that will be hurtful. I could this becoming a perpetual cycle of hurt. You don't have to apologize for something you didn't do wrong. I was thinking of offering an apology for her feeling like you hurt her. Either way this is a awful situation to be in.

valeriegp

I didn't read every reply but I agree that you should text your brother back and ask what you are apologizing for. What I would do after that would depend on the answer to that question.

2MamazInSeattle

Ok, so my first (unhelpful) thought is to ask her name and address, and drop by and give her a slap upside the head. But, barring that as a legitimate solution...

I'm going to aim for an empathetic response first. I used to behave (at times) a bit like your SIL - when I was younger, pre-therapy. I'm not sure what she is trying to get out of this, but I'm guessing it's attention for one, and having a defender (see @StaceyLH824's triangulation comments) to show that your brother loves her more than he loves you. End game: She's trying to muster some sense of self-worth and value. Sad way to go about it, as in my experience it ended in 100% failure every time.

Second, I think she has no effing idea what you went through with Daniel. I will say this and I know I've said this before, but while my experience of losing a baby was awful, TFMR I think would have been 1000x worse. However, before my loss, I don't know that I could've discerned any difference between the two. I don't know if this makes sense to you - but I wonder if, because she's never lost a baby, just like "what'evs, it was still technically the first tri and it happens all the time." Not "OMG you had to make a horrific decision based on the saddest news ever of T18." Again, coming from an empathetic place - I think she just 100%, absolutely, does not get it.

So - all that said - and you knowing I'm 100% on your side here - as much as it pains me (and my serious justice issues) to say it, to meet your end goal I think you will have to step up and be the bigger person. She sounds like she lacks either intelligence and definitely lacks emotional maturity, which makes it harder and also feel more unfair (imho), but at least you can sleep at night knowing you are smart and emotionally mature.

My approach would be to somehow talk to your brother (voice, if you can) and just say "I want to make things right with SIL, but man, some inside info would really help me do it better than I think I could on my own. Can you tell me exactly how I've hurt her so badly?" See if you can get a picture of what her 'reality' is and then (as hard as it is) negotiate for yourself how you can address her reality in a way that resolves things in an *honest* way for you. This very well may require you to completely let go of getting *anything* in return from her. It means you might have to let her 'win' or feel like she is 'right' and you are wrong. I think you can do this and still be genuine if you just navigate things carefully. I don't believe in insincere apologies; but I am betting there will be some aspect of this you will feel ok saying "I'm sorry" for - even if it's just that she completely misinterpreted the way you intended something. Ug, my stomach just turned over for you. BUT, I think to have the harmony that I believe outweighs (for you) the pain/injustice of this tiny moment in time, you will have 'won' in a MUCH bigger way.

I have been in similar situations and it sucks. I'm so sorry. But remember this - at the end of the day, you get to be you (yay!!!) and she has to be her (what a bummer existence). It's definitely resorting to the least common denominator to feel ok with things, but I think in the long run you really will be so glad you took the high road to 'fix' a problem that you didn't create, but that you likely are suffering more because of.

Hugs. I'm so sorry she sucks so bad, but I see you as an uber tough cookie who can make this better for you and Ash alike.

ball.and.chain

You've received great advice, but I was wondering -- and maybe you've already done this -- could you contact her and say, "Have I done something to hurt you?"  That gives her an opportunity to explain what "you" did as she sees it, helps you figure out where you really stand with her, and lets her know you are trying to see things her way without having to apologize when you haven't done anything wrong.  The language puts the "blame" on you versus her (unlike "What are you upset about" which can sound critical) without actually admitting fault.  You are obviously dealing with someone who needs attention and isn't entirely rational, and I think that approach may help.

Now, what happens when she responds...I'm not really sure!

So sorry you're dealing with this.

ATXmommas

Sorry for posting and running yesterday.  I was traveling solo with Ash and was dealing with delayed flights while wrangling a teething toddler.  I did manage to read your responses and have reread everything again this morning while Z is watching Ash.  First, thank you, thank you for your thoughtful responses and support.  I knew my bumpies would have some sound words of advice.  There is so much here that speaks true to me, even though some of it is a hard pill to swallow.

Now, @2MamazinSeattle - her address is 119…. Oh wait, you're right, probably not the best idea!  But tempting!

Here's the thing - my SIL is not a terrible person, but she is Type A to the Nth degree, is extremely stubborn, and can be extremely mean.  She went five years not to speaking to her own sister (I'm not 100% of the reasons, but certainly don't think it was warranted).  I've known my SIL since I was about 13 or so.  She has always been super supportive of my relationship with Z - she planned and threw me a bridal shower in MS mostly on her own.  When we first shared the news about Daniel she was extremely sympathetic.  I know that she was hurt that I didn't let her be there for me after his loss and that I couldn't share in the excitement of her last pregnancy, but I honestly thought we resolved all of those feelings when we spoke in May 2013.  I think her current anger and resentment towards me is still linked to those old feelings - it must be because nothing of any consequence has happened since then.  But it frustrates me that I've already apologized once for hurting her (and I was sorry that she was hurt even though I was not sorry for the way I responded), she accepted the apology, and then gave me the figurative equivalent to a slap in the face.  I feel like these are her issues to work out, not mine.  

BUT - @2MamazinSeattle, you hit the nail on the head with her - she will not admit she was wrong even if she were capable of recognizing that she is, and it will be up to me to attempt to make things right.  I'm not interested in giving her a reason to "save face" as my brother puts it, but I do like the suggestions of apologizing for the strain in our relationship, while not apologizing for anything that I've done.  @KH826 - I agree, it is so bizarre to me that she could possibly expect me to know what to apologize for when she has never told me what it is I did to make her so hurt.  To be honest - while I think it is great advice to ask her what I've done, I think it would be counter-productive.  It would probably be something silly - because, again, I promise you I have done nothing that warrants this behavior from her.

I do want this to be over.  I LOVE and ADORE my niece and nephews and while I'm happy that she didn't stop them from visiting me and Ash this time, it's awkward that she wasn't there and over the years her absence in these situations will become obvious to the kids.  Also, while my brother isn't upset with me, this situation has inevitably put strain on our relationship.  I know he's stuck in an impossible situation and at the end of the day, she's his wife.

I think i need to reach out and I thank you for giving me ideas on how to do that without being insincere.  I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself for making myself vulnerable and setting myself up for attack, as she's done that before.

ATXmommas

Oh, and @2MamazinSeattle, I heart you so much.  While I've healed so much since losing Daniel, his loss still causes me such grief and the way you write about him and our experience makes me feel like you "get it" more than anyone else in my life.  Though I grieve the loss of Daniel and for Mr. Babykins, I'm thankful to have found my way to this community and be amongst people who have supported me in ways that even most people IRL have not been able to.

JGY

I'm sorry I'm so late to respond to this thread.  I read it this weekend, but have a hard time posting while mobile (and single-parenting).

So much good advice from PP above. 

There are so many ways to take the high road and be the bigger person here.  I don't think any of us would suggest blanket or insincere apologies, but I am one of the people who really stresses taking a step back and examining your end goal before approaching this situation.  I know the wording of the following statement is a bit extreme, but hopefully you can understand the point ... the only person who benefits from you standing your ground on principle is you.  And sometimes that's totally enough reason to do it!!  But sometimes it's not.  I do believe you can find a way to "Stand your ground" on your actions related to coping with the loss of Daniel, while allowing that her feelings may have also been hurt in the process (rational and mature or not, they are her feelings).

I think my approach would likely be similar to what's been suggested above.  I would probably send her a note (or call her) letting her know how much you missed her this trip.  You can tell her that you were overjoyed to spend time with her kids, and have them spend time with Ash, but that it wasn't a complete picture without her.  You can tell her that you acknowledge that there are reasons why she wasn't there, and that you are (sincerely) sorry if there is something that you have done to hurt her that would cause her to stay away.  (I mean, you ARE sorry that things are the way they are right now, right?  If and when it comes right down to it, you can be sorry that she has been hurt, while still maintaining that what hurt her was what you absolutely needed to do to protect and care for yourself - those things are not mutually exlusive).  There is a big difference between being sorry for the way a situation has turned out, and being sorry for any particular action that you may have taken that contributed to it.

This whole mess is clearly hurting you.  We can see that you want to be able to enjoy your family intact, and that you will likely feel incomplete until that happens.  You need to remember that you are doing this as much for you and your desires/goals for the future as you are for her and her (ridiculous) hurt feelings.  Keep that in the forefront of your mind.  This is as much about creating the life that you want, as it is about anything else.

And, in the end, if this fails...  Well then @2mamazinseattle will have 1 badass backup right behind her for that personal visit to your SIL.  I don't take kindly to anyone messing with my peeps!

 

firstcomeslove2013

I agree with what the PP have said, we have some good advice givers in this group.

I have been thinking about your situation all weekend and I know that it is hard when there is tension with a family member. My brother is married to a woman that I struggle with a lot and it makes things very stressful so I can understand where you are coming from.

I wanted to pass along a little tool that I used to use in trainings that can be really helpful when conflict gets tough...it might feel a little silly at first but it can really help with getting the conversation started without blaming getting in the way.

It's called "I feel" statements. It allows you to tell your SIL how YOU feel vs what you think she is doing wrong. It is set up like this:
I feel (insert emotion) when you (insert what happened) because (insert why it made you feel that way). Next time could you (insert the action).

Here's an example:

I felt frustrated when you did not come and visit with me and my family when you were in town because it makes me feel like you don't value our relationship. Next time, if something is bothering you could we have a conversation about it before hand?


I hope things get better and please keep us posted!

ATXmommas

Thank you @JGY and @firstcomeslove for your responses.  You have given me some more to think about - I need that.  Thank you!