HTT: Dying with dignity

deedee1017

Yes! @breadandbutter07‌ well put!

huntjul

Some have brought up good points about the system not being misused.

From a veterinary standpoint, where we already do the equivalent of DWD, I can say that the limiting factor that prevents it from being misused is the veterinarian. If a client asks for euthanasia and I feel it's not yet time, I tell them so and don't do it. I see the "check" in the DWD system would have to be at the doctor level IMO.

So for me the potential for misuse comes down to how much do we trust US doctors?

Weljadraak

Brave or not, once you dictate how a person can die, you're making their life about you and not them.  An otherwise sane person should have their life in their hands.  This person has been an active or positive member of society, has lived an otherwise full life and now his or her quality life will be greatly diminished.  You know what?  A lot of those illnesses/advesities @breadandbutter07 listed are not something *everyone* wants to live with.  Hypothetically, if I become a parapalegic or know I will be so demented I can't even recognize my own children and I'll be crying at night for my mommy who has been dead for 40 years, why do I not get that choice?  Who am I living for at that point?  Why MUST I live that way?  To appease you?  I think that is a choice that needs to remain within that person's family and yes, multiple health professionals.

PinkDahLia44

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

@Chrisanna0508‌ , I don't understand why both people who choose to live and fight and people who choose to die and not suffer can't both be considered "brave." And to your point about "a committee somewhere in Washington deciding who has the right to live and who must die," I agree that the govt can't go around handing out death sentences to people, and IF that becomes the issue, you have my full support 100%. However, that's not what we're talking about here. In supporting Death With Dignity, everyone has the right to live.

PinkDahLia44

I also need to point out that I work with doctors everyday and they are just not in the business of letting their patients die. Most of the physicians I see are compassionate people who will only do what is in the best interest of the pt (even when that patient is verbally and emotionally abusive and takes no responsibility for their own health...and I am thinking of a specific patient here that one of our nephrologists just will not give up on...and this guy doesn't pay, either). Most physicians truly just want to help people. There are many points in the process of caring for a terminally ill or "drain on the system" pt where a doctor could easily just let them die, but they don't, partly because there are checks and balances in our healthcare system but mostly because doctors are good people. My point is, if letting a "drain on the system pt" die were going to be an issue, it would already be an issue.

Lee81

PinkDahLia44 said:

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

This is kind of my problem with organized religion in general. How many of their beliefs/tenets can a person disagree with and still call themselves a member of that religion? If I say I am catholic but I'm pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro women in the priesthood, pro dwd, pro birth control access for all, pro death penalty, pro insert all the other things the catholic church is adamantly opposed to- I mean, am I really catholic? What makes me catholic? Because I believe in god the father, son, and holy spirit? Pray to the saints? Is that enough? Aren't there other religions that might be a better fit where I can do those things and not have to qualify myself with "I'm catholic, but" all the time? (To be fair, I know that Roman Catholic is not the only flavor of catholic, but that's the one everyone thinks of and I'd bet that most people who call themselves Catholic go to a Roman Catholic church. There are other branches of Catholicism that are much more liberal.)

sweettooth87

Lee81 said:

PinkDahLia44 said:

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

This is kind of my problem with organized religion in general. How many of their beliefs/tenets can a person disagree with and still call themselves a member of that religion? If I say I am catholic but I'm pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro women in the priesthood, pro dwd, pro birth control access for all, pro death penalty, pro insert all the other things the catholic church is adamantly opposed to- I mean, am I really catholic? What makes me catholic? Because I believe in god the father, son, and holy spirit? Pray to the saints? Is that enough? Aren't there other religions that might be a better fit where I can do those things and not have to qualify myself with "I'm catholic, but" all the time? (To be fair, I know that Roman Catholic is not the only flavor of catholic, but that's the one everyone thinks of and I'd bet that most people who call themselves Catholic go to a Roman Catholic church. There are other branches of Catholicism that are much more liberal.)

I agree, but I figure it's each individuals choice on regards to what they decide is too many qualifications. I'm atheist, but was raised Catholic. Before I came to the conclusion that I was atheist, I decided I wasn't Catholic because I didn't agree with the no birth control rules, didn't believe that communion WAS the blood/body of Jesus (as opposed to a symbol like protestants teach), believed in gay marriage, etc. I figured I fit better into the 'non denominational' category. FF a few years and I realized I was atheist and non of it mattered any more anyway, lol.

Lee81

The argument that dwd could eventually lead to society expecting people to choose death reminds me of the argument from the old anti women's suffrage flyer that was posted on fb the other day. We shouldn't let women vote because we are risking the stability we have now for possible evil that could result. So since there is a *possibility* that society will change so much that we start handing out dwd drugs to anyone and everyone, we should condemn countless people to weeks/months/years of unimaginable suffering that they would rather avoid?

huntjul

Lee81 said:

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

This is kind of my problem with organized religion in general. How many of their beliefs/tenets can a person disagree with and still call themselves a member of that religion? If I say I am catholic but I'm pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro women in the priesthood, pro dwd, pro birth control access for all, pro death penalty, pro insert all the other things the catholic church is adamantly opposed to- I mean, am I really catholic? What makes me catholic? Because I believe in god the father, son, and holy spirit? Pray to the saints? Is that enough? Aren't there other religions that might be a better fit where I can do those things and not have to qualify myself with "I'm catholic, but" all the time? (To be fair, I know that Roman Catholic is not the only flavor of catholic, but that's the one everyone thinks of and I'd bet that most people who call themselves Catholic go to a Roman Catholic church. There are other branches of Catholicism that are much more liberal.)

That can be confusing. I guess I would say that you should ask each church what their core beliefs are. If you aren't in line with those core beliefs, then you probably should look to another religion or denomination. I do think it's possible to have differing opinions on non-core beliefs and still belong to a religion.

For example, a non-denominational church's core beliefs could be something like "we believe that God loves us so much that he sent his only son to die on the cross and conquer death to forgive our sins, so that we can be with Him forever". A Catholic church would have more quantity of core beliefs IMO, but a priest could easily tell you them.

An example of a non-core belief in some non-denominational Christian churches is the concept of infant vs adult baptism. The way my last church dealt with it was they asked you if you wanted to do a baptism or a baby dedication ("we promise to bring this child up knowing God to the extent that we are able" etc). So the church actually recognized it as an area where beliefs could legitimately differ.

PinkDahLia44

Lee81 said:

PinkDahLia44 said:

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

This is kind of my problem with organized religion in general. How many of their beliefs/tenets can a person disagree with and still call themselves a member of that religion? If I say I am catholic but I'm pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro women in the priesthood, pro dwd, pro birth control access for all, pro death penalty, pro insert all the other things the catholic church is adamantly opposed to- I mean, am I really catholic? What makes me catholic? Because I believe in god the father, son, and holy spirit? Pray to the saints? Is that enough? Aren't there other religions that might be a better fit where I can do those things and not have to qualify myself with "I'm catholic, but" all the time? (To be fair, I know that Roman Catholic is not the only flavor of catholic, but that's the one everyone thinks of and I'd bet that most people who call themselves Catholic go to a Roman Catholic church. There are other branches of Catholicism that are much more liberal.)

I don't necessarily disagree, but if I want to be a Christian, which religion do I choose which is okay with all of these things? The closest I can think of is Unitarian, and from visiting my mom's Unitarian church, I gather that they are more spiritual than strictly Christian.

PinkDahLia44

@baconface‌ , I have not heard about this church, but to be fair I live in the conservative south. I would also be hard pressed to convince my "raised in a catholic school, says the rosary during advent" husband to raise our kids as non-Catholics. Luckily, my influence on him has been strong enough that he is not a bigoted person and I was able to easily convince him to switch churches when the homosexual hate talk became too much for us in our old church.

Lee81

PinkDahLia44 said:

Lee81 said:

PinkDahLia44 said:

@Lee81‌ , I am a cafeteria catholic as well, and I have to say (to your point about how many other religions have this "problem") I wish more people would make their own decisions on what is okay and what is not okay without just blindly following what the church has told them. And I have to stop there on this point or I could go on and on.

This is kind of my problem with organized religion in general. How many of their beliefs/tenets can a person disagree with and still call themselves a member of that religion? If I say I am catholic but I'm pro-choice, pro marriage equality, pro women in the priesthood, pro dwd, pro birth control access for all, pro death penalty, pro insert all the other things the catholic church is adamantly opposed to- I mean, am I really catholic? What makes me catholic? Because I believe in god the father, son, and holy spirit? Pray to the saints? Is that enough? Aren't there other religions that might be a better fit where I can do those things and not have to qualify myself with "I'm catholic, but" all the time? (To be fair, I know that Roman Catholic is not the only flavor of catholic, but that's the one everyone thinks of and I'd bet that most people who call themselves Catholic go to a Roman Catholic church. There are other branches of Catholicism that are much more liberal.)

I don't necessarily disagree, but if I want to be a Christian, which religion do I choose which is okay with all of these things? The closest I can think of is Unitarian, and from visiting my mom's Unitarian church, I gather that they are more spiritual than strictly Christian.

I guess my post was more of a philosophical question that I ask myself. I was raised Roman Catholic but I disagree with so many of the churches stances on the issues mentioned above that I just couldn't continue attending their services and making an offering to an organization that very well may be using those funds to contribute to and promote causes I find objectionable. I happened into an Ecumenical Catholic Church and it is much better fit for me. Still not perfect, but not because of anything I am morally opposed to. I was actually quite surprised to learn how many denominations are out there that are within my comfort zone of Christian churches but much more liberal leaning than the Church of Rome.

Lee81

@baconface‌ I don't take your post as a slam. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. I was in the middle of saying it myself when you posted this #braintwinzzzz

But i do hope @PinkDahLia44‌ doesn't take any offense. I know exactly where she is coming from and have thought many of the same things myself. #otherbraintwin??

stephl3055

PinkDahLia44 said:

@baconface‌ , I have not heard about this church, but to be fair I live in the conservative south. I would also be hard pressed to convince my "raised in a catholic school, says the rosary during advent" husband to raise our kids as non-Catholics. Luckily, my influence on him has been strong enough that he is not a bigoted person and I was able to easily convince him to switch churches when the homosexual hate talk became too much for us in our old church.

My husband is kind of this way.  His family is Catholic (well, I am too technically), and one time his grandfather received communion from PJPII.  ZOMG, it's all anyone ever talks about and everyone has a picture of the grandfather receiving communion in their house.  But it's just so ingrained in their family that they are Catholic and will always be.  Part of his culture is a bit intertwined with Catholicism, so that just adds to him feeling loyal to the Church.  So even though DH and I don't agree with a lot of what the Church teaches, I think he feels stuck.  Although I am definitely more liberal than he is.

PinkDahLia44

@baconface, @lee81, I am absolutely not offended. Honestly, I'm not a very good church-goer as it is, and this discussion is not really making me want to go any more. After my miscarriage, I lost all of my faith, and it still hasn't returned completely, but I'm working on it. I'm so grateful for the family I have, so that helps. When it comes to Catholic Church, I mainly love the structured services. But I gotta say, I'm not hating our newest pope.

@stephl3055‌ , I totally get you. I married into an Italian family from New Jersey, so...

Jalee85

sweettooth87 said:

I agree, but I figure it's each individuals choice on regards to what they decide is too many qualifications. I'm atheist, but was raised Catholic. Before I came to the conclusion that I was atheist, I decided I wasn't Catholic because I didn't agree with the no birth control rules, didn't believe that communion WAS the blood/body of Jesus (as opposed to a symbol like protestants teach), believed in gay marriage, etc. I figured I fit better into the 'non denominational' category. FF a few years and I realized I was atheist and non of it mattered any more anyway, lol.

@sweettooth87‌

I'm pretty much in the same boat, but I've realized I'm agnostic not an atheist. I am very spiritual but could never get on board with the Catholic teachings. I even got married Catholic and baptized Delaney. I don't regret these decisions, but recent political events have really made me truly become aware of my true feelings on religion. I used to say I was a non-practicing Catholic but at this point even saying non-practicing just doesn't feel right. I believe in a soul and feel that their is a universal energy that we are all apart of. I have no idea if there is a god or not. All I know is after this last group of measures that tried to get passed in my very Republican Christian Conservative State I have no plans of me or Delaney being around a church or anything of the sort. I think I can teach her good values without the fear of going to "Hell". Somehow I feel so much freerer now than trying to be a cafeteria catholic, because let's be honest the Catholic Church doesn't want that.

Lee81

@baconface‌

Jalee85 said:

Somehow I feel so much freerer now than trying to be a cafeteria catholic, because let's be honest the Catholic Church doesn't want that.

Truth. That's not at all what the church wants. I got the term cafeteria catholic from the nuns at my high school whenever someone disagreed with the catholic stance on something. "Now, now. You can't be a cafeterias catholic. You are catholic so your stance on issues is what we're tell you it is". Okay, sure Sisters. You keep telling yourself that.

Jalee85

Lee81 said:

@baconface‌

Jalee85 said:

Somehow I feel so much freerer now than trying to be a cafeteria catholic, because let's be honest the Catholic Church doesn't want that.

Truth. That's not at all what the church wants. I got the term cafeteria catholic from the nuns at my high school whenever someone disagreed with the catholic stance on something. "Now, now. You can't be a cafeterias catholic. You are catholic so your stance on issues is what we're tell you it is". Okay, sure Sisters. You keep telling yourself that.

That's the thing the Catholic Church wants you to 100% follow their religion. I was on BC for a health issue for awhile. While at our marriage retreat they said that even for medical purposes they couldn't condone the use of birth control, because we have to trust in God's plan. Then I said so it's okay if I die instead of using b/c because it was god's plan. They quickly moved off the subject.

They also believe that animals have no souls, and only respond to pain stimulus.

Also that spirits either go to heaven or hell and they don't linger. I so strongly disagree with this. Ever ghost is not a demon.

Then my biggest issue is that the bible was written by God, but the truth is the bible was altered a long long time ago and the bible is no where near whole anymore.

Anyways I think they would prefer to lose members then have people pick and choose what they want. I think most Catholics do chose. I tried for awhile, but like PP said if you can't get in-line with the core beliefs it's time to move on, so that's what I did.


The best was from the priest I disliked so much. During Delaney's baptism we did church before. A lot of people like to leave after communion, but he wanted to show a preview of some religious movie. Anyways like 15 people walked out and as they were walking out. He compared them to Judas as a Catholic that is quite the insult! Luckily that priest finally went elsewhere, but it really made me think.

sooner1981

Check out the Episcopal Church! Very traditional services that feel almost identical to catholic services (when I used to go to church with catholic friends after sleepovers, I would know most of the prayers, hymns, call and responses, etc.), same history as Catholic Church until we split away. But we have gay bishops, we have married priests, we are fine with birth control, don't believe in praying to saints or virgin mary--just pray directly to God, believe the wine and bread are symbolic (powerful symbols--but no transubstantiation), we allow anyone who has been baptized into the Christian faith to receive communion every Sunday, etc.

Try a service--you might really like it. Growing up, we used to say we were "half the catholic and twice the fun!" Silly expression--but I am pretty liberal, and feel like I can be myself and vote the way I do/campaign for my favorite politicians and still be an accepted member of the church, which is very important to me!

Lee81

Lee81 said:

@baconface‌

Jalee85 said:

Somehow I feel so much freerer now than trying to be a cafeteria catholic, because let's be honest the Catholic Church doesn't want that.

Truth. That's not at all what the church wants. I got the term cafeteria catholic from the nuns at my high school whenever someone disagreed with the catholic stance on something. "Now, now. You can't be a cafeterias catholic. You are catholic so your stance on issues is what we're tell you it is". Okay, sure Sisters. You keep telling yourself that.

I totally just realized that I paged you by accident in this post @baconface. I assume you were all like wtf does she need me to see this post for?

Lee81

Truth, @baconface‌! I think ill just start calling you out in all my posts :x

edaire

Catholic here. I come from a very devout family, went to catholic school for 13 yrs, and was married in the Catholic Church. I love my faith, but these are issues that I have a hard time with. I watched the documentary How to Die in Oregon months ago and my heart supports it. I couldn't imagine being put in that situation. I know what the church teaches about it as well as homosexuality. In reality I have no issue with homosexuals getting married and adopting children. I think it's beautiful, but I know my church teaches something different. I've learned to separate church and state. The individual ultimately has to answer to their actions and I am in no position (nor would I want to be) to judge. For my own life I will follow the teachings of my church and pray that I never have to be put in these situations.