Can we discuss Red Shirting?

trizzie

Hav=Fath said:

 

Hav=Fath said:

I never realized that some people red shirted so they didn't have a child graduating high school when they were 17, I thought it was only to prevent their young 5 year old not in K. 

aren't those the same thing?  

To not want a young 5 year old in kindergarten is one thing, to think ahead and worry about having a 17 year old graduating versus an 18 year old just seems odd.

My friends haven't even mentioned their kid being young for kinder. It is all about graduating young to them.

Chapter79

trizzie said:

juliane2004 said:

There are 7 year olds in kindergarten? :-O

Yep. There is a kid on my son's basketball team - in Kinder and turning 7 in April. My son is tall for his age and this kid towers over him.

ETA: And our cut off is 9/1.

Wow. That's crazy to me, considering my DD is 7 and in 2nd grade (almost 8).  I can't IMAGINE her in grade K now... both education wise and maturity wise.   The difference between a 5 year old and a 7 is actually quite large, IMO.  I didn't know this until I had my own and see her at 7, verses the little ones in grade K.   They aren't remotely anywhere close to being on the same "level".

My DD did have a 4 year old in her grade K class, but there was only 1.  It did kinda show. She got into trouble a lot, she couldn't sit still like the others, her attention span wasn't quite the same as the slightly older kids.  But it showed the most just in grade K.  She was also in her first grade class and at that point it sorta "leveled" out, if that makes sense.

penguingrrl

If we lived in an area where the school year starts in early or mid August instead of after Labor Day my daughter would have started K at age 4 and turned 5 quickly.

And NYC (again, with the zero tolerance policy for redshirting) has a cut off of Dec 31. They do it so anyone born in the 2007 calendar year is currently in 1st grade, 2008 calendar year is currently in K, next year's K class will be anyone born in 2009. Somehow all those 4.5 year olds survive. While I do think that cutoff is too young, I think requiring kids to be 5 by April is worse.

wellfleet04

lexusolsen said:

trizzie said:

juliane2004 said:

There are 7 year olds in kindergarten? :-O

Yep. There is a kid on my son's basketball team - in Kinder and turning 7 in April. My son is tall for his age and this kid towers over him.

ETA: And our cut off is 9/1.

Yup.  When you redshirt a May or earlier birthday kid, they turn 7 in kindergarten.  And they start kindergarten at nearly 6.5 alongside kids who just turned 5.

I will never be convinced by the "not ready for kindergarten" maturity argument.  It's a luxury choice that only parents who can afford a third year of private preschool or whose kids don't have an IEP can make.  Wealthy kids are not somehow magically less mature.  Kids (like my May birthday kid) who have IEPs for documented, diagnosed delays are not somehow better suited for kindergarten, but the school will almost NEVER recommend redshirting.  If a normal, average 5 year old cannot keep up with the demands of what is being asked in kindergarten, the problem is with the curriculum, not the 5 year old being 5.

I don't think this is a problem, I think the problem is a four year old in school because his/her parents don't want to pay for or can't afford another year of preschool or daycare. I don't care how smart your kid is, a four year kid does not belong in kindergarten. Just like your 13 year old doesn't belong in high school and your 17 year old doesn't belong in college.

At least here (MA) with a 9/1 cut off, no kid is 4 when they start school, or if they are they are 4 for a couple of days in late August.  The vast majority of kids are 5 on the first day of school or within a week of it.  And then the redshirted kids are 6-6.5 years old.  So the teacher has to teach a class that contains newly 5s (who are age-appropriate) and 6.5 year olds, instead of a class that contains newly 5s to almost 6 year olds if everyone followed the cut off.  It's a big difference, and puts the young 5s--many of whom are from families who cannot afford to redshirt or are on IEPs and are now allowed by the district to redshirt--at a even further disadvantage.  OF COURSE your 6.5 year old looks more "ready" for kindergarten--he's older than everyone else! I can see it for August and maybe July birthdays, but when it starts getting into May and beyond I just think that's ridiculous and unfair.

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

wellfleet04 said:

lexusolsen said:

trizzie said:

juliane2004 said:

There are 7 year olds in kindergarten? :-O

Yep. There is a kid on my son's basketball team - in Kinder and turning 7 in April. My son is tall for his age and this kid towers over him.

ETA: And our cut off is 9/1.

Yup.  When you redshirt a May or earlier birthday kid, they turn 7 in kindergarten.  And they start kindergarten at nearly 6.5 alongside kids who just turned 5.

I will never be convinced by the "not ready for kindergarten" maturity argument.  It's a luxury choice that only parents who can afford a third year of private preschool or whose kids don't have an IEP can make.  Wealthy kids are not somehow magically less mature.  Kids (like my May birthday kid) who have IEPs for documented, diagnosed delays are not somehow better suited for kindergarten, but the school will almost NEVER recommend redshirting.  If a normal, average 5 year old cannot keep up with the demands of what is being asked in kindergarten, the problem is with the curriculum, not the 5 year old being 5.

I don't think this is a problem, I think the problem is a four year old in school because his/her parents don't want to pay for or can't afford another year of preschool or daycare. I don't care how smart your kid is, a four year kid does not belong in kindergarten. Just like your 13 year old doesn't belong in high school and your 17 year old doesn't belong in college.

At least here (MA) with a 9/1 cut off, no kid is 4 when they start school, or if they are they are 4 for a couple of days in late August.  The vast majority of kids are 5 on the first day of school or within a week of it.  And then the redshirted kids are 6-6.5 years old.  So the teacher has to teach a class that contains newly 5s (who are age-appropriate) and 6.5 year olds, instead of a class that contains newly 5s to almost 6 year olds if everyone followed the cut off.  It's a big difference, and puts the young 5s--many of whom are from families who cannot afford to redshirt or are on IEPs and are now allowed by the district to redshirt--at a even further disadvantage.  OF COURSE your 6.5 year old looks more "ready" for kindergarten--he's older than everyone else! I can see it for August and maybe July birthdays, but when it starts getting into May and beyond I just think that's ridiculous and unfair.

Ok, I have stayed pretty quiet, but why is newly 5 age appropriate? Have you seen the K curriculum?  My DS1 turned 5 on 9/17 and he started "on time". The struggles he had in K were hard to watch but he was average.  He got the work done. The curriculum that is pushed on a K student is not easily learned by all young 5's.  I wish I was smart enough then to redshirt.

And then what do you do in a situation where they clearly are NOT ready?

Currently DS2 is in PreK at the public school. He will actually turn 5 in June. You would think, this kid would be ready.  Guess what?  he is having a very hard time even writing his name. He also is not successful at recognizing letters, let alone trying to pair the sounds of the letters.  He is expected to "read" in K. They already sent home a list of sight words.  He can't even remember what a letter looks like.  He also is in his 2nd year of preschool. 

I have no doubt he will get it.  He will probably be retained in PreK, even if it starts to click in the coming months, there is no way he will have all his letters, sounds and the sight words by September. Why would I want to set my kid up to fail? 

The curriculum is supposed to be designed for newly 5 year olds. People have redshirted so much that it's becoming less age appropriate, but K was always supposed to be for kids that age. 

And some newly 5 year olds struggle, but others do perfectly fine. My daughter started K at newly 5 (8/30 birthday) and excelled. If she hadn't I would have been grateful for having her in the public school system so that they could determine why she wasn't succeeding and make a plan to help her rather than an extra year in private PreK where the fact that she wasn't ready wasn't being really addressed.

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

But it's supposed to be designed for every young 5 year old. It should be frustratingly easy for an older kid. Except that so many people were holding kids back that now it's taking on 1st grade level difficulty so now kids who should be age appropriate no longer are.

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

penguingrrl

LalaMama81 said:

britt1430 said:

I started college at 17, nbd.

There can be legal issues for students living on campus. They are underage and living away from their parents, etc. I don't know how often it's become an issue, but the potential is there. 

A friend of mine in college had a mid-January birthday and started at 17. Her parents had to sign all kinds of waivers for her first semester so that the school wouldn't be held responsible for her as a minor student. She was also one of the most mature and hard working students I knew!

She started school in NYC and tested in since she was 2 weeks after the cut off, then moved to NJ where she was the youngest by a lot lol! In her case it worked out beautifully.

wellfleet04

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

Same.  And yes, I've seen the curriculum.  My May birthday daughter is in first grade this year. She entered kindergarten on an IEP. She and all of her classmates were able to handle it just fine, albeit at different levels.  Some kids were reading when the year started, some still were not at the end of the year (which is fine--reading is not expected in kindergarten here.  Reading intervention starts in first grade for kids who don't pick it up in kinder).  I think if a majority of age-appropriate kids--and yes, newly 5 is age appropriate according to the cut off that the district is supposed to be enforcing--are struggling, then the issue is with the curriculum, not with 5 year olds being in kindergarten.  And at least around here (a wealthy community with competitive parents) the kids who are being redshirted are not struggling.  The reasoning is always a vague "he's not ready" or "immature."  True delays/struggles can be addressed by supports in the school system, not by another year of play based preschool.  

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

Unbelievable!  You would rather see kids fail than wait a year to succeed? 

And you honestly think the preschool teachers in public school are not pressured to push their kids ahead to K?  Their job is to produce kids that are ready for K. that is their entire job.  What would be their motivation to retain a student?   

My ds' teacher is only looking out for him.  

 

I'd rather see a learning disability properly diagnosed than pushed off. And I'd rather see a K curriculum that's designed for newly 5 year olds, as it should be based on cut off dates.

kcisthebombdotcom

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

Private preschool teachers are just as qualified as public ones. i don't disagree that kids should be evaluated that struggle academically in preschool to weed out a late bloomer vs a learning disability so the appropriate supports can be provided to ensure success. I'm just not sure i follow the benefit to the child by pushing them to keep up with material they've proven they're not ready to keep up with. to me all it seems to do is make their first experience in school a negative one.

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

Unbelievable!  You would rather see kids fail than wait a year to succeed? 

And you honestly think the preschool teachers in public school are not pressured to push their kids ahead to K?  Their job is to produce kids that are ready for K. that is their entire job.  What would be their motivation to retain a student?   

My ds' teacher is only looking out for him.  

 

I'd rather see a learning disability properly diagnosed than pushed off. And I'd rather see a K curriculum that's designed for newly 5 year olds, as it should be based on cut off dates.

Who said anything about a learning disability? Having a child whose is not interested in letters is not a disability, its immaturity.  

The curriculum is what it is, if your young 5 yo can handle it? great! If not, you should be thinking about retaining....not fighting to have them start and then be behind and playing catch up. 

I get what you are saying about the parents making a blanket decision without the need, and I have zero issues with proper screening being held if they want to redshirt. Make them prove they are not ready. But to have a hard deadline to start K without any accommodations, is asking for trouble.  

Bottom line, if your child is truly ready for K, having some 6 yos in class are not going to affect her ability to learn.  Hey, maybe she can go into remedial reading if she is struggling.   

 

I can see where a select few would not be ready, but I again think this is a failing of the system and what they are expecting of 5 year olds. I guess in some ways I'm comparing it to when I was a kid and people were fighting to get their kid in early. The pendulum has swung so people are holding kids back. How can a 5.5 year old today not be capable of what was expected of a 4.5 year old 25 years ago? Why has the curriculum changed so drastically that it no longer allows for children who meet the cut off to be ready?

I think it's so common that it's getting a bad rep because people aren't only doing it in cases where it's really truly necessary for a kid whose birthday is right near the cut off. Instead you see cases like Hizzo's district where they discourage kids whose birthdays are months from the cut off from starting then are setting up a curriculum that is based on kids starting no younger than 5.5.  Again, this is putting already disadvantaged children whose parents simply don't have the luxury to hold them a year at a huge disadvantage.

I say that as someone whose mother should have red shirted my brother (whose birthday is October 29, so he was 4 when he started K) but she couldn't afford to in a district where most did by that point (1990). He spent his life being compared to kids 16-17 months older than him (not 12 months, which is normal) and really struggled. I think it's a soapbox issue because my brother, who started on time, ended up having serious issues partly due to the number of kids in his grade who were so so much older than him.

juliane2004

auroraloo said:

i haven't read a single response in this thread.

redshirting is over done. there are certainly cases where it may be necessary, but many many parents over-redshirt just because. my kids will start on time as long as there are no other issues which means DS will be 5 years and 2 weeks old and DD will be 12 days shy of being 6.

12 days shy of 6 or 5? @auroraloo

penguingrrl

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

penguingrrl said:

cjcouple said:

cjcouple said:

@penguingrrl I am not arguing that some kids can handle the curriculum fine and some even excel.  but to assume the curriculum is right for every young 5 is just putting blinders on. 

 

Also to be frank, would you want my DS in your DD class holding the entire class back because the teacher needs to spend so much time on him to try and catch him up?

I would be fine with him being in her class. I'm a fan of mixed age and mixed ability classrooms. I guess because around here preschools are generally not part of the public system I'm suspicious of them encouraging holding kids back. I also don't see preschools with the support to differentiate a slow learner from a child who has academic struggles that would be best suited for extra supports where the public schools in my area are quick to recognize issues and provide supports.

Unbelievable!  You would rather see kids fail than wait a year to succeed? 

And you honestly think the preschool teachers in public school are not pressured to push their kids ahead to K?  Their job is to produce kids that are ready for K. that is their entire job.  What would be their motivation to retain a student?   

My ds' teacher is only looking out for him.  

 

I'd rather see a learning disability properly diagnosed than pushed off. And I'd rather see a K curriculum that's designed for newly 5 year olds, as it should be based on cut off dates.

Who said anything about a learning disability? Having a child whose is not interested in letters is not a disability, its immaturity.  

The curriculum is what it is, if your young 5 yo can handle it? great! If not, you should be thinking about retaining....not fighting to have them start and then be behind and playing catch up. 

I get what you are saying about the parents making a blanket decision without the need, and I have zero issues with proper screening being held if they want to redshirt. Make them prove they are not ready. But to have a hard deadline to start K without any accommodations, is asking for trouble.  

Bottom line, if your child is truly ready for K, having some 6 yos in class are not going to affect her ability to learn.  Hey, maybe she can go into remedial reading if she is struggling.   

 

I can see where a select few would not be ready, but I again think this is a failing of the system and what they are expecting of 5 year olds. I guess in some ways I'm comparing it to when I was a kid and people were fighting to get their kid in early. The pendulum has swung so people are holding kids back. How can a 5.5 year old today not be capable of what was expected of a 4.5 year old 25 years ago? Why has the curriculum changed so drastically that it no longer allows for children who meet the cut off to be ready?

I think it's so common that it's getting a bad rep because people aren't only doing it in cases where it's really truly necessary for a kid whose birthday is right near the cut off. Instead you see cases like Hizzo's district where they discourage kids whose birthdays are months from the cut off from starting then are setting up a curriculum that is based on kids starting no younger than 5.5.  Again, this is putting already disadvantaged children whose parents simply don't have the luxury to hold them a year at a huge disadvantage.

I say that as someone whose mother should have red shirted my brother (whose birthday is October 29, so he was 4 when he started K) but she couldn't afford to in a district where most did by that point (1990). He spent his life being compared to kids 16-17 months older than him (not 12 months, which is normal) and really struggled. I think it's a soapbox issue because my brother, who started on time, ended up having serious issues partly due to the number of kids in his grade who were so so much older than him.

But the curriculum change has nothing to do with age/cutoff.....it has to do with the US trying to compete with other countries. The age has moved because the curriculum became more difficult. 

If the K curriculum was what I had, my DS would go to K. He would learn his letters, numbers and colors "in" K.  Not be expected to know them, sight words and begin to read,  comprehend and reflect with math....not numbers, addition.  

Your problem doesn't seem to be with red-shirting but with CCS.

That's a very good point. I actually love the idea of a common set of standards as someone who is likely going to be moving to another state this year and doesn't want her kids to end up way ahead or way behind when we go.  But I think there's a lot of failure in how it's done. I haaaate how math is being taught. Hate it. As does my husband who works in a strongly math-based job. It's a system that will make them fast on standardized tests but do them no favors as far as understanding the concepts and material.

But then I'm not all that concerned about how we look globally. Mostly because many countries find all sorts of ways to fudge their scores so they look better. China only reports from one area and it's basically the equivalent of the US only reporting the scores of those who are in elite Manhattan private schools, which we don't do.

juliane2004

 

auroraloo said:

juliane2004 said:

i haven't read a single response in this thread.

redshirting is over done. there are certainly cases where it may be necessary, but many many parents over-redshirt just because. my kids will start on time as long as there are no other issues which means DS will be 5 years and 2 weeks old and DD will be 12 days shy of being 6.

12 days shy of 6 or 5? @auroraloo

6. Our cutoff is September 1. So she will be 4 on September 1st, then turn 5 on the 12th. So she will have to wait a year, when she'll be 5 on the first and turn 6 on the 12th.

Does that bug you at all? That the kids are 1 year apart in age, but will be 2 years apart in school? @auroraloo

jensriot

britt1430 said:

I started college at 17, nbd.

Me too. I was fine. Well, I was until I turned 20. Then I let loose.

juliane2004

auroraloo said:

@julianne2004 not really? Only that I'll have a kid in my house for an extra year

lol

lexusolsen

JenS2203 said:

britt1430 said:

I started college at 17, nbd.

Me too. I was fine. Well, I was until I turned 20. Then I let loose.

There are all sorts of legal issues with kids who are too young for college and too old for high school? Do you really want your 17 year old daughter in classes with and or dating her 19 year old peer?

penguingrrl

I wouldn't worry about the age differences in HS or college. I was in a special theater program in HS and all 4 grades were in class together, so at 14 there were several 18 year olds in my class. Never thought twice about it.