Post-nump agreement for SAHM?

Jmom10

https://m.today.com/moms/why-moms-should-get-postnup-quitting-their-jobs-stay-home-2D11763106

Can't say I'll be signing one. What about you??

codec

This sounds redonk.

Andreabills

Yeaaaah, no! That looks completely ridiculous!

PerkyErky

I can see where he is coming from but for normal folks I think prenups and now postnups are ridiculous. Also, this why there is alimony and child support (for either women or men depending on the family dynamic). Definitely not my cup of tea.

totalbabydoll4ever

I have a prenup. My DH came into our marriage with a lot more than me, in terms of assets and debt. We still keep our money separate for the most part, pay the bills we agreed on and have no issues in terms of money. It has worked for us. We are normal and make normal amounts of money.  

KariB509

I don't think I would do this myself but I can see why some people would do it and why it's suggested. I really don't think it's that ridiculous.

karacakes98

Seriously? No. Just no.

dedeyoba

Having practiced family law I have listened to many, many men argue that their wife "chose" to quit her job and just stay at home as though she was on vacation while being a SAHM. Many men also argue that the mom's income should be based on her past wages even though as noted you can't just jump back into the workforce and missed a large portion of your career.

The reality is stay at home moms often get screwed in a divorce..

crystaljoanna

Agreed. And when you are adding kids into the mix, even with a pre or post nup, the divorce is going to get messy. There might be some benefit but the divorce process will still be ugly.

Kewii

Yeah, add me to the I don't think this is crazy camp.  I'm a firm believer that you don't marry the person you divorce sentiment.  Which is why divorces get ugly so often.

I also think it's important to remember that this isn't just to protect the SAHM, it's also to help protect the kids.

babylimas

I also practice family law and think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, many very happy marriages don't last. You may think you would be kind and rational during the divorce, but I rarely see that happen. The parents are often angry and the last thing the higher income spouse wants to do is shell out huge checks for child support. The SAHP really needs to protect him/ herself.

saisongbird

We have a post-nup, but specifically in terms of my inheritance/money that was put down on our house.  Everything else as of now is on the table.  I don't think it's a bad idea but I also don't think it's for everyone.

kelley72

I sure as hell wish I had for my first marriage.  I left my job/not really a career granted but left work for 9 years, when I went back to work seven years ago I was making LESS than I was prior to leaving the working force... and had no spouse's income bc of the divorce.  Divorce is ugly, and VERY expensive especially to the children..

I am unable to be a SAHM this go round, I sure wish we could swing it financially. 

kelley72

karacakes98 said:

Seriously? No. Just no.

yes seriously... do you have any experience with divorce?  Just curious bc your unwillingness to even entertain the idea suggests to me that you do not

WoodShopGirl

I like the idea of the post-nup for SAHM even though I will never be staying at home.

MH and I have a prenup and I consider us "normal".  We mainly did it because he already owned our home when we were married.  But then we have put some money into reno's so I get equity of that renovation costs.

Ours is also a little more complicated because we are partners in business together.  I own 51% and he owns 49% (for minority purposes).

Of course, I believe we have a strong marriage and have never considered divorce in the 5 years we have been married, but divorce is not the time to be making monetary decisions.  It is always messy.

kelley72

I just want to say my first husband and I decided I would not pursue a master's degree bc I would be staying home and the investment of the degree would not be financially advantageous... fast forward 12 years and an outcome neither of us set off to achieve occured.  Divorce, four children, me out of the workforce for 9 years = a very difficult time financially for me and therefore for my children.  The more I think about it the better the postnup sounds...

VanessaBee

As the current payee of alimony, I think this is a totally reasonable idea. Even though my ex and I had a REALLY tame, friendly divorce and I was happy to pay him alimony (he'd attempted to start his own business while we were married. It ultimately failed, but I supported the effort and realized he needed financial support to go back to school or have time to find a job), I know it easily could've been an all-around hellacious experience.

babylimas

Pre-nuptial agreements really aren't common in the US, especially when there are no assets at the time of marriage. In fact, they weren't really allowed most places until fairly recently. It's based on the cultural and religious underpinnings in the US. The pre-nups were thought to be an encouragement for divorce and very strict limitations were placed on them. They are becoming more common, but I still never see them unless there are significant assets and usually prior marriages. 

Plus they are still heavily contested even when signed, so it takes away a lot of the incentive. In my state, you would still be able to modify any provisions regarding child support and there are strict rules about limiting spousal support. They take a lot of skill in drafting and very often get overturned. 

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babylimas

@bearsbearsbears - the context of the divorce mediation is really important. Half of the counties in my state have required mediation and that is just a PITA. If the parties aren't willing to work together, it's not going to work. If the parties are willing to go to mediation and willing to work it out, it is a much better way to go than the adversarial court system.

My state is pretty old-fashioned in the divorce process and doesn't want to do anything to "encourage" divorce. To that end it is a difficult system to navigate and you are pretty much required to have an attorney. This lends to a more adversarial system, which is almost always detrimental to any children involved. It's rare that the parties going through a divorce can think rationally about it. Both sides are hurt and wronged in some way, and the motivations and goals get really skewed. So it may be best for the kids to go 50/50 to the parents, but neither parent is going to admit that. They get focused on things about which is better at parenting (i.e. daddy forgets to brush teeth), not realizing that putting their kids through the fight is probably more harmful than just working together. Granted, most wouldn't be able to work together if they tried. As an outsider assessing the situation, and since I'm obligated to represent only my client's interests, it can be tough. 

There are initiatives in my state to pursue other options, like a program that essentially forces parents into a therapy program that arbitrates an agreement between the parties. Those kind of programs could be great if we can get them more popular. 

My H actually does primarily domestic law. I just assist him with some cases and do more civil litigation and appellate work. Plus my domestic work is more in the DSS arena, which is a whole other ballgame. But that experience with family law has done our marriage really well. I used to think I would fight like hell for my kids b/c they need their mommy. Now we are both of the opinion that we would split equally and pretty much do whatever to keep our kids out of the court system. And we have discussed extensively how I am protected now that I have to stay home when our son is born. Interestingly enough, my husband pushes that discussion the most. 

katykatykaty

TallAsh said:

The idea offends me less than a prenup. To me, a prenup is preparing for divorce. I know that's antiquated thinking, but it's how it hits me. My husband owned his house before we got married, and he's definitely the bread winner, but his assets became our assets when we got married. I've added some financial gain to our marriage (not as much as him), but I've also created a home for us, moved with him at the drop of a hat for his career, etc. Those things are keys to his success, so I don't feel bad that he's paid more into our marriage than I have. A postnup, while still kind of preparing for divorce, at least is going into it with a "team" approach. It seems less selfish, for some reason. Like, "We are deciding, together, for one person to stay home with the kids. And even if I hate you in the future and we end things, I will still honor the choice WE made. I will respect the sacrifices you made for OUR children, even if I despise you." It seems like it kind of supports coparenting, which you will have to do regardless of marital status or feelings about the other person.

In Texas, a separate property state, it would still be considered his house since he bought it before you married... So his assets wouldn't really be considered your assets. 

I don't think it's selfish to do a prenup... As @kelley72 said, it's often a good way to help financially protect your kids if for some reason you end up divorcing. 

babylimas

katykatykaty said:

TallAsh said:

The idea offends me less than a prenup. To me, a prenup is preparing for divorce. I know that's antiquated thinking, but it's how it hits me. My husband owned his house before we got married, and he's definitely the bread winner, but his assets became our assets when we got married. I've added some financial gain to our marriage (not as much as him), but I've also created a home for us, moved with him at the drop of a hat for his career, etc. Those things are keys to his success, so I don't feel bad that he's paid more into our marriage than I have. A postnup, while still kind of preparing for divorce, at least is going into it with a "team" approach. It seems less selfish, for some reason. Like, "We are deciding, together, for one person to stay home with the kids. And even if I hate you in the future and we end things, I will still honor the choice WE made. I will respect the sacrifices you made for OUR children, even if I despise you." It seems like it kind of supports coparenting, which you will have to do regardless of marital status or feelings about the other person.

In Texas, a separate property state, it would still be considered his house since he bought it before you married... So his assets wouldn't really be considered your assets. 

I don't think it's selfish to do a prenup... As @kelley72 said, it's often a good way to help financially protect your kids if for some reason you end up divorcing. 

We are an equitable distribution state, but that only applies to assets acquired after marriage, so the home would still be considered his. If the home were improved or gained value that could be considered marital property. Or if marital property were used to pay the mortgage, than that portion of the home would become marital property. 

babylimas

Haha, I have no idea why I'm talking work on here. How boring.

And @katykatykaty - I think I used to practice in your city. If I am remembering where you live correctly . . . 

katykatykaty

@babylimas I'm in Dallas.  I would think pre-nups would be pretty popular with the wealthy people here, but maybe not because of religion. 

Nickiechan

TallAsh said:

The idea offends me less than a prenup. To me, a prenup is preparing for divorce. I know that's antiquated thinking, but it's how it hits me. My husband owned his house before we got married, and he's definitely the bread winner, but his assets became our assets when we got married. I've added some financial gain to our marriage (not as much as him), but I've also created a home for us, moved with him at the drop of a hat for his career, etc. Those things are keys to his success, so I don't feel bad that he's paid more into our marriage than I have. A postnup, while still kind of preparing for divorce, at least is going into it with a "team" approach. It seems less selfish, for some reason. Like, "We are deciding, together, for one person to stay home with the kids. And even if I hate you in the future and we end things, I will still honor the choice WE made. I will respect the sacrifices you made for OUR children, even if I despise you." It seems like it kind of supports coparenting, which you will have to do regardless of marital status or feelings about the other person.

All of this!!

babylimas

katykatykaty said:

@babylimas I'm in Dallas.  I would think pre-nups would be pretty popular with the wealthy people here, but maybe not because of the religion-factor. 

Yep, that's what I thought. I lived and worked there for a while. I wasn't actually licensed in TX b/c my work was in other states and I just Pro Hac'd under my current admission. It was an interesting place to live. Then I was laid off during the crash and came home. I miss the food. I wish I could still eat a taco every single day for lunch. 

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ufsandra85

I'm all for this. I think it is a great idea.

karacakes98

kelley72 said:

karacakes98 said:

Seriously? No. Just no.

yes seriously... do you have any experience with divorce?  Just curious bc your unwillingness to even entertain the idea suggests to me that you do not

I don't need to have been through my own divorce to know that giving myself an easier way out or a safety net is a bad idea. I believe in Biblical marriage, for better or for worse, until death do us part. Love isn't easy, marriage isn't easy -- it's hard work, and it's not always going to be fun. However, I don't feel that a true, solid relationship can be built from a lack of trust in your partner. The "what if we were to split up" thought isn't one that we entertain in my household

katykatykaty

@tallash I honestly am not very familiar with how they work, but I think it's like having a contract so you can put whatever terms in it that you want.  So you could put in it that upon divorce, you would sell the house and split the money from the sale.  Like I said, I have no idea if that's how they're actually written, but I think you would use it the same way a will would work... to over-ride the basic rules of whatever state you're in. 

dedeyoba

bearsbearsbears said:

@babylimas and @dedeyoba what are your thoughts on divorce mediation?  I recently listened to a piece on using mediation during divorce (I think it was on This American Life) and it seemed like it was a much better system where people, in general, ended up much happier with the results.

I think mediation is great because generally the parties both leave happier and feel like they "won" to some extent.

lalaith50

FarmBoysWife said:

are prenups and postnups really that rare in the US? I don't know of anyone here in Belgium who does not have a prenup, no matter how little or big money you have

Nope (edit: they are not common at all) , actually a lot of religious leaders (including the ones who did our pre marital counseling) won't marry you if you have one.

I've never heard of this. I would feel like asking this is pretty intrusive and nobody's business but mine.

I don't think it's an indicator of divorce personally. but both the men involved in my marriage asked and said if we did they wouldn't marry/approve the marriage to the other. (We were doing the premarital counseling in GA and got married in NH). I went to a bible college and I never met anyone who's pastors felt any different. I never even thought of it before we got engaged but I guess it's a thing in the Protestant community.

Adding to this- Also for Catholics, it's a huge deal. A pastor doesn't HAVE to marry anyone- he's allowed to know about your mentality and beliefs in the permanence of marriage going into marriage! Catholics aren't allowed to have pre-nups that say anything about "if this marriage ends..." because the very mindset of "if under any horrible circumstances this doesn't work out..." is already breaking the requirements for a valid Catholic marriage, in the lack of intention to marry "for life."

(And before anyone pounces on this b/c they have an anecdote of someone who had a Catholic marriage and has a pre-nup, yes, like most things not every priest will think to ask this, and even of those who are aware, this rule won't necessarily be enforced 100% of the time like intended.)

VanessaBee

dotgirl2 said:

karacakes98 said:

kelley72 said:

karacakes98 said:

Seriously? No. Just no.

yes seriously... do you have any experience with divorce?  Just curious bc your unwillingness to even entertain the idea suggests to me that you do not

I don't need to have been through my own divorce to know that giving myself an easier way out or a safety net is a bad idea. I believe in Biblical marriage, for better or for worse, until death do us part. Love isn't easy, marriage isn't easy -- it's hard work, and it's not always going to be fun. However, I don't feel that a true, solid relationship can be built from a lack of trust in your partner. The "what if we were to split up" thought isn't one that we entertain in my household

I prefer to think of a pre- or post-nup as insurance rather than an easy way out. 

No one gets into their car expecting to be in an accident, but driving can be dangerous, and sometimes things happen that are out of your control. And when they do, I think everyone can agree that having insurance is a good thing because it protects you financially in the case of the unexpected. 

Similarly, I don't think anyone goes into marriage expecting to get divorced, but you never know what could happen. I also believe in marriage, and fighting to make it work in most cases, but if I married someone who abused me, there is nothing in hell that could make me stay. And if I had a pre-nup, I would be damn happy I did. 

This. So so this. Even though my ex and I had a very friendly divorce, he was DEFINITELY not the man I or my family thought he was. And it would NOT have been okay to stay in that marriage.

Jmom10

Wow, when I posted this, I didn't think much of it at first. Now reading the comments, I could see how it would be beneficial in some instances. I quit my job teaching when my son was born and don't plan on signing one.

pepperedmoth

"Huh. OK." pretty much sums up my reaction to this, and to almost any other choice made with mutual consent and respect within a marriage.

I don't quite grasp the dislike or strong emotions against it, I guess. Some people have prenups. Some people have post-nups. Some people have open marriages. Some people have separate bedrooms. Some people like leather and chains. Some people have separate bathroom sinks.

We don't have any of those things, nor do I have professional/personal experience with them, so I think "Huh. OK," is really all the reaction that's reasonable for me to have. I don't get the judgment.

Except for the two sinks things. That's just always struck me as odd.

lalaith50

Oh I want double sinks so bad! H and I normally get ready for bed around the same time, and it's Soooo annoying to be the one waiting for the sink... I think it'd just be freaking adorable to be brushing our teeth next to each other! :-P

pepperedmoth

@dotgirl2, are you sure having two sinks isn't just preparation for divorce? ;-)

pepperedmoth

We pretty much don't have separate anything besides kind of milk in the fridge ...... and bank accounts.

pepperedmoth

@farmboyswife Oh gosh. We also have separate cars. MARITAL DISASTER. 

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kelley72

karacakes98 said:

karacakes98 said:

Seriously? No. Just no.

yes seriously... do you have any experience with divorce?  Just curious bc your unwillingness to even entertain the idea suggests to me that you do not

I don't need to have been through my own divorce to know that giving myself an easier way out or a safety net is a bad idea. I believe in Biblical marriage, for better or for worse, until death do us part. Love isn't easy, marriage isn't easy -- it's hard work, and it's not always going to be fun. However, I don't feel that a true, solid relationship can be built from a lack of trust in your partner. The "what if we were to split up" thought isn't one that we entertain in my household  O

just saw this, I'm catching up   I guess child abuse for you is ok, how about adultery?  Oh wait even the bible does give grounds for divorce.  I guess you think I woke up one morning  and said gee I think I'll get a divorce today. Because I mean that is the only reason people divorce because they had a bad night and changed their mind in the morning.  Good grief women, really? Going into marriage you don't think those things will happen but I didn't have a crystal ball.  to say that divorce is easy is ridiculous