Chartstalk/Questions Week of 10/02

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

This is a thread where anyone can feel free to request a chart stalk, second-guess FF's interpretation, or post TTC-related questions, regardless of where in your cycle you are. Sometimes FF is wrong. That's where we come in. Get your second opinion here!

Edited to fix title formatting.

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

Kicking off my first started discussion with the first reply. Chart posted below. As you'll see it is hella erratic.
I feel like I'm following all the rules:

I'm temping at 6:00 AM every day (except on very rare mornings when I go to the gym earlier and have to temp at 5:25. I make note of it.).

I'm using a Mobius (sp?) BBT thermometer.

As soon as my alarm goes off, I reach out and put the thermometer under my tongue without moving around a bunch.

Am I missing something? I'm thinking of switching next cycle and using the body temp my Ava has been providing. It seems less erratic. Maybe I'm wrong? All input welcome!

Fertility Friend chart:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/jq/44myt12xca2h.jpg

Versus

Ava Body temp chart:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/wp/k43xy3s9i13q.png

Thanks all!!

emmasemm · October 2017

@laceybee522
I also struggled to get reliable temps under the tongue, so moved to temping vaginally which was much less erratic.
However I also use Ava and either use it as the backup in case I get a weird temp or get woken up super early, as I did both religiously for three months and found the temp changes were the same with both at the same time (minus the ones I knew would be no good from the thermometer).
Sorry not much help with the thermometer stuff as so far what you explained covers most of the points I know to watch for.

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

Thanks @emmasemm. That's part of what I'm finding frustrating. I feel like my Ava and FF don't even correlate. I know the numbers will be different under tongue versus skin temp, but you'd think they'd both dip/rise at the same time.

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 I would also suggest trying the vaginal temping to see if you get more consistent temps (but wait until the next cycle starts if AF comes). Are you having restless sleeps on the days you have higher temps??

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

@canucklehead123 Thanks! I'm generally a fairly restless sleeper, but I haven't been keeping track of especially bad nights. I'll start doing that.

MoonOverGoldsboro · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 How long have you been temping? Do you know if your temps are always this erratic, or is it just for this cycle?

Everyone I personally know who struggled with oral temperature consistency (for whatever reason--restless sleep, mouth breathing, etc.) had better success with vaginal temping, but I know not everyone loves doing that.

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 yes keep track of restless nights!! If I have a restless sleep, my temp will spike without fail and this could be happening for you!
ETA: also, if you keep track of your CM every day it will help FF with your crosshairs

emmasemm · October 2017

@laceybee522 actually if you put your Ava HRV alongside you might see some correlation with the odd temps you're taking - or those nights where sleep is recorded shorter? As well as using FF I also chart manually in excel putting together my Ava and vaginal temps. But I'm just OCD for tracking!

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

@MoonOverGoldsboro I've been temping for two cycles. My previous month was just as erratic, but this is the first month I got any semblance of a cross hairs.

@canucklehead123 Yes, I need to track my CM better. I don't feel confident in my ability to identify the different consistencies, so I find myself just avoiding it.

@emmasemm I will take a closer look at the less sleep = high temp possibility. I've just been looking at mountans versus nice neat curve without really digging deeper.

A question for all of you, I guess...is vaginal temping the same process as oral temping, you're just putting it in a different hole? (<---Sorry! I couldn't think of a different way to explain my question!) Like, you just put it in and wait for the 4 beeps? God, I feel so dumb asking that question.

MoonOverGoldsboro · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 So, it sounds like maybe erratic oral temps are common for you, and this cycle isn't just a weird outlier. This could definitely be due to regular restless sleeping, which really fricks things up for some people. In that case, I would try a switch to vaginal temping for the next cycle. Yes, you just stick it in a different hole.

It takes a little more maneuvering than the oral temp, but it might be worth it!

spottedginger · October 2017

@emmasemm I love excel and love that you are a data nerd like me. I have no idea why tracking in excel never crossed my mind.

offtoneverland · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 I think you only have the dotted crosshairs because of your positive OPK, not temps. With your temps, it doesn't look to me like you Oed yet. Plus, with the EWCM today, I wonder if you might be Oing soon. Do you typically get EWCM after O? I think it's possible, but not super common to get it after O. I could definitely be wrong though and you may have Oed already!
Another question: what happens if you discard those high temps on CD8 and CD12? If those were high from restless sleep, I wonder if you might get solid crosshairs. If I were you, I'd keep HIO just in case though.

emmasemm · October 2017

@spottedginger haha I'm a total excel geek. As I have 2.5 years of data now I can run some pretty good analyses, with some fixed charts but I can adapt charts as I have everything in a table raw-data style first so just run pivots on different bases whenever I want. And I can model multiple variants simultaneously in case I'm not sure on a temp or other tracked element.
Ok geek post over

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

@MoonOverGoldsboro Thanks! Can't wait to explain to husband what the eff I'm doing in the morning now. All the LOLzzzzz!

@offtoneverland Thanks! The EWCF was actually a slip of the thumb when I was entering data this morning. Here's what it looks like with the CD8 and CD12 discarded:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/zj/8rpqowmrhi84.jpg

mygoodlucycat · October 2017

OK Folks I have never shared a chart and its still really early for me. I feel like I'm really stressing myself out with timing - I hope this isn't TMI but its hard for me to have sex like 5 days in a row. We are sexual with each other, but usually not to that degree. I don't want to get burned out before the time is right! I'm also second guessing myself on the ovulation predictor stuff. Last month I did it and could surely see when I was ovulating - it was clear after the fact. But my cycle isn't regular. Last month it looked like O day was at CD 15. I just wish I had a crystal ball. Any suggestions??I know you can't read the future, but any input would be great. Also, this is the first month I've temped.

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@mygoodlucycat judging by the positive OPK and slight temp dip - O looks imminent. It would be helpful to keep track of your CM, as this would add another layer of data and help you determine when your FW is. Have you noticed watery or egg-white cm today or in the last few days? If yes, then I'd head straight to the bedroom (or wherever works...!)

mygoodlucycat · October 2017

@canucklehead123 I am not totally sure on those OPKs! The lines aren't the same color but they are getting darker. Certainly not as dark as they get. I don't know. Thus the overthinking!!
Yes I need to do CM. Like @LaceyBee522 I don't have a lot of confidence in the CM stuff, but I'll work on it.

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@mygoodlucycat ah I see - sorry I misread! If they aren't as dark as you know they can get, then I would keep POAS until it's a true positive and you have no doubt. This happened to me this cycle too, ended up using a lot of OPKS but in the end, the true positive was beyond a doubt.

mygoodlucycat · October 2017

@canucklehead123 OK Thank you so much for your advice. I'll give us a pass tonight and we'll look again tomorrow. We have resigned to scheduling our lunches together at home from work so that we can have an afternoon delight, lol.

adirat · October 2017

@emmasemm Girl I love you even more now. I always used Excel for charting instead of FF and it's a delight.

@mygoodlucycat I think PPs gave some good insight, but another is, don't worry about having sex every single day. If it's causing you more stress and irritation than it's worth, go to every other day. I think many couples fall into this category, where trying to have sex every single day for TTC takes a real toll on the relationship, and there's no real benefit. Your chances with ED vs. EOD are almost identical.

br0co1ii · October 2017

@LaceyBee522 I always noticed that my temp would be higher if I had a 2nd (or more) drink the night before. Not saying you're a wino like I am, but something to consider. I had to be very careful about drinking when I thought O was coming soon.

@mygoodlucycat best of luck with HIO. That is always a struggle for us too. It's hard to not lose steam. I'd also recommend aiming for EOD if ED is getting too "business-like."

offtoneverland · October 2017

@mygoodlucycat Have you read Taking Charge of Your Fertility? I highly recommend it if you haven't. It really helps you get a grasp of CM, how to check for it, and how to differentiate between the different types. Totally agree with @canucklehead123 that the OPKs don't sound like they're positive yet. I'd change them to negative in FF and watch for the test line to get as dark or darker than the control. And I fully agree with @adirat too. Try not to stress yourself out with HIO every day, especially if you guys are not up for it. I stressed myself out about it last cycle and we had great timing, but obviously it doesn't really mean anything since I'm still here.

Just try to do what you normally do while watching your CM. GL to you!

holly321 · October 2017

I too want to agree with @adirat, HIO every day because you have to is the worst. One time while TTC, we did every day for 2 weeks and I never ovulated. It was frustrating on both of us and felt like such a chore. We are at a place now DH doesn't like to know when we "have" to, essentially I just initiate on those days and don't tell him.

adirat · October 2017

Phew, I'm glad so many ladies agree with me! We also tried every day a couple of cycles, and it was a real drag. We typically did EOD + the day I got a positive OPK. It allowed some relaxation and romance in it still, instead of "well it's 8 PM, better get out the Preseed"...

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@adirat I wish I had taken pictures of DH's face every time he has walked in on me 'applying' the pre-seed pre-BD....or me saying "I can't move otherwise the pre-seed will come out" and I'm just staked out on my back. LOL - the things we do!!

MoonOverGoldsboro · October 2017

I have routinely referred to applying Preseed as "putting in the goo." Really gets those loins burnin', let me tell you.

josie12367 · October 2017

We mix it up...we'll do everyday if we feel like it, but if one of us is stressed or just not feeling it, we switch to EOD. I think next cycle we'll just stick to EOD.

LaceyBee522 · October 2017

@canucklehead123 and @MoonOverGoldsboro We just switched from the Astroglide TTC to the PreSeed (bc I think the Astroglide might be discontinued). Boy were we surprised by what was really required with PreSeed! When I showed it to husband he was like, "Nope, you're dealing with that bit."

If you haven't seen them, the Astroglide applicators are just individual pre-measured containers with a pointy applicator. Much less intimidating.

br0co1ii · October 2017

And here I was, never having looked into Preeseed, just assuming it was like regular lube... the more you know!

krash_ · October 2017

@br0co1ii SAME!

canucklehead123 · October 2017

@br0co1ii you can use it like regular lube as well (unsure if it less effective this way or not, but assuming so as it is farther away from cervix)...

adirat · October 2017

I only used Preseed like regular lube. That stuff is frighteningly slippery and I can't imagine filling the whole vaginal canal with it.

darkstar42 · October 2017

Quick question about cervical position, which I'm just starting to figure out how to track. I understood from TCOYF that it should feel relatively low and hard during the luteal phase, but I'm unclear how much variation there is in this. For ladies who track cervical position, what do you notice during the luteal phase?

lurvleybunchococonuts · October 2017

Ok science nerds, I dunno why I do this to myself... I *of course* was obsessively googling about anovulatory cycles, BBT temp shifts, and if ovulation is possible without a BBT shift temp (cause clearly I'm in denial and more willing to accept myself as a medical miracle than admit I haven't O'd yet) and I came across this article. Now I know just because it's a published article doesn't mean it's the gospel truth. But any thoughts on this? It flat out states, "However, it has long been recognized that some women may ovulate without a clear rise in temperature; this is called a monophasic pattern (Figure 3) (Morris, Underwood, & Easterling, 1976)." Also, "Only 22.1% of the 77 cycles that were determined by endocrine profiles to be ovulatory and to have adequate luteal phases demonstrated an interpretable shift."

Either way, long story short I don't know what to make of this article. The key point of it is to prove that BBT charting is not the most accurate way to predict ovulation, well no duh. That's a given, but some of the other things mentioned seem opposite of what I've always heard. I don't know if there's any truth in stating that it's possible to O w/o a temp shift. Thoughts?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7628964_Basal_body_temperature_assessment_is_it_useful_to_couples_seeking_pregnancy

ETA: words and stuff, also to note, I did try search TB a bit to see if this has been previously discussed, but couldn't find anything.

josie12367 · October 2017

So @darkstar42....for me, high position is where I can just barely feel my cervix. Medium is about to my second knuckle, but no higher. Low is anything less than that. This will vary person to person though. So you'll have to come up with your own "guide" for measuring height. I find that in the follicular phase I can be all over the place height wise, but more consistent with firmness...as in my cervix is soft after period, then gets harder gradually, then will get super soft in FW, and then back to firm during LP. For my LP I find it consistently firm, and closed....but height again can be all over. It does help to check it at a consistent time everyday as it will change throughout your day. I check CP every morning, and use that position and firmness for charting purposes...

ETA: Confession: The whole time I was typing hard, firm, and soft...I was totally visualizing a penis

darkstar42 · October 2017

@josie12367 Thank you! That's really helpful. I've just started checking this cycle (and not very consistently), so I don't have a sense yet of what normal feels like for me.
(Also, I totally lol'd at your penis visualization comment)

krash_ · October 2017

@darkstar42 I feel like I might have a longer vagina because no matter if it is low or high I always have to use my whole finger. It's always kind of in the same spot but when its high it is closer to the top and when its low it sits closer to the bottom. I feel like I need to draw a picture because its hard to describe. I think it is similar to OPK's in that you're never quite sure until you know for sure. I would definitely say checking it everyday helps because you get more familiar with the subtle changes.

also @josie12367 the cervix is usually compared to a penis so that makes sense.

offtoneverland · October 2017

@darkstar42 I'm finally starting to learn my CP as well! It takes some time. I feel like the height of mine doesn't differ much throughout the cycle though. I can tell when it's a little bit higher during FW, but not by much. Every once in a while it will be really low during the luteal phase, but not very often.
@lurvleybunchococonuts I've seen that study before too and it just made me wonder WTF we're supposed to do if BBT is not reliable?! I hope someone chimes in with some good science to help us out. I wonder how sound that study is. Everything else I've seen seems to indicate that BBT is pretty trustworthy. I bet they just published that article to further confuse all of us since the TTC process is already so easy!

lurvleybunchococonuts · October 2017

@offtoneverland right? I hope someone smarter than me can give some insight lol. Maybe @fishsticks-n-custard will come back and explain it all? She's a doctor, so she knows everything... right?

jrm_14 · October 2017

@lurvleybunchococonuts @offtoneverland I read this article when I was learning the Creighton Method more in-depth. I think it may even be quoted in one of the CrM books. Overall, what I took away from it is the importance of using multiple methods to predict/confirm O, such as CM, BBT, OPKs.
No method is ever really completely reliable. U/S clearly gives a more accurate picture if the LH surge actually led to O or if the BBT shift was actually from a mature follicle rupture. It sucks not having concrete answers, even when we are taking multiple forms of data.

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