@ElleKH Right, I agree you are sharing knowledge that you have researched online and posted about. I am also sharing knowledge, coming from the health field, that one should always question what they read online and consult with their pediatrician. Its not a mean to discredit you.
@ElleKH im not a honey. I didn't use anything to "push" her to do anything early. We used everything listed and she still reached milestones early. As I said she also spent a ton of time on the floor and was about to explore our entire house thus leading her to standing then to walking early.
im going to do use what I want with my children. Others will or won't use what they want with theirs and it's no ones business truly. Spreading information is great but I don't want say a ftm be scared of using items that have been used for many many years with success and no harm be smart and your kid will be fine. There's way worse thjngs you can do other than use an excersaucer.
To address the Dr Google aspect of parenting and having doctors or nurses write articles about what parents "should" do: there's conflicting information in many aspects of raising infants. Some say CIO is great and others say it creates sociopaths. Some say attachment parenting is the only way to go and others say you have to cut the chord eventually. Some say vaccines in their CDC approved order is crap and it should be a delayed schedule. Some say to intoduce high allergen foods early and others say introduce them after 2. You get medical professionals with different opinions who only want the best for their patients, even from one practice to another. If you're mature enough to have unprotected sex and birthe a baby, you're old enough to treat the Internet with caution, reasearch, then ask your pedi for clarification and recommendations.
Id also like to add how refreshing it is to see this kind of dialogue remain flame free and respectful. This BMB is awesome
@Becky012016 I agree 100%! We had a doctor for my daughter until 6 months then switched and they both have very different approaches.
There's a ton of information out there and I admit to getting sucked into google sometimes lol. I always talk to our doctor get their perspective then choose what's best for my kid
1) find a pediatrician you love and trust 2) listen to the advice of said pediatrician 3) look at information showing various perspectives on subjects and balance that with the info received from said pediatrician 4) take all that info and parent how you see fit... 5) what works for some moms might not work for you and your child and vice versa...
I loved my pediatrician in Los Angeles and I'm learning to trust my pediatrician here in Texas and they have similar views on some stuff but wildly varying views in other areas. I think it's important to do your research on all aspects of parenting and make you're own informed decision as to what's going to be best for you and your family.
Like i said...I think using a bumbo or exersaucer is ok and many of us have and will continue to use them, but the alternative perspective offered here I think is interesting. I don't think the info is meant to scare ftm's but merely to offer an alternate viewpoint to ponder that maybe we hadn't heard before. I say take the info or leave it and just use everything in moderation...baby will be fine.
I read a lot and love the philosophy of REI. Janet Landsburry bases her ideas on Magda Gerber and it is a lot of natural development- no forced sitting, forces walking, etc. This idea is not unique to Europe. I essentially agree with what your original post is about.
Where I disagree with you is saying this is medical fact. Because it's not. Peer reviewed studies are not unique to the US. It's called science.
Also, all babies in the US ARE screened for hip dysphasia- not with ultrasound, but a maneuvers called Ortolani and Barlow at birth, one week, one month etc.
Again, the idea you are sharing here I agree with, but I really disagree with misinformation and fear mongering. Most kids are not harmed by forced sitting, walkers etc. If you but your kid in a jumper for hours and hours a day you are increasing the risk to hip problems.
I love natural development. I've done my research it works well for my family. I've discussed it with my pediatrician in the US who is 100% supportive.
As a FTM, this thread didn't "scare" me. I really appreciate @ElleKH 's gently and respectfully offered insight from her experiences from outside the US.
I didn't get a fear mongering vibe from this thread, either. I also didn't get the impression (and I hope I didn't give the impression) that this is a European "thing". This perspective is just more widespread and mainstream in Europe and less so in Canada/States from my experience, but you can find people using seats and things in Europe just like you can find people who don't use them until their child has already mastered that skill on their own in North America.
TTGP history (*TW*):
Started TTC Oct 2015 BFP #1 June 2016: EDD 16 March 2017, MC July 2016 Re-started TTC Aug 2016 Started IF testing Nov 2016 Spontaneous BFP #2 January 2017: Rainbow Baby Boy September 2017 BFP #3 November 2018: Baby #2 expected August 2019
@BigBadWolf12 I remember hearing you first talk about finding a stroller with a bassinett, and I was like whoa! So unique! No one uses that here, it's impracticle, cute and antique! Just like you thought when you lived over here. So I giggled at that. The differing of opinions is so neat to see from country to country. And of course, like all parents do, we will do research and do what we find is best for our kiddos!
I'm glad this was brought up - I love reading differing thoughts and opinions about things.
Me: 27 years old DH: 27 years old Type 1 Diabetes since 2001, MTHFR hetero A1298T Dogs: Raider 4 yrs, Dex 4 yrs
Married in July 2014
TTC #1 since late Feb 2016
BFP #1 3/29/16 MMC: 5/5/16 BFP #2 7/6/16 SCH, D&C 8/4/16 BFP #3 12/26/16 EDD: 9/6/17 My Chart / My Diabetes/Pregnancy Blog My Type 1/TTC/Pregnancy Podcast: Juicebox Podcast Episode 118 A1Cs: 1/12/16 6.7% 5/25/16 6.0% 11/2/16 6.1% 3/22/16 5.8% 4/27/17 5.4% 6/13/17 5.3% "Sugar Fancy Tutu"
@Becky012016 - I appreciate your skepticism! It's important to ask questions and look into things like this. And I understand your suspicions about the author offering alternative products. But the thing is, if I were an occupational therapist and a mother, and if proper child development was my passion and life calling, I would want to share healthy alternatives with other parents too. Because, like she said, people and babies love these devices and they're probably not going to stop using them, even though that's what seems best in her professional opinion. So she's trying to find a compromise: offering less harmful options, limiting time spent in them, and offering suggestions to make the time spent in them healthier. And for those reasons, I tend to believe her.
I also want to address a valid point brought up by you and @jutondreau. You mentioned not being able to find peer-reviewed material. Sadly, that doesn't really surprise me since, like I said in before, because this is such a widely accepted and even promoted practice in the US - The Bump itself and most American pediatricians recommend early forced sitting and weight bearing activities - I wouldn't expect there to be much out there. But please keep in mind that just because it is accepted as the norm in the US, that does not mean that it is the norm everywhere. There are other places in the world where people have studied this more and have published their findings, leading to a change in what doctors recommend and what parents do. The problem I ran into here is finding information in English to share with the rest of you. I can find you a ton of material in Czech, but that's not going to help most of you.
I understand that different perspectives are sometimes hard to swallow, especially when it goes against everything you assumed was normal. It was a big shock for me when we moved over here too. But honestly, I have to tell you, the Czechs do this better. (And I can't say that about everything, but in this case, it's true.) At 6 weeks, every baby attends a quick ultrasound screening of the hip joints. If something is wrong, parents are advised immediately as to what should be done to try to fix the problem early and prevent more serious issues from developing. I've never heard of this being done in the US, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Doctors pay very close attention to the position of baby's entire body at every check up: when on their back, on their belly, rolling both directions, creeping, crawling, sitting, standing, and walking. If anything, even the smallest thing, seems off, baby and parents are sent to a physical therapist to address the issue(s). Physical therapists teach parents to use Vojta's Method, massage, and other exercises to help baby overcome these developmental stumbling blocks and get back to normal developmental patterns. This is something that we just don't offer in the US, as far as I know, and I am very grateful that we live here, even though it's hard to be so far from family and friends back home. I truly feel that my baby is in better hands here.
That being said, I honestly just want to pass what I've learned here onto you other mamas who may not have access to this perspective otherwise. Again, you are free to choose what is best for you, your babies, and your families. I have absolutely no say in that. But I believe in sharing knowledge, and I hope that if any of you come across anything that goes against the grain, but seems important, that you'll do the rest of us the favor of sharing it and letting us make our own decisions about it. One of the big reasons many of us are here is to love, support, and help one another. That's all I'm truly interested in doing.
Hips & other joints are checked at birth as well as at regular follow ups with your pediatrician/FP doc/provider. An ultrasound is not medically necessary unless there is found to be an issue such as malalignment/clicking which can indicate hip dysplasia.
Just because something is widely accepted, does not mean that it is only based on popular opinion or that it hasn't been studied. Places (ie daycares) that receive federal and state funding abide by certain standards and I can tell you that most if not all of these are based upon research and science. (Basically these decisions are not just made willy nilly).
Are you entitled to doing what you decide with the information you find? Certainly. Do we all agree on time limiting whatever you decide to do, yes, that seems to be the case. Anyway, I digress and don't want to get into an argument...
@BigBadWolf12 Every time I see a picture like this I think "Oh look how cute they are. So properly British and wealthy with their completely impractical little bassinet stroller that no common person would ever use." I didn't realize it was actually a normal thing across the pond. I've literally never seen anyone use one of these in the States. I find it quite fascinating to see the differences in tradition (and medical perspectives) in various countries and cultures.
**TW**
Me & DH: 32 Married 2013 Kiddo #1: Sept 2015 BFP: 1/19, EDD: 9/30
"I'm having fruit salad for dinner. Well, it's mostly just grapes, actually. Ok all grapes. Fermented grapes. Fine, I'm having wine for dinner."
@lizlann yea, the royals' carriage is definitely a fancier version of the ones all over here. Ours are more like ATVs with huge air tires, beefy frames, etc. like the one @amandarene112 posted!
@sugargirl1019 yea, I should start by prefacing "I'm looking for a bassinet stroller" with "I live in Europe with no car, so we'll use the bassinet attachment WAY more than the bucket car seat attachment. Otherwise people think I'm a crazy FTM who has not a clue of life with an infant. lol
TTGP history (*TW*):
Started TTC Oct 2015 BFP #1 June 2016: EDD 16 March 2017, MC July 2016 Re-started TTC Aug 2016 Started IF testing Nov 2016 Spontaneous BFP #2 January 2017: Rainbow Baby Boy September 2017 BFP #3 November 2018: Baby #2 expected August 2019
Good morning, ladies! First, I have some apologies to make and some fires to put out. I can't tell you how much I hate hurting other people's feelings. It crushes me. When I jumped on here last night to look at the latest responses, I actually ended up crying and having a really hard time falling asleep because I felt so bad about it. So first thing's first: trying to make amends.
@mcdoug211 - I am so so sorry if what I wrote came off as an attack on you and the way you raise your children! It wasn't intended to be one and I can't apologize enough if it read that way. Please forgive me. Also, I will never again use a term of endearment with someone I've never met before. That was a mistake and I'm sorry for that too. Just please know that I was using it kindly and not in a mean or sarcastic way. Again, I'm sorry if it came off that way. It was meant as a lighthearted kindness and nothing more. And lastly, I want to say that I agree with you: it is no one's business but your own how you raise your family. I thought I made that clear throughout this thread, but I suppose I failed there too. I hope we can resolve this and move on because I truly hate being on bad terms with anyone. I'm so sorry if I caused you pain.
@DaphneMoon1 - First, thank you for the information and insight you provided! I am so glad and so relieved to learn about the Ortolani and Barlow maneuvers! I had no idea. Thank you for educating me. I had asked my mom (a retired life-long nurse who worked alongside pediatricians) about hip screenings in the US when DS was getting his, but she hadn't heard of them. But then again, I was asking in reference to ultrasounds. Either way, she may not have known that they take place at all. She was never a doctor. Also, I just want to clear something up that really stuck me in the heart. I don't believe I ever claimed that this is medical fact. I did state that where I live, this is common medical advice (based on real, longterm research), as well as in several other places. I am well aware that the common medical advice in the US runs contrary to this, which is why I opened up this discussion in the first place. And I stated several times throughout this thread that it is only meant to bring a fresh perspective to the table and that the parents here are free to do with that what they will. Because of that, I was absolutely crushed to hear that I came across as fear-mongering, when that is something I am actively trying to avoid. So I hope we can understand one another better now and move on to bigger and better things. I have a great deal of respect for the matters you've looked into and I'd love to learn more! And I don't want any residual bad feelings getting in the way of that.
Some consolation came from @BigBadWolf12 and @jena333, and I really can't thank you ladies enough for your kind words of support and your understanding! @BigBadWolf12 - you summed all of this up better than I ever could have in a short, sweet, solitary comment! I admire that ability and wish I could do the same. Thanks again.
@BigBadWolf12 - I didn't get around to addressing what you wrote earlier about bassinet strollers. I've always loved them for their looks, but I didn't know that they are the going recommendation elsewhere in Europe! That was really interesting to read. Before DS was born, we bought a used Hauck stroller and we absolutely love it! It came with a bucket car seat, a bassinet, and an adjustable upright seat for older babies. Any of these easily clips onto the frame, which is a heavyduty, 3-wheeled, German-engineered wonder. It's huge and it's heavy, so it's not the easiest thing to load into the car, but for walking around town and hitting the trails, it's amazing. The bassinet setup looks very similar to the photo you posted, @amandarene112! But I love the elegance of the antique-styled strollers like the one @Lizlann shared. For our family, though, the versatility of the Hauck was more practical. Also, I love love love the points you made at the end of that first comment. That's a very healthy perspective and really great advice!
@kelseyrayray - No hard feelings. I love discussions like these. I love learning new things and hearing the thoughts, opinions, and experiences of others, but I really dislike hurt feelings, which sometimes happen when the topic is a controversial one. I knew this had the ability to turn into a controversial subject and I was really regretting ever bringing it up last night. But after looking through everything with fresh eyes this morning, I have to agree with @Becky012016 when she commented on "how refreshing it is to see this kind of dialogue remain flame free and respectful." I think our BMB has handled this very well and I'm interested to see what other controversial topics pop up in the future and what everyone has to say about them.
@Becky012016 - Yes!! I love everything you had to say about the conflicting information out there. We each have to find our own path. It's going to be interesting to see which ones each of us explore as these babies are born and start growing.
@Texafornian - That is rock solid advice. Well said! God, I wish I could be as succinct as you are! Teach me your ways!
@Sugargirl1019 - Thank you so much for your kind words of appreciation! It meant a lot to me reading it this morning and it gave me the courage to continue after being ready to give up and peace out last night. I can be such a coward sometimes. Thanks for giving me some backbone.
@jutondreau - I forgot to thank you in the earlier post! Thank you, thank you for cluing me in on the hip and joint screenings that take place in the US! I was so glad to read that! I was also happy to read about what you said regarding the standards followed by care centers and how those standards come about. You certainly know a lot more about how things are done in the US than I do and I really appreciate your input!
Alright, I think I got back to everyone. If I missed you, I'm sorry! Please let me know.
Thank you all for an intelligent, exciting, and mind-broadening discussion! I feel the wiser for it and I'm glad that I brought it up. That being said, I don't think I'll be starting any more controversial threads because I just can't take the heat and the hurt feelings. But I'm looking forward to seeing those that pop up in the future! I'll just leave that up to the rest of you.
@ElleKH no offense taken! In general I feel like it's used condescendingly. As I said sharing info is great I've shared things that I don't necessarily agree with but give a different idea/perspective!
@mcdoug211 - Gaaah, thank you so much! That makes me feel so much better. I want to give you a giant hug, but that might be considered inappropriate. I'll settle for a virtual handshake, if that's cool with you.
I do agree that Dr googling stuff obsessively is bad, but being informed is good. Some pediatricians will recommend unsafe sleep positions for example even though it increases the risk of positional asphyxiation and/ or sids. I do think doing your own research is good.
Will I be using the exersuacer after reading, yes I will. Maybe for lesser times though.
Re: FYI: Baby's Development and Forced Sitting, Etc.
im going to do use what I want with my children. Others will or won't use what they want with theirs and it's no ones business truly. Spreading information is great but I don't want say a ftm be scared of using items that have been used for many many years with success and no harm be smart and your kid will be fine. There's way worse
thjngs you can do other than use an excersaucer.
Id also like to add how refreshing it is to see this kind of dialogue remain flame free and respectful. This BMB is awesome
There's a ton of information out there and I admit to getting sucked into google sometimes lol. I always talk to our doctor get their perspective then choose what's best for my kid
2) listen to the advice of said pediatrician
3) look at information showing various perspectives on subjects and balance that with the info received from said pediatrician
4) take all that info and parent how you see fit...
5) what works for some moms might not work for you and your child and vice versa...
I loved my pediatrician in Los Angeles and I'm learning to trust my pediatrician here in Texas and they have similar views on some stuff but wildly varying views in other areas. I think it's important to do your research on all aspects of parenting and make you're own informed decision as to what's going to be best for you and your family.
Like i said...I think using a bumbo or exersaucer is ok and many of us have and will continue to use them, but the alternative perspective offered here I think is interesting. I don't think the info is meant to scare ftm's but merely to offer an alternate viewpoint to ponder that maybe we hadn't heard before. I say take the info or leave it and just use everything in moderation...baby will be fine.
**TW**
Losses:
#1: 8wks MMC 4/16
#2: 13+4 T21 + Hydrops 3/17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYliyCxV2AE
Where I disagree with you is saying this is medical fact. Because it's not. Peer reviewed studies are not unique to the US. It's called science.
Also, all babies in the US ARE screened for hip dysphasia- not with ultrasound, but a maneuvers called Ortolani and Barlow at birth, one week, one month etc.
Again, the idea you are sharing here I agree with, but I really disagree with misinformation and fear mongering. Most kids are not harmed by forced sitting, walkers etc. If you but your kid in a jumper for hours and hours a day you are increasing the risk to hip problems.
I love natural development. I've done my research it works well for my family. I've discussed it with my pediatrician in the US who is 100% supportive.
BFP #1 June 2016: EDD 16 March 2017, MC July 2016
Re-started TTC Aug 2016
Started IF testing Nov 2016
Spontaneous BFP #2 January 2017: Rainbow Baby Boy September 2017
BFP #3 November 2018: Baby #2 expected August 2019
I'm glad this was brought up - I love reading differing thoughts and opinions about things.
Type 1 Diabetes since 2001, MTHFR hetero A1298T
Dogs: Raider 4 yrs, Dex 4 yrs
BFP #2 7/6/16 SCH, D&C 8/4/16
BFP #3 12/26/16 EDD: 9/6/17
My Chart / My Diabetes/Pregnancy Blog
My Type 1/TTC/Pregnancy Podcast:
Juicebox Podcast Episode 118
A1Cs:
1/12/16 6.7%
5/25/16 6.0%
11/2/16 6.1%
3/22/16 5.8%
4/27/17 5.4%
6/13/17 5.3%
"Sugar Fancy Tutu"
Just because something is widely accepted, does not mean that it is only based on popular opinion or that it hasn't been studied. Places (ie daycares) that receive federal and state funding abide by certain standards and I can tell you that most if not all of these are based upon research and science. (Basically these decisions are not just made willy nilly).
Are you entitled to doing what you decide with the information you find? Certainly. Do we all agree on time limiting whatever you decide to do, yes, that seems to be the case. Anyway, I digress and don't want to get into an argument...
Married 2013
Kiddo #1: Sept 2015
BFP: 1/19, EDD: 9/30
"I'm having fruit salad for dinner. Well, it's mostly just grapes, actually. Ok all grapes. Fermented grapes. Fine, I'm having wine for dinner."
@sugargirl1019 yea, I should start by prefacing "I'm looking for a bassinet stroller" with "I live in Europe with no car, so we'll use the bassinet attachment WAY more than the bucket car seat attachment. Otherwise people think I'm a crazy FTM who has not a clue of life with an infant. lol
BFP #1 June 2016: EDD 16 March 2017, MC July 2016
Re-started TTC Aug 2016
Started IF testing Nov 2016
Spontaneous BFP #2 January 2017: Rainbow Baby Boy September 2017
BFP #3 November 2018: Baby #2 expected August 2019
@mcdoug211 - I am so so sorry if what I wrote came off as an attack on you and the way you raise your children! It wasn't intended to be one and I can't apologize enough if it read that way. Please forgive me. Also, I will never again use a term of endearment with someone I've never met before. That was a mistake and I'm sorry for that too. Just please know that I was using it kindly and not in a mean or sarcastic way. Again, I'm sorry if it came off that way. It was meant as a lighthearted kindness and nothing more.
And lastly, I want to say that I agree with you: it is no one's business but your own how you raise your family. I thought I made that clear throughout this thread, but I suppose I failed there too. I hope we can resolve this and move on because I truly hate being on bad terms with anyone. I'm so sorry if I caused you pain.
@DaphneMoon1 - First, thank you for the information and insight you provided! I am so glad and so relieved to learn about the Ortolani and Barlow maneuvers! I had no idea. Thank you for educating me.
Also, I just want to clear something up that really stuck me in the heart. I don't believe I ever claimed that this is medical fact. I did state that where I live, this is common medical advice (based on real, longterm research), as well as in several other places. I am well aware that the common medical advice in the US runs contrary to this, which is why I opened up this discussion in the first place. And I stated several times throughout this thread that it is only meant to bring a fresh perspective to the table and that the parents here are free to do with that what they will. Because of that, I was absolutely crushed to hear that I came across as fear-mongering, when that is something I am actively trying to avoid.
So I hope we can understand one another better now and move on to bigger and better things. I have a great deal of respect for the matters you've looked into and I'd love to learn more! And I don't want any residual bad feelings getting in the way of that.
Some consolation came from @BigBadWolf12 and @jena333, and I really can't thank you ladies enough for your kind words of support and your understanding! @BigBadWolf12 - you summed all of this up better than I ever could have in a short, sweet, solitary comment! I admire that ability and wish I could do the same. Thanks again.
@BigBadWolf12 - I didn't get around to addressing what you wrote earlier about bassinet strollers. I've always loved them for their looks, but I didn't know that they are the going recommendation elsewhere in Europe! That was really interesting to read. Before DS was born, we bought a used Hauck stroller and we absolutely love it! It came with a bucket car seat, a bassinet, and an adjustable upright seat for older babies. Any of these easily clips onto the frame, which is a heavyduty, 3-wheeled, German-engineered wonder. It's huge and it's heavy, so it's not the easiest thing to load into the car, but for walking around town and hitting the trails, it's amazing. The bassinet setup looks very similar to the photo you posted, @amandarene112! But I love the elegance of the antique-styled strollers like the one @Lizlann shared. For our family, though, the versatility of the Hauck was more practical.
Also, I love love love the points you made at the end of that first comment. That's a very healthy perspective and really great advice!
@kelseyrayray - No hard feelings.
@Becky012016 - Yes!! I love everything you had to say about the conflicting information out there. We each have to find our own path. It's going to be interesting to see which ones each of us explore as these babies are born and start growing.
@Texafornian - That is rock solid advice. Well said! God, I wish I could be as succinct as you are! Teach me your ways!
@DPandMB - That was a very sweet commerical. It made me smile. Thanks for sharing! It reminded me of this one (also from Similac):
@Sugargirl1019 - Thank you so much for your kind words of appreciation! It meant a lot to me reading it this morning and it gave me the courage to continue after being ready to give up and peace out last night. I can be such a coward sometimes. Thanks for giving me some backbone.
@jutondreau - I forgot to thank you in the earlier post! Thank you, thank you for cluing me in on the hip and joint screenings that take place in the US! I was so glad to read that! I was also happy to read about what you said regarding the standards followed by care centers and how those standards come about. You certainly know a lot more about how things are done in the US than I do and I really appreciate your input!
Thank you all for an intelligent, exciting, and mind-broadening discussion! I feel the wiser for it and I'm glad that I brought it up. That being said, I don't think I'll be starting any more controversial threads because I just can't take the heat and the hurt feelings.
Will I be using the exersuacer after reading, yes I will. Maybe for lesser times though.