Pregnancy and Advanced Directives

michaela0704 · November 2016

I feel that this is a very personal question/choice but something I've been really struggling with for this pregnancy.

During my first pregnancy, DH and I discussed what we would do if we were ever placed in a situation where someone (whether it be me if I was lucid or DH, my parents, my brother if I wasn't) had to decide between my life and the twins' lives. The twin factor may have tipped the scales but we talked about it would depend on the scenario but if it was equal/close chances of survival and we had to pick... it would be the twins.

Now, I am a mother to 2 children... that have me in their daily lives and I can't imagine my life without.

DH and I started talking through what this means for us with this pregnancy. I seriously don't know what to do but feel strongly we need to make a choice and have it captured in my advanced directive in case, God forbid, my OB or other doctor has to make a call based on our wishes. On one hand, it feels selfish to ever say I wouldn't put my baby's life before mine but then on the other side how is it fair to take my other childrens' mother away? I can't imagine my life without my mother, I've had friends who lost parents as children... its so unbelievably heartbreaking.

I feel like I lose with either choice but I have to make one... and I just can't seem to do it right now. But I want DH and I to make that choice together vs. having someone else make it for us...

Anyone else thought this through yet? What are you doing?

halfthetree · November 2016

Absolutely. My mind goes to all of these dark but practical places when I'm pregnant. I will be birthing at home, have very little risk at all, but still make my wishes known to my husband and midwife. For us, my children need their mother. If it came down to it, it would be saving me. I would take the grief, the brokenness and guilt that come along, if it means my children have their mother there for them. What a crap decision to make, and my heart would just want to say save the baby, but I have a responsibility to my children. This is why I work out, why I eat clean and practice a healthy lifestyle. My kids deserve to have me there for them.

Mashunya425 · November 2016

This might be an unpopular opinion- but if it absolutely came down to the binary decision of me or the baby and there was NO better choice then we would always pick me. As hard as it would be to make this decision, ultimately we are healthy and young and would be able to get pregnant again. The baby has no ties to this world yet-such as strong relationships with a spouse, other children, parents, etc. It doesn't mean my life is more valuable in the moral sense, but that more people need me.

@halfthetree also brought up an excellent point regarding responsibility to living children. I don't have children yet, but I would absolutely have the same thought if I did.

I really hope none of us are put in the situation of making this decision...

michaela0704 · November 2016

@halfthetree I have basically had those same thoughts but I can't seem to commit to that mentality 100%. I feel like I want to have all facts and to be involved in the decision if it ever had to be made... but that isn't possible. ugh...

@Mashunya425 I completely agree with you, I hope no one is put in the situation of having to make such a decision either.

c1tym0m22 · November 2016

I agree with @halfthetree and @Mashunya425

Having a 2nd child means that we are going to be changing DD's life, and we want to be responsible in doing so. If it came down to her having a sibling or her mom, it feels like an incredibly painful and yet almost obvious decision to make sure she grows up with a mom.

It's a tough thing to think about - let us all hope that no one has to make the decision.

BelhurstBride · November 2016

DH and I have already had this talk. Our priority is 100% our living children. My absence would devastate DD1 in ways I'm not sure from which she'd ever recover.

This may produce flames, but given our ages this time around have opted for genetic testing and have already discussing what we do if the results were far from favorable. We've by no means made a decision, and in spite of my career prior to children being focused on the disabled, we agreed to consider how a severe disability could adversely affect our girls lives. And believe me, the me of 7 years ago is judging the shit out of the me now, who's actually even willing to consider that.

flyingncmama · November 2016

My children can't get another mother, so I'd absolutely say save me. While the loss of a baby would be terrible, it would be significantly easier for my children and my husband to handle than the loss of me.

MrsW524 · November 2016

To those that have responded - the logic here makes complete sense to me when it comes to leaving children motherless. Was your opinion different when you were having your first child? I ask because this is my first pregnancy and I'm torn between "I wouldn't be leaving any children behind" and "yes, but what about my husband and the rest of my family?" and it all just snowballs from there in my head. Definitely need to talk it out with DH, but I'm glad this conversation is happening here.

c1tym0m22 · November 2016

@MrsW524 You're absolutely right that it's a different question when it's your first. I think we would have made the same choice (me, not the baby) - but I agree that discussing with DH is critical (especially since it will likely be his call unless you have someone else legally responsible for your medical decisions).

Elyse1384 · November 2016

@MrsW524 for my first I felt the opposite from how I do now. With #1 I was adamant that they save the baby. With 2 LOs now, I would be devastated at the loss of my child, but my older kids need me so much now. DS is nearing 3 and I'm his world. He loves DH, but everything is "Mommy Mommy Mommy". My biggest fear is anything happening to my kids, but my second biggest fear is not being there for them as they grow up.

JAGinMI · November 2016

Is this something that you put in writing and give to someone? As crazy as it might sound, not only have I not given this any thought in my previous pregnancies, but I don't think anyone brought it up to me either!

It's only sane and logical to save yourself when you have children already. It would probably be the most horrific thing ever but that doesn't matter because you have to do everything possible to make sure to be there for your kids as they grow up. And even for a first baby - neither myself or my husband would have wanted to leave him with a baby and not me.

Good Lord, this is a scary topic. I have a pit in my stomach right now.

BelhurstBride · November 2016

@MrsW524, to be honest? It's not something I even worried about it. DH and I never even discussed it.

That said, I don't doubt for a minute that DH, if forced to make the decision, would have picked me. He's a wonderful man and a wonderful father... but he couldn't do it alone and he admits that.

michaela0704 · November 2016

@JAGinMI this is something you can get generic forms to have on file or work with an attorney on... hospitals usually ask if you have one during the admittance process. For MH and I it was something that we had to discuss and come to some form of agreement as DH and I felt very differently with my first pregnancy. I felt that we could always have more children as I was young (26) and that leaving him with twins and family out of state would be insane... but at the same time I felt that if he was willing, able, and wanting to care for them in that type of situation how could I not choose to save 2 lives over my own. Twin factor probably had something to do with it and I was very shaken at the idea of choosing them over me but I also settled on it being the right choice. Don't stress though, I'm hopeful this will be a non-issue for all on this BMB.

lizerspitz · November 2016

@JAGinMI I agree its a little shocking that doctors don't bring this conversation up more often. There are real medical risks pregnant women face that are not rare enough to ignore (including car accidents). The more people who have these conversations, the better their families are when they actually have to approach these very scary scenarios.

zseirecarg · November 2016

This is my 1st pregnancy and I had not thought about this. Thinking about it now.

silliegirlie143 · November 2016

Our decision when I was pregnant with DD still stands: we can make or adopt more children, we cannot make another Mommy.
Also, he was terrified of the thought of being alone with the baby. I cannot fathom making the conscious decision to leave him to grieve and have a newborn at the same time.

NamelessAria · November 2016

If there was a binary choice between me and baby I'd choose baby. It's easier for me though as I have a strained relationship with most of my family and no living children. Not to mention that with RPL and infertility I don't have the backup of telling myself "I'm a young healthy woman and I'll absolutely be able to have more babies if something happens to this one." This could be my only shot, for all I know.

I'm not sure my husband would feel the same way about it that I do however.

Xath · November 2016

*loss mentioned*

Wow guys. There are a lot of cavalier assumptions being thrown around here.

I've lost a child. I had a loving son at the time. If there had been any way to trade my life for hers, I would have done it in less than a heartbeat. Yes, it would have been difficult for my husband and my surviving son (and now daughter). But they would manage, and they would have many opportunities to find their new wonderful in life. Given the chance, I'd certainly like to live a long life. But I've already had a wonderful one, I've had opportunities and experiences and if I got struck by lightning tomorrow I'd be satisfied that I've been blessed with a wonderful life. But my daughter Eleanor didn't have those opportunities, and it hurts immeasurably to know that she never will.

One of the only reasons I survived the death of my daughter (in addition to the fact that my son needed me) was knowing that there was absolutely nothing we could have done differently. If I had to add the guilt of choosing my life over hers, I may have survived physically but I would have been a shell of a person, and not the mother my son needed.

Those of you STMs who would currently choose to save your life over the life of your baby, before you sign anything binding, consider how you feel for your elder child(ren) and consider if you'd make the same decision if you had the opportunity to save them or yourself (without concern for your current pregnancy). Would you sacrifice your son or daughter's life to save yourself?

I grew up in a single parent house. I had a great childhood; my mom got married later on and I've loved my life. My aunts and uncles lost their mother at a young age; it was terrible, but they've survived and had great lives. My husband and I have already discussed what would happen if something happened to me. He'd eventually fall in love again and I know he could only love someone who would love and care for our children as her own. So as much as I want to watch my kids grow up, I know they would be ok; they would still have the chance to have wonderful lives of their own. And that's more than enough for me.

Xath · November 2016

Those of you saying "you could always have other babies" are (unwittingly I hope) wounding any parent who has lost a child, whether through stillbirth or after birth. That's a platitude that people tell you when you've lost a child as a sort of attempted comfort and it is an awful thing to say. Yes, if you are lucky enough to be blessed with another child (assuming whatever happened didn't take that ability away or you don't suffer from secondary IF) you will have another love in your life. But it is an "other" love. It in no way replaces the child you lose, nor does it fill the gaping wrenching wound in your heart. It simply increases your capacity to love. You will love your next child, but it doesn't minimize your loss.

silliegirlie143 · November 2016

I can read the hurt in recent comments. I can also read the judgement. I'm feeling hurt and defensive of my stance, as you've felt hurt and defensive of yours.

Maybe I come from a different perspective because I have lost my Mom and years later I still have a huge hole in my life. It, too, is a gaping wrenching wound (I borrowed Xath's words because they are a perfect description of this loss) that does not ever heal. Every time something happens in life the person I most want to share it with is no longer there.

There is no relationship on this Earth that even begins to fill that space of need for Mom that I have. While my Dad is happy and found another love, my relationship with her is that of friendship not a mother's love.

Since we are all shaped by our experiences I can see how some of you would chose the newborn's life over your own. Because of my own experiences with loss, my Mr and I make the best decisions for our family that we can. This is not a decision made lightly or without thought.

My hope for our entire group is that none of you experience this and that your living Moms have long, happy, healthy lives.

Now excuse me while I go cry in a corner

JAGinMI · November 2016

@Xath I 100% feel that me being here for my living children is more important than leaving my husband with 2 school-aged kids and a newborn, not to mention that I am the breadwinner and carry our insurance and will as long as I can. There is no argument you could give me to convince me that there is any other logical solution. I have no interest in comparing this to what I would do if I was in a situation to save myself or my living child - it is not the same, it's just not. My kids and my husband COULD be fine moving on, but that is not what anyone desires so if there is a choice, there is just no question what the answer is for our family. I would rather that my husband and I grieve over the loss of our baby for the rest of our lives than my husband and kids grieve the loss of me for the rest of their lives. The toll it would take on all of them cannot be understated, while I can accept the toll the loss of a baby would take on us.

Xath · November 2016

JAGinMI said:
The toll it would take on all of them cannot be understated, while I can accept the toll the loss of a baby would take on us.

No, you can't, unless you have been through it, and if you have I apologize. You may empathize and hypothesize but you cannot fathom that toll until you have experienced it.

@silliegirlie143 I'm so sorry for the loss of your mom. My loss of a parent was by that individual's choice, so I can't truly understand the pain you feel. My intention wasn't to judge you, but to share my experiences. I apologize; I was angry and emotional in the moment and it came through in the writing.

Obviously my dearest hope is that none of us have to make this choice. I just want to make you aware that for all that you can sit through now and logically plan for what might happen, everything can change in the moment. My husband thought much like you all before we lost our daughter; he thought it through with logic and reason and the past experiences we could muster and it was his preference to save me. (Fortunately it was not a decision we had to make). But then we lost Eleanor. Everything changed. And one of the reasons we got through it was because there was no one to blame. I can't imagine how we would have coped if one of us had made that choice.

This whole decision is a shitty one, no matter what you choose. I hope it never matters for you, that it never comes into play. I hope you never know what it is to have your child taken from you. But I know; I have experienced it, and I needed to warn you. Make your own choices; love your families, and do what is best for all of you.

JAGinMI · November 2016

Xath said:

JAGinMI said:
The toll it would take on all of them cannot be understated, while I can accept the toll the loss of a baby would take on us.

No, you can't, unless you have been through it, and if you have I apologize. You may empathize and hypothesize but you cannot fathom that toll until you have experienced it.

I didn't say I can understand, I said I can accept. I can accept the loss of a baby, no matter how hard it would be or how much it will hurt me. I cannot accept the idea of knowingly taking away my children's mother.

Mashunya425 · November 2016

I can't imagine what @NamelessAria has been through with the numerous losses, or what @Xath went through with the loss of a child. My sister-in-law has lost a toddler son, and I can't imagine her grief either. So I would never judge these individuals positions on such a question, as they have been through trauma that I have not experienced.

At the same time, I think it is unfair to dismiss the rest of the ladies' opinions here as "cavalier assumptions", @Xath. Yes, perhaps our decisions would change if we were ever faced with this choice (I hope no one has to make this choice). Or perhaps we deal with grief and loss differently, and therefore we would make the choice we outlined in this thread. Just as it is unfair to judge you for your stance since we have not been through a loss like you have, it is unfair for you to judge our stances because frankly, you don't know us. And there are many different people out there that make different decisions and deal with things differently.

merrylea · November 2016

This is such a sensitive subject, and at the end of the day, there is no right decision. I have lost a husband, my husband has lost a wife (we were both widowed when remarried.) Finding love again and getting remarried in no way minimizes the loss you feel, and the love that you feel for your departed spouse. I would equate it to having a second child after losing your first. Seeing things from my perspective, I would chose me over my child, and then my husband and I can grieve that child together.

Xath · November 2016

@Mashunya425 When I said cavalier assumptions, I was referring to things like "ultimately we are healthy and young and would be able to get pregnant again" and "I felt we could always have more children." Even things like "decision X would be easier for them to handle
than decision Y" are assumptions and they remain that way until they are experienced and can be compared, which we all hope never happens.

Many people who lose a child aren't able to conceive or carry to term again. It's just not something you should assume when making this sort of decision. (You in the general sense, not you specifically).

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