Trying to Get Pregnant
FrancesGrace630
member
Options
TWW Tuesday
FrancesGrace630
member
Month/cycle:
CD/DPO:
Timing:
Testing:
R/R/CS:
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption?
CD/DPO:
Timing:
Testing:
R/R/CS:
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption?
Re: TWW Tuesday
CD/DPO: 34/16
Timing: doesn't matter
Testing: nope
R/R/CS: Just waiting on AF to get here and do her thing.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Probably
ETA: Moving to WTO as today presented CD1. Peace out everyone and hope to not see you over there!
CD/DPO: 22/6
Timing: -5, -4, -3, -1, 0
Testing: Sunday
R/R/CS: My temps are right in line with my average. It's kind of cool. Also, my abs are sore. Which is definitely related to implantation and had nothing to do with the fact I worked out yesterday, haha.
GTKY: I definitely want to adopt if we can't conceive naturally. DH isn't so sure. I've been researching embryo adoption recently.
ETA chart
CD/DPO: 37/6
Timing: -1,0, +1
Testing: Not sure. Depends on how long I can keep from going BSC.
R/R/CS: This is my first real experience with the TWW (I don't ovulate on my own normally) and man is it brutal. Every little cramp or bloated feeling is analyzed. I seem to vacillate from feeling super hopeful to super hopeLESS. Ugh. I think they key, at least for me, is to take a step back from reading all of the pregnancy/TTC/parenting blogs, articles, shows etc etc., and stay busy.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? I haven't given this much serious thought - to be honest, I hope I never have to. And I think that alone is my answer - I think people who adopt should feel called to do it, whether or not they can have their own children. To date, I do not feel that call.
TTC Since: Nov. 2015
Dx: PCOS
Clomid + Ovidrel, Round I: BFN
Clomid + Ovidrel, Round II: BFN
Clomid+Ovidrel, Round III: BFP! 7/5/16
CD/DPO: 28/13
Timing: not great
Testing: BFN yesterday, thinking I'll hold out for AF now (which should be imminent)
R/R/CS: Actually really looking forward to my doctor's appt this afternoon. Excited to get set up with a new doctor and make a plan for the coming months.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Honestly, starting to think about it more and more. Still not sure it's for us, but keeping an open mind.
CD/DPO: 23/13
Timing: -4, -3, -1, +1
Testing: BFN today
R/R/CS: I tested today because I have an appointment with the RE this afternoon and I wanted to make sure I was not pregnant. I also took an OPK test and that was negative, but the CBAD gave me another high reading--my 5th day of high readings. I'm soooo nervous for my appointment today, but I'm looking forward to learning the next steps in the process.
GTKY - I've brought it up to DH, and he would be willing to adopt if we've exhausted all other options, including IVF.
TTC#1: October 2015
dx: PCOS & MFI
IUI #1 w/Femara + Ovidrel June 2016 ~ BFP
July 2016: Blighted Ovum
IUI #2 w/Femara + Ovidrel September 2016 ~BFN
IUI #3 w/Femara + Ovidrel October 2016 ~BFN
IUI #4 w/Femara + Ovidrel November 2016 ~BFN
IVF with ICSI January 2017 ~BFN
FET February 2017 ~BFN
IVF with ICSI March 2017 ~BFP--Twins Due 12/8/17
Team Blue X 2!
CD/DPO: 25/9
Timing: -1,0
Testing: BFN yesterday with a cheapie (was also testing way early but shut it).
R/R/CS: Partner has a stomach bug this morning, so the world is endingggggggggg.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? We would consider it. If making babies isn't in our cards, it would be far more likely that we would just move to China and spend our days travelling and exploring (partner lived in Beijing for a few years before we met and I'm slowly learning Mandarin). That's currently our 25 year plan, so that would just bump the timeline up a bit.
Me: 28 & Partner: 32 | Married 2014
BFP 7/29 EDD 4/11
100% to the "called to it" sentiment. It's not easy and it's not for everybody.
Me: 28 & Partner: 32 | Married 2014
BFP 7/29 EDD 4/11
CD/DPO: 21/7 (if O was accurate)
Timing: every day but O and since we aren't sure how accurate O was we've been going every other day since then.
Testing: I'm trying to hold out for 2 weeks but might test on Saturday with a cheapie if I can't wait.
R/R/CS: I've gotten myself off caffeine! It feels great. I stopped cold turkey last week and had headaches for about a week and today is my first day with no withdrawal symptoms!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? DH and I have talked about it. Honestly I love kids and feel like I would be just as good of a mother to an adopted kid as I would my own. However I'm not sure if we will go that route or focus on careers if we are unable to have kids. Since this is only our first month trying we haven't talked to much about it.
Married: October, 19, 2015
EDD 2/22/17
EDD 3/8/20
EDD 11/24/23
(Formerly Marriedhamstermom Feb ‘17)
CD/DPO: 22/4
Timing: -6 to +1 ED
Testing: Friday for drinking purposes, even though I'll only be 7DPO (better safe than sorry or just BSC?) and then ED after that because who am I kidding.
R/R/CS: Teacher Appreciation Week usually just means lots of carbs.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Sure! Part of the mythos of my life is that my parents struggled to get pregnant for six years before I was conceived. They had gone through the entire adoption process and, on the day they got the call that a baby was waiting for them, my mom also learned that she was pregnant with me. I always worried about what happened to that kid.
Month/cycle: 2/2
CD/DPO: 30/12
Timing: -2
Testing: If AF doesn't show in the next couple days, then 15 DPO.
R/R/CS: I had a huge drop (still above cover line though) in my temp this morning. Pretty sure AF is on its way. I'm kind of surprised at how upset I am. We always hope it happens immediately, I guess.
ETA: On a happy note, my DD is now 9 months old today! On a not-so-happy note, we have her check up today. She cries from the moment we walk in and doesn't calm down until she's back in the car. Not looking forward to the pedi and me yelling over her.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Me? Absolutely. DH? Nope.
Me: 25 | DH: 25
DD: Aug. 15
CD/DPO: 27/12
Timing: -4, -2
Testing: Nope.
R/R/CS: Sucks to hit 6 + 6. Will try to find the courage to call the doctor today... Our timing maybe wasn't amazing this month, but we have had at least good timing for the past 6 cycles, and GREAT timing for two of them, so... ya.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Definitely. DH and I actually want a big family and we know we are starting a bit late for that to be a realistic thing, (33/39), so we would totally adopt, possibly even if we do have our own kids. We also won't pursue IVF if it comes to that, so I'm glad he and I are both on the same page.
@beary67 Good luck today!! Please keep us updated! Don't be nervous/worried! It's a GREAT step! You'll be so relieved and happy you took it!
CD/DPO: 26/12ish
Timing: every third day
Testing: Thursday
R/R/CS: None today, I think. Just waiting to test. Hoping for a second line for my birthday on Thursday!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption?
We actually have slowly started the process. We always have wanted to adopt, we just assumed we would adopt after our biological kids were grown. Our plans are slowly rearranging. Even though this was always in the cards for us, we don't want it to seem like an adopted baby is a Bandaid Baby or a Plan B Baby. We want an adopted baby just as much as we want a biological one. That's why we are pursuing both routes simultaneously.
Diagnoses: RPL, Endometriosis, MFI (count, morph, DNI, DNAS, multiple bilateral subclinical varicoceles), low progesterone
Check out my Infertility blog
Check out my Infertility Instagram
BFP: 15 August 2015, loss confirmed 23 August 2015
BFP: 16 November 2015, loss confirmed 22 November 2015
BFP: 18 July 2016, loss confirmed same day
BFP: 04 March 2018, loss confirmed 23 March 2018
BFP: 12 June 2018, TWINS; D&C 06 July 2018
Met with OBGYN in January 2016
Me: all clear, H: OAT
November 2016: HSG = All Clear!
January 2017: H tested again, High DNA fragmentation and stainability
February 2017: Clomid + TI + Progesterone = BFN
March 2017: Clomid + HCG + IUI + Progesterone = SA/wash: zero count on attempt #1, <1,000 on attempt #2= BFN
Varicocele Embolization- 5 May 17
December 2017 SA: Zero improvement after embolization
January IVF- 25 retrieved, 11 mature, 8 fertilized, 3 frozen day fives (3AA, 3AA, 3AA), 1 frozen day 6 (5BB), 1 frozen day 7 (3CC)
Three PGS normal (3AA, 3AA, 5BB), one inconclusive (3AA)
FET #1: 27 February 2018, 3AA & 5BB, one stuck! BFP 04 March 2018.... Loss confirmed 23 March 2018
May 2018: SHG/SIS = all clear "beautiful uterus"
FET #2: 04 June 2018, 3AA PGS normal embryo, 3AA PGS hatching inconclusive embryo.
BFP: 12 June 2018, EDD 20 February 2019
Ultrasound, 25 June 2018: There are two!
Lost Baby A 02 July 2018
Baby B not growing, D&C 06 July 2018
Laparoscopy, hysteroscopy, chromotubation: 23 July 2018: blocked right tube, heavily inflamed, covered in endo. Removed right tube. Removed more endo from uterus, tubes, ovaries. Endo remains on bladder and bowel.
ER#2 ~Jan 2019
CD/DPO: 23/9
Timing: not the best. -1, 0 +3. We're usually an every day during FW... but we kind of failed
Testing: when I miss AF. Maybe a couple days after.
R/R/CS: I had such a crappy day at work yesterday. It was my birthday but no lunch break, just insanely busy. But I came home and my mom had dropped off flowers, my husband made an amazing dinner, and it just turned out to be really nice!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Absolutely. My mom actually put a son up for adoption before my sister and I came along.. so it's def close to my heart
CD/DPO: 15/3 per opk
Timing: fine
Testing: only if period doesn't come
R/R/CS: Not much. I've lurked but haven't had time to pay much the last couple days. Not sure why... glad I'm back!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Yes. Told H when I got my iud out that if it ever got to ivf, I'd rather adopt. He's fine with that. I would like to adopt a baby; I want to experience all those stages. But later if be happy adopting an older child as well.
I think it stems from my dad. His parents fostered and then adopted a little girl from birth to 2. His dad died about 4 months after the adoption was finalized (my dad was 8). His mom was now a single mother of 4. They took the little girl away. He never forgot her but was never allowed to know what happened to her.
CD/DPO: 15/4
Timing: -5, -2, -1, 0, +1
Testing: Not on my mind yet
R/R/CS: Not today! I love this low-stress part of the TWW!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Definitely. Adoption has always something my husband and I have been interested in if we have the financial means, whether or not we have biological children. We probably would just start the adoption process rather than IVF if it came to that. As others have mentioned, we both feel "called" to adoption.
@beary67 Good luck today! I will be thinking about you and rooting for you!
@sdswenson Glad your birthday turned out to be good
everyone deserves to be spoiled on their bday. I also believe no one should have to work on their bday! It should just be automatically counted as a personal day!
@KristaB FX for Bday luck! I am also hoping to get some bday luck this month by testing on DH's bday
Month/cycle: 3
CD/DPO: 19/7
Timing: -5,-1,0, +1
Testing: 10 DPO
R/R/CS: Still just waiting, trying not to drive myself crazy. Still can't seem t o get what DH said about this being our month out of my head but really he has no clue soo I probably should. DH comes home today from work after being gone for a week so hopefully he can distract me.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? DH and I have discussed adoption, we want to try for our own but if that isn't in the cards for us it is definitely something we would consider.
BFP #1 April 12, 2017 EDD December 19, 2017
CD/DPO: 29/13
Timing: good
Testing: BFN yesterday, now just waiting for AF
R/R/CS: I had been pretty depressed about this cycle and the prospect of potentially IUI next cycle. Good news came yesterday with DH's new job offer....our new insurance will cover 6 IUI cycles and 4 IVF cycles, along with all tests and monitoring. I feel like such a HUGE weight has been lifted. We now have options that won't require us to drain our bank account. We are going to do one more round of Clomid since our new insurance won't kick in until next month, and make an appt to do IUI in June if next cycle doesn't work out either.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Yes, we plan on adopting. If we are blessed with another pregnancy, that will be our last biological child. We would like to adopt our third when the older kids are in elementary school.
TTC#2 September 2015
DD #1 born July 2014
Clomid 50 mg x2 months- no ovulation
Clomid 100mg x 2 months- confirmed ovulation first month, BFN
CD/DPO: 32/9
Timing: Fine, I think.
Testing: Not yet.
R/R/CS: Not temping this cycle and not confirming O makes it really easy to not symptom-spot, I'm not even sure where I am in the cycle at this point.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? I would.
then 3 failed IUIs, and finally a successful IVF FET.
Due with #2 5/2/19 after HIO once in my FW,
because apparently that's how life works now. Team Blue!
Month/cycle: 3/3
CD/DPO: 31/7 or 8
Timing: meh. It sucked.
Testing: trying to hold out for the end of TWW
R/R/CS: this is my first experience with a longer cycle so of course I am SS except I have no symptoms to spot. Not even my usual PMS symptoms. Rude. How am I supposed to drive myself crazy for another week?!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? I've given it lots of thought and I really don't feel like it's right for us. I will ugly cry over adoption stories all day long because they are beyond beautiful and admire parents who adopt but it's so so hard that you really have to feel the call. I don't feel it.
Month/cycle: 9/9
CD/DPO: 17/2?
Timing: either -4, -1 or -2, O
Testing: Whenever my willpower gives out which normally happens to be around 10DPO.
R/R/CS: FF doesn't even know what to do with my chart.
**Chart stalk**
It looks like FF will change my crosshairs to tomorrow if I have another high temp in the morning. I'm concerned though because I've never had fertile CM after O, except for once the day after O. And I had a pretty decent amount on EWCM today. I also got a strong partial fern on my saliva microscope. Combined with how low my "post-O" temps are I guess I'm a little concerned that FF gave me CHs prematurely and I didn't really O. Although the advanced OPK, normal OPK, and everything else lined up nicely to indicate O.
Ugh I don't know. What do y'all think?
Here is my chart:
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Yes. My husband and I agreed before we got married that if we decided we wanted children (we were both a bit undecided at the time) and we weren't able to have children for whatever reason that we would adopt. We both put a lot of thought into it and discussed it a lot before coming to that agreement. On the especially hard TTC days where I feel like I'll never be a mom my husband will sometimes remind me of our agreement to comfort me. He'll tell me how, no matter what, I'll get to me a mom, whether it be through TTC naturally, fertility treatments or adoption. We may not have a child naturally. Our child may not be genetically ours. I may not give birth to him/her. But I'll be a mother.
TTC#1: January 2015- September 2016
Infertility, Recurrent Pregnancy Loss
Rainbow baby born June 6, 2017 ❤️
Baby #2 due June 12, 2018
@Mylitta That is an incredibly sad story!
TTC#1: January 2015- September 2016
Infertility, Recurrent Pregnancy Loss
Rainbow baby born June 6, 2017 ❤️
Baby #2 due June 12, 2018
CD/DPO: 20/3
Timing: -4, -3, 0
Testing: I have no idea. I O'd at CD17, which is my latest since charting. Assuming my LP holds at 10 or 11, this will be my longest cycle since going off HBC. Probably will test at 10DPO. Maybe. I seriously don't know.
R/R/CS: I'm happy to be in the TWW again! After Oing later than I thought, our timing isn't what I had hoped. Fortunately, OH was home for the weekend when I did O, and we were able to FWP on O day. So far I've just been trying to seduce him more in the FW since he doesn't really want to know when we're FWP. I'm cool with that plan since I don't want performance issues to potentially pop up. However, I think next cycle, which is Cycle 6, I will probably just have to lay it out for him and demand ED so that we can know we've done everything possible before getting help.
GTKY: I'm all for adoption. OH doesn't want to even think about it yet. He definitely wants to exhaust all other options first. I think he worries that he won't be able to love a child that isn't his. He has such a big heart, and I think he's capable of more than he realizes. I am one of those people who really wants a baby as opposed to an older child. In my heart I know that's selfish, but I'm such a baby person, and I want to enjoy that stage.
Beloved SS: born 12/2011
TTC my bio #1/our #2 since January 2016
**TW** June 2016 had CP **end TW**
August 2016 - dx with DOR
Somewhere in here received recommendation to do IVF with donor eggs, elected not to; OH dx with Low T
May 2017 - began freezing sperm
June 2017 - OH began treatment for Low T
July 2017 - began doing 1 IUI via a midwife and 1 at home insemination each cycle
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/6259ba
July 2018 - exhausted frozen sperm, officially NTNP since OH is probably shooting blanks
CD/DPO: 20/3
Timing: -3, -2, -1, O, +1
Testing: In a week. I told myself I was going to just wait until AF this month but I actually do better with the let down of a negative test before AF rather than just waiting on AF.
R/R/CS: Pretty quiet over here today. I've been researching doulas lately and I really like reading all the different philosophies and testimonials.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption?
I've thought about it but don't think it's for us. We're very likely going to be a one and done couple and I think I would have a really hard time if my only child wasn't related to me biologically. I have an immense amount of respect for those who adopt but DH and I know it isn't for us.
CD/DPO: 15/6
Timing: -2,
Testing: when AF is late.
R/R/CS:
I'm still not convinced I O'ed, but I just got super nauseated halfway through a meal so now the BSC is coming out. I was also literally just too lazy to temp this AM.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption?
Yes. We already have 2 DDs, and I wouldlike a 3rd biological child, but if we don't have one, I would not pursue adoption just based on whether or not we have another child. It is something I have always felt like I would do one day though.
CD/DPO: 27/11
Timing: -3,-1, +1, +2
Testing: afraid to get a BFN
R/R/CS: I was slightly nauseous all day yesterday, and it's continued today, I'm telling myself it's a stomach bug... Definitely a stomach bug... Temp is still up and cramps all they 2WW....
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Absolutely, especially if we can't have our own, I would adopt. There are so many children in need of a loving home
CD/DPO: 33/7
Timing: -5, -3, -2, O, +1
Testing: maybe Friday. I haven't completely decided yet.
R/R/CS: I've barely slept in the last two days. I have no idea what my deal is. I just can't fall asleep. Normally I sleep like it's my job, but the last two nights have been horrible. And I'm exhausted. Is it 5 pm yet?
GTKY: Absolutely. I want to adopt whether we are able to conceive a child ourselves or not. I don't think I'll go the IVF route, so if it comes to that, we might start the process to adopt sooner rather than later.
**TW**
Testing with RE October 2016
BFP 11/5/2016 ~ EDD 7/19/2016
TTC#1: January 2015- September 2016
Infertility, Recurrent Pregnancy Loss
Rainbow baby born June 6, 2017 ❤️
Baby #2 due June 12, 2018
Warning - long post ahead!
Month/cycle: 9/9
CD/DPO: 18/4
Timing: none
Testing: none
R/R/CS: I had my first RE appointment today and it was great!! I was SO nervous (and impatient - they were running super late), but when it finally got going, I felt I was in really capable hands and that things were FINALLY moving forward. All the information I went in with (so much thanks to you ladies!) matched up with what she had to say and she was completely comfortable with the idea of us moving straight to IVF if that's what we wanted to do. This group of REs has very high success rates and I think they are particularly used to treating women who are TTC for the first time later in life. That's the big city for you, I guess.
The good news is I didn't feel pressured to do any one thing. We discussed various options - just meds, IUI and IVF. As far as meds, she didn't think that would make much sense in my case since I don't have ovulation issues or anything where that would make enough of a difference. As far as IUI, I have been leaning away from it since the success rates each cycle is fairly low, it's still costly (especially if you do multiple cycles), and can still take quite a bit of time all in - which is time I don't really want to lose given my age and the fact that I want to have multiple children. In fact, she had me meet with her IVF consultant right after our appointment and we got ALL the details including the soonest date that I can start, which would be approximately 6/5. Crazy!!!
We also got the results of the blood work I had done a few weeks ago (to analyze FSH, E2, AMH levels). I was relieved to hear that everything was normal and in some cases even above average and that I had "very good" ovarian reserve. I will have an HSG done between CD5-10 of the next cycle to check if my fallopian tubes are open (which the RE said is good to do even if we elect to do IVF since having closed fallopian tubes can apparently have some negative effects on IVF success rate).
As for DH, he was able to give a sample for SA today and we will have the results by Friday. We also both got additional blood testing done, including for a spectrum of infections/STDs, insight into MCs (my mother had several, including one late stage - I haven't - but apparently maternal MCs could have some affect on ability to conceive?), and genetic testing. Obviously, once we get these results, we should know a bit more about what is going on. But if nothing obvious comes to light, it's possible that we are just in the 1/3 of T-TTC couples who have "unexplained infertility". Not too satisfying, but....we shall see.
That said, I'm super excited that things are moving forward and feel so much relief, but it is a TON of information that I need to process. Also, DH and I still need to regroup and think this through fully together (I had to go right to work after the appointment - though I haven't been able to do anything so far! LOL!). All in all, I'm thinking there's a good chance we may decide to go down this path and that it will start in pretty short order!
@beary67 and @sarah0985 - I can't wait to hear how your appointments went today! I hope they went well!
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? Yes, if DH and I could not have children on our own (including with assistance), I would consider adoption.
ETA some more info.
Married: May 2008
TTC #1 since August 2015
FET #1: November 4, 2016
BFP: November 13, 2016
EDD: July 25, 2017
CD/DPO: 24/9
Timing: Good. 3 fertile days.
Testing: I stupidly tested yesterday. Wont test again until maybe Thursday.
R/R/CS: I almost didn't even post today. I'm feeling endo pain and I just got SUPER down and pessimistic about it. trying trying trying to keep in mind this is just cycle 1 and I need to keep things in perspective.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? I would. H and I have already discussed it back when I started getting endo symptoms. If we can't do this naturally we will adopt.
Month/Cycle: 4/4
CD/DPO: 25/8 (estimated)
Timing: -4, -2, -1
Testing: 15dpo (maybe 13dpo for drinking purposes)
R/R/CS: It sort of hit me (again) this morning that at this very moment I could be pregnant. Like for real. An actual human life could be starting. It's overwhelming sometimes. But then I start getting really excited and have to stop thinking about it.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? I have not felt the calling to adopt. Deep down I feel confident I will get pregnant naturally. I might feel differently later.
Me: 32 | DH: 36
Married June 2005
1/2016 - TTC#1
4/2017 - Initial RE visit, Dx: Severe MFI (Varicocele, 14% motility, 3% progression, but normal count)
7/2017 - Stage 3 endometriosis discovered during laparoscopic removal of ovarian cyst
9/27/2017 - BFP at 10dpo (cycle 22), baby boy due June 9, 2018
Beloved SS: born 12/2011
TTC my bio #1/our #2 since January 2016
**TW** June 2016 had CP **end TW**
August 2016 - dx with DOR
Somewhere in here received recommendation to do IVF with donor eggs, elected not to; OH dx with Low T
May 2017 - began freezing sperm
June 2017 - OH began treatment for Low T
July 2017 - began doing 1 IUI via a midwife and 1 at home insemination each cycle
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/6259ba
July 2018 - exhausted frozen sperm, officially NTNP since OH is probably shooting blanks
Married: May 2008
TTC #1 since August 2015
FET #1: November 4, 2016
BFP: November 13, 2016
EDD: July 25, 2017
CD/DPO: 59/9
Timing: -4, -1, 0, +1
Testing: Tomorrow morning if I remember
R/R/CS: I just started reading Me Before You and I'm having way too much trouble putting it down until I can't keep my eyes open at night. I saw the preview for the movie and was hooked, and heard how wonderful the book was.
GTKY - Have you/would you ever consider adoption? It's not something DH and I ever talked about. We've talked about how both of our moms are adopted and how little they know about their birth family (until we uncovered a lot of information a few months ago on my mom's birth family - and found out she has twin sisters!) Anyways, as for adopting, probably not, however if we had never conceived our first and was ttc for a long time, it probably would have come up eventually.