Spinning off the genetic testing thread...

RedMar · February 2016

https://mommylivesclean.com/2014/07/19/ultrasounds-in-prenatal-care-are-they-safe/

https://chriskresser.com/natural-childbirth-iib-ultrasound-not-as-safe-as-commonly-thought/

https://sarahbuckley.com/ultrasound-scans-cause-for-concern

I just posted on the genetic testing thread and wanted to share these articles with all of you. I realize the one by Sarah Buckley is a bit dated, but a lot of the information related directly to my feelings of DS' false "diagnosis" of Spina Bifida.

Since his birth, I've talked to many other parents who went through the same situation as us during their pregnancies. They were lead all over the country having additional tests, only to find out months later their baby is fine.

It made me start to wonder if we are being used as money-makers in the medical industry. I remember looking through the hospital bills (thank God for insurance) and what they would've cost out of pocket. The numbers were astronomical. Pretty much all of that additional testing gave me one thing- extreme worry through the remainder of my pregnancy.

Fast forward to a few months ago, I started seeing a nutritionist who is firmly against ultrasounds. He had similar reasoning: not 100% conclusive and an additional way to bring money into a Dr.'s office.

I did have one ultrasound done so far to determine everything was progressing (I am PGAL), but didn't find myself feeling completely relieved when I left the office. I had another appointment last week and my OB offered another ultrasound, but I turned it down, saying to him the multiple sonograms last pregnancy made me so anxious I couldn't sleep or enjoy myself. He respected my wishes and cancelled the scan. I know the conversation will resurface come time for the genetic testing and I feel as though I'll have to refuse because of my past experiences.

I truly want to believe every doctor is there to help, but at what point do they draw the line of risking your anxiety with a non-conclusive test and making an extra buck?

This is not intended to cause a controversy, just sharing my thoughts and anxiety-ridden pregnancy with others. Any other mommas out there with similar experiences or of a false "diagnosis"?

eta- articles

crispy11 · February 2016

I am firm non-believer that doctors are using ultrasounds to make money.

RedMar · February 2016

They're $300 a pop at my Dr's office and they dish them out like candy (especially if insurance will cover them in full).

This was another article I found on keepsake U/S workshops and how they're banned in Connecticut:

https://fox6now.com/2015/02/17/its-a-booming-baby-business-but-are-3d4d-ultrasounds-really-worth-the-risk/

pilotswifey · February 2016

Yeah, sorry. None of your articles come from what I would call "respected" sources. Send me an article from legitimate medical professionals, and I'll think about it. Only one of these people is a doctor, and if I based all of my decisions off the ideas of one person, well....

Edited because of grammar.

mom2adoodle · February 2016

Sorry about your DS' false diagnosis

That sounds scary!!

fiorip · February 2016

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience but I don't think doctors are trying to make money from ultrasounds or genetic screenings. Its true some tests are not 100% conclusive, and that you can get a false diagnosis but medicine has come so far. It may cause you anxiety but it gives so many others peace of mind, it prepares so many people as well, it allows you to make a knowledgable decision. Have you looked into how many children have been saved due to ultrasound testing? How many in utero operations can be done and early detection of a treatable condition you can get from an ultrasound?

If you look back in history what medical professionals did 100 years ago, hell 50 years ago and what we know today, and without a doubt science is our friend.

crispy11 · February 2016

RedMar said:

They're $300 a pop at my Dr's office and they dish them out like candy (especially if insurance will cover them in full).

This was another article I found on keepsake U/S workshops and how they're banned in Connecticut:

https://fox6now.com/2015/02/17/its-a-booming-baby-business-but-are-3d4d-ultrasounds-really-worth-the-risk/

That article is specifically talking about ultrasounds outside of a doctor's office / hospital. It's completely different than screening ultrasounds.

RedMar · February 2016

I agree science can be very useful, but can cause more harm than good at times. Especially science that hasn't been 100% ruled out as being safe/conclusive. For my case, it was not helpful, but instead ruined half of my pregnancy.

tinypikachu · February 2016

I'm so sorry you had to go through a misdiagnosis with your son, that sounds like it made your pregnancy very hard and must have been terrible.

I must agree to disagree, though. I don't believe that doctors are "out to get us" as far as making money off of us to get ultrasounds. Most doctors will do 2-3 scans per pregnancy and those are highly recommended (like NT scan, anatomy scan) but [most] will discourage having extra unnecessary ultrasounds. I, for example, have been getting them every two weeks because of a previous loss. I was offered this afrer I started spotting and was inconsolable at the doctor's office. I have a history of depression and severe anxiety and my loss made me unravel. With my first loss, I only had the necessary ultrasounds and I know if would have taken a whole lot for me to convince them to give me more. My SIL, for example, goes to the same doc and she was so upset that they only do three ultrasounds for the entire pregnancy because she wanted to see baby and know the sex sooner and the doctor refused unless necessary.

This is only my experience but it seems to be pretty common. Regardless of whether a doctor gives out ultrasounds like candy or not, it doesn't mean they are out to simply make a quick buck because of it.

Unfortunately, very few things are guaranteed and there will always be a margin of error with any test you do. If your doctor was concerned about spina bifida and had you go through all that testing, it sounds like a responsible thing to do. How would you feel if they hadn't done that and you would have been left wondering?

If I decided to do genetic testing I would 100% want to know if my baby had some kind of chromosomal abnormality that might take his/her life in utero or shortly after birth. I, personally, would never terminate a pregnancy but I could be prepared and not completely taken aback if I suffer a late term loss or loss of a child. Genetic testing is controversial as a lot of people have polarizing opinions about it but it is a blessing for many, many families that have genetic issues and can prepare themselves for what could come.

rocky_star · February 2016

coming out of lurkdom for this one.. I find this really interesting. I live in Canada and we don't have to pay out of pocket for anything. I'm getting a dating ultrasound and an anatomy scan, my doctor doesn't even mention the IPS screening due to unnecessary worry that he believes it causes.

Unless there are concerns past 20 weeks we aren't offered any further ultrasounds. Not saying that genetic testing and ultrasounds are a cash grab but it's interesting when you compare the health care and what is offered.

RedMar · February 2016

@pilotswifey I thought the same as I read through Dr. Buckleys articles and thought they were biased. Then I stumbled across the one from Dr. Mastriola and Dr. Wasserman, more recent from 2015. And also for my Dr. (nutrionist) to share similar information without having known of my pregnancy history. There have been way too many coincidences, including my own struggle, that lead me to wonder, do we really know how safe/purposeful multiple sonograms are if they aren't offering answers/diagnosis?

Luckily, my son is very healthy (knocks on all wood). I wish I would've had this mindset from the get-go, but nothing other than the amnio could give me conclusive results while I was 16 weeks pregnant. I decided to refuse that procedure/science because I did not want to risk yet another miscarriage.

LizC216 · February 2016

I'm sorry, but what does a nutritionist know about ultrasounds? I didn't even think they were medical doctors.

RedMar · February 2016

@rocky_star - thanks for sharing, I was hoping other countries would add to the discussion. It'd be interesting to see what would happen to the multiple testing procedures if healthcare was free to Americans. I highly doubt my OB would order the same amount of ultrasounds if that was the case.

618mom22boys · February 2016

My doc doesn't charge for ultrasounds. They even offer a free 3D one at 32 weeks.

jennlynn777 · February 2016

@RedMar I would not put it past the medical field to use genetic testing to make extra money. After all, I do work in the medical field so I do know what I'm talking about. And I'll just leave that alone. Remember the Ebola outbreak last year? Everybody went in a frenzy buying face masks and suits. The CDC warned everybody to get vaccinated. MONEY MAKER people. Where did this deadly virus go?? Oh hey they just so happen to find the cure and cured them all! LOL ok! Seriously though we need to learn to think for ourselves instead of relying souly on what we have been taught to believe. That goes for genetic testing. Is it hard to believe it can make extra money? Absolutely not. No one is saying genetic testing is bad, but unless you are aware of some genetic disorder your baby could be prone to then it just shouldn't be offered. Just my opinion peeps.

yellowrose314 · February 2016

@jennlynn777 You should read Alan Cassel's collective works, "Selling Sickness" and "Seeking Sickness". Good reads about the commercialism of the health industry. And it's not all "big pharma" conspiracy crap. It's all backed up by great sources. He's a health policy analyst from the University of Victoria in BC, Canada. I think you can get them on Amazon

618mom22boys · February 2016

Also wanted to add had I not had more than one U/S during my last two pregnancies my Oligohydramnios and IUGR might not have been caught with my last two pregnancies. Which I am glad it was because it could have ended very badly had they not caught it. And with my 1st pregnancy they found an echogenic bowel which led to my CMV boy being born. Again sooo glad they caught that so we had some sort of idea that something was not right. They were prepared when he was born for something to be wrong.

wlux · February 2016

There are easier career paths to take if people want to just make money. Medicine is many times a thankless job and doctors are an easy target.

ducks6 · February 2016

The WHO suggests pregnant women with a healthy pregnancy should only get 1-2 ultrasounds for the entire pregnancy. Sometimes there is a reason a doctor would want to monitor more closely. However, I think that doctors who routinely perform them for every patient at every visit are exposing their patients to unnecessary risks (remembering that unnecessary worry is a recognized risk of too much testing).

CoffeeBeanFiend91 · February 2016

I'm sorry you had a scary experience but you lost me at nutritionist is against ultrasounds ...

eboyd83 · February 2016

@rocky_star One thing I have gotten from my pregnancies is that I find it very interesting to learn about the differences in the healthcare systems between Canada and the US. The people I know if "real life" all adamantly think we have it better here in the US. But the Canadian people I have met in "online life" seems to like the way they have it.

stillcozy · February 2016

*lurking from July*
there are conditions where ultrasound should 100% be used such as placenta previa and just denying one because you think you are making money for pharmacology may be a bit misguided. Op I'm very sorry you had a rough pregnancy before and misdiagnosis but please other FTM talk to your dr's or providers and have a honest conversation with them about this instead of non scientific studies.

yellowrose314 · February 2016

Speaking as a Canadian, I'm rather fond of our health care system. But it's not perfect.

RedMar · February 2016

Thank you all for your inputs. @Lindsayleigh1989I also had placenta previa, but in my eyes it was detected way too early (as it is for many other women) and again made me anxious, leading me to prepare for a c-section. After 15 weeks of worry, I found out that it had moved naturally (as it usually does for most pregnancies). I was not aware until after the fact (of unnecessary anxiety) that 90% of placental previa cases in early pregnancy, when mine was detected, resolve on their own.

RedMar · February 2016

I understand what you're saying as far as a nutritionist not having the same medical rapport, but it's been way too coincidental hearing the same stories from multiple sources from a variety of angles. As mentioned before, I know others who went through the same unnecessary struggle as me.

I strongly believe in my OB and that he's extremely knowledgable in what he does. I also have much more respect for him since he understood why I wanted to decline my previous ultrasound due to misdiagnosis in the past. I'm not throwing him under the bus, but rather the industry and how it's more of a business here in the US that thrives off fear and the unknown.

I'm sharing this with all of you as it was daunting being a PGAL, FTM going through all of these "harmful possibilities" when I really just wanted to enjoy my growing belly to the fullest. Hopefully this time around I won't feel as robbed from my experience.

backoffunicorn · February 2016

jennlynn777 said:

@RedMar I would not put it past the medical field to use genetic testing to make extra money. After all, I do work in the medical field so I do know what I'm talking about. And I'll just leave that alone. Remember the Ebola outbreak last year? Everybody went in a frenzy buying face masks and suits. The CDC warned everybody to get vaccinated. MONEY MAKER people. Where did this deadly virus go?? Oh hey they just so happen to find the cure and cured them all! LOL ok! Seriously though we need to learn to think for ourselves instead of relying souly on what we have been taught to believe. That goes for genetic testing. Is it hard to believe it can make extra money? Absolutely not. No one is saying genetic testing is bad, but unless you are aware of some genetic disorder your baby could be prone to then it just shouldn't be offered. Just my opinion peeps.

There was a vaccine for Ebola? I could've sworn all that stuff never made it out of testing phase.

I also was warned I might have placenta previa is at my a/s. Luckily it did move and I think my u/s was around 30 wks when they determined it moved. It gave me no anxiety, if anything it gave me reassurance that my doctor was looking out for my best interest. I'd rather know and schedule a c-section if there is going to be something in a vaginal birth that is a danger to me and my child. Plus, I have my DD at home this time. I don't want to risk my life just cause I'm scared of a false diagnosis during an u/s.

RedMar · February 2016

@backoffunicorn I would definitely want to know about placental previa, but later on when it's more definitive. No need to know about it during the 2nd tri.

fiorip · February 2016

@RedMar my younger brother was born via emergency c section at 25 weeks, my mother had placenta previa. She started bleeding at 22 weeks because she lost her mucus plug and her cervix was open, they performed a cerclage and she was in bed rest until 25 weeks when she went into labor. Because of the doctors being aware early of her condition they were prepared. My brother is 25 years old.

RedMar · February 2016

@fioripI'm glad your mother and brother are ok!! How scary!! As stated before, I believe there are necessary means for U/S, but I also believe they are given out freely to women who are not high risk. For me personally (at 30 years old and healthy), it was not necessary to have over a dozen inconclusive sonograms that did more harm than good to my scarred PGAL brain. I was naive and a FTM who didn't know any different, just that I wanted to have my rainbow baby so bad.

Silver lining is I'm very well-read on Spina Bifida and other neural tube defects and feel as though I could jump any hurdle this time around.

jennlynn777 · February 2016

@backoffunicorn no they didn't have a vaccine but they were telling people they had one in the works and that when they became available everybody should get one. Same thing they did with the Flu vaccine. What did happen was they found out they could use the blood from the survivors who were now immune to the virus and inject that into those who had been infected. After all that was discovered the Ebola scare just disappeared.....

thebigoaktree · February 2016

Lurking from July: as a ftm and not high risk, I would like to know where these offices are that are handing out u/s's like candy. I've gotten one and only because I had a nice genetics counselor who saw how stressed I was because I wouldn't have gotten one till 20 weeks. My mother who had me more than 29 years ago told me that was the norm back then too. It sounds like you had one bad experience and have a biast attitude, I fell bad for you op about such a bad experience but please don't use articles that are .coms to back up claims. Anyone can purchase a .com.

RedMar · February 2016

@thebigoaktree - yes, back in the day, that was the norm. The transvaginal ultrasound (for the first tri) wasn't regularly used until the late 80s. With "better equipment" and elective tests, ultrasounds are conducted more frequent nowadays. Some times for the good, but with my case it was not to my benefit to continue to hear "well we can't rule out a neural tube defect, let's see you again in a couple weeks". And this would leave me hanging, at the edge of my seat for the next 14 days. I appreciate your empathy?, but I'm not sure (and hope you never experience) you know what an unsettling feeling that is.
As I'm sure you know, you can also go to offsite labs and have additional scans done (mainly out of pocket and no consent is needed) because it's become a market driven by the unknown. I was tempted to go to one of these labs for a definitive answer, but at that point in my frustration, I didn't want to be discouraged again (and have to pay for it). I may be biased considering my "experience", but I know I'm not the only one who's been through this on-going hell of uncertainty.

jennlynn777 · February 2016

@thebigoaktree

75% or 3 out of 4 pregnancy are low risk pregnancies but the rate of ultrasounds has gone up by 90% showing that the average pregnancy gets atleast 5 ultrasounds. My mother was lucky to get the one she got back in the 80's. There is no way 5 was the norm back then.

thebigoaktree · February 2016

I would like to see where you're getting your facts, because every office I called before I found my doctors office only does one. I more than likely won't have your experience redmar because I went with a harmony test( which is not a screening but is 99% accurate blood work), and didn't have scare tactic Drs, also if you were never fully comfortable why did you never get a second opinion?The issue I have is the lack of facts and going off personal experience while giving ftm's the wrong information. I would suggest everyone speak to their own doctors and then make a choice, and if you're still concerned speak to a specialist. U/s are also dictated by your insurance and that's the amount you receive unless you pay out of pocket. The whole wanting to enjoy pregnancy instead of being a little prepared is a rather silly argument. I would like to know if my baby has a form of spina bifida and how serious it is, being prepared doesn't make anyone else less of mother.

GoogleMD · February 2016

jennlynn777 said:

@RedMar I would not put it past the medical field to use genetic testing to make extra money. After all, I do work in the medical field so I do know what I'm talking about. And I'll just leave that alone. Remember the Ebola outbreak last year? Everybody went in a frenzy buying face masks and suits. The CDC warned everybody to get vaccinated. MONEY MAKER people. Where did this deadly virus go?? Oh hey they just so happen to find the cure and cured them all! LOL ok! Seriously though we need to learn to think for ourselves instead of relying souly on what we have been taught to believe. That goes for genetic testing. Is it hard to believe it can make extra money? Absolutely not. No one is saying genetic testing is bad, but unless you are aware of some genetic disorder your baby could be prone to then it just shouldn't be offered. Just my opinion peeps.

If that is the case you seem incredibly ignorant.
Doctors and pharmaceutical companies make essentially no profit on vaccination, and on some even lose money. There is no vaccination for ebola that has be been approved by the FDA, though there are several different treatments in production. Pharmaceutical companies allowed their drugs in productions to be used in "compassionate treatment", for a few people in States, and UK. Ebola did not magically go away, several relief organizations went to those countries to help contain the issues, educate, and properly dispose of the deceased.
(After all, I work in "Big Pharma" and actually do know what I'm talking about.)

I think the significant amount of testing found in the United States healthcare, particularly obstetrics is in part due to the risks each doctor takes on with each patient. OBGYN has one of the highest rates of malpractice cases, many of which are unfortunate cases, at no fault of the physician. So I can understand why so many precautions are taken, and so much testing is offered. They want to detect any possible issues, and frankly protect themselves, and their livelihood in case of a poor outcome.

ETA: Lurking from N15

fiorip · February 2016

GoogleMD said:

jennlynn777 said:

@RedMar I would not put it past the medical field to use genetic testing to make extra money. After all, I do work in the medical field so I do know what I'm talking about. And I'll just leave that alone. Remember the Ebola outbreak last year? Everybody went in a frenzy buying face masks and suits. The CDC warned everybody to get vaccinated. MONEY MAKER people. Where did this deadly virus go?? Oh hey they just so happen to find the cure and cured them all! LOL ok! Seriously though we need to learn to think for ourselves instead of relying souly on what we have been taught to believe. That goes for genetic testing. Is it hard to believe it can make extra money? Absolutely not. No one is saying genetic testing is bad, but unless you are aware of some genetic disorder your baby could be prone to then it just shouldn't be offered. Just my opinion peeps.

If that is the case you seem incredibly ignorant.
Doctors and pharmaceutical companies make essentially no profit on vaccination, and on some even lose money. There is no vaccination for ebola that has be been approved by the FDA, though there are several different treatments in production. Pharmaceutical companies allowed their drugs in productions to be used in "compassionate treatment", for a few people in States, and UK. Ebola did not magically go away, several relief organizations went to those countries to help contain the issues, educate, and properly dispose of the deceased.
(After all, I work in "Big Pharma" and actually do know what I'm talking about.)

I think the significant amount of testing found in the United States healthcare, particularly obstetrics is in part due to the risks each doctor takes on with each patient. OBGYN has one of the highest rates of malpractice cases, many of which are unfortunate cases, at no fault of the physician. So I can understand why so many precautions are taken, and so much testing is offered. They want to detect any possible issues, and frankly protect themselves, and their livelihood in case of a poor outcome.

ETA: Lurking from N15

Thank you for lurking, you are awesome!

pizzaandwine · February 2016

In France maternity care is 100% covered by the state, and everyone is given three ultrasounds. The NT one around 11-14 weeks, the anatomy scan (NOT done before 22 weeks because they say the brain isn't developed enough before that) and one at around 37 weeks. Those are absolutely not done to make money, and in fact are considered the best care for pregnant women. Since the state is paying, they would not do them unless they considered them necessary for the best outcomes.

I went to a private doctor, who charged more than the state "price," so I paid out of pocket for part of each visit. He had an ultrasound machine in the office and did one at each visit. It cost the same to see him whether he did it or not and I think it was just a quick look (maybe more for me than for him) to see that everything looked good.

I will get genetic testing this pregnancy, whether insurance covers it or not.

jennlynn777 · February 2016

@GoogleMD says the person with the user name GoogleMD. LOL First off you should consider reading my later post where I did discuss how they contained it in the US and it had nothing to do with a vaccine as I also mentioned in my later post. And if you do work in a "Big Pharma" as you suggest then I can also see how you would say that no one profits from vaccines. At the very least the Shareholders are profiting from these vaccines. But hey you are probably the same person who believes we aren't over medicating our population or that all drugs name brand or not are created equal right?? I get it. Protect your seat.

cassloumy · February 2016

@RedMar I'm really sorry you had to go through all that, but I think you keep hitting the nail on the head when you say "coincidence." You had a terrible thing happen to you, but it does not sound like anyone was actually out to hurt you. Again, I am truly sorry that it happened. If it were me I would be an emotional wreck! Still, your OB is much more knowledgable on the subject than any other type of doctor or specialist.

This is outside the range of what a nutritionist should be helping you with (which, btw, literally anyone can call themselves a nutritionist- it's registered dietician that takes work and certification to earn. Your nutritionist may be fantastic at what she or he does, and may be a dietician. I just wanted to put that distinction out there). Normally I would agree with everyone who says to discuss this with your OB, but without trust in the obstetrics field I don't think you'll be able to feel much reassurance from any OB. Still, you have been through a lot with your previous pregnancy, and you might find it beneficial to seek some short-term (or however long you prefer) counseling to buoy you through this happy time since it is so reminiscent of the past distress you were strong enough to endure. Counseling has had a bit of a stigma, but in my experience it's truly wonderful just to sit down with someone who wants to listen to you and all of your worries and help you get yourself feeling better.

Just my two-cents. I hope this pregnancy is a wonderfully happy one for you!

stillcozy · February 2016

jennlynn777 said:

@GoogleMD says the person with the user name GoogleMD. LOL First off you should consider reading my later post where I did discuss how they contained it in the US and it had nothing to do with a vaccine as I also mentioned in my later post. And if you do work in a "Big Pharma" as you suggest then I can also see how you would say that no one profits from vaccines. At the very least the Shareholders are profiting from these vaccines. But hey you are probably the same person who believes we aren't over medicating our population or that all drugs name brand or not are created equal right?? I get it. Protect your seat.

Your post has you coming off very poorly maybe take it down a notch.

thebigoaktree · February 2016

Lindsayleigh1989 said:

jennlynn777 said:

@GoogleMD says the person with the user name GoogleMD. LOL First off you should consider reading my later post where I did discuss how they contained it in the US and it had nothing to do with a vaccine as I also mentioned in my later post. And if you do work in a "Big Pharma" as you suggest then I can also see how you would say that no one profits from vaccines. At the very least the Shareholders are profiting from these vaccines. But hey you are probably the same person who believes we aren't over medicating our population or that all drugs name brand or not are created equal right?? I get it. Protect your seat.

Your post has you coming off very poorly maybe take it down a notch.

She's just making an inductive argument. Also, googlemd's screen name is witty and you making a sarcastic comment about it just shows how lacking your argument is. I've yet to see any facts that give you any soapboxes to stand on.

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Spinning off the genetic testing thread...

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