Everyone is welcome to their own reaction, but I view it as pretty silly for any group to view invoking a trait as disrespectful to their embodiment of that trait. Particularly since PPs' association seems to be with the "Stolen Valor" movement rather than military service itself. I think I'm allowed to say this because I was enlisted myself.
This. I'm enlisted now, my husband is a vet, and I still think of the actual trait. One does not need to have a certain occupation to possess certain qualities; ordinary people are more than capable of acts of valor.
However, how will a name like Valor make a boy feel when he goes through that skinny, awkward, pimply, wimpy stage that so many boys go through? What if (no offense OP, just making an example) he turns out to be a total piece of shit and spends his life in and out of prison and crack houses? His name would literally be a joke. A name like that is a lot of responsibility to saddle on a baby and says to me that you're trying to define who your kid will be; I, for one, want to encourage my daughter to grow to be exactly who she is without stunting her with any more of my expectations than is unavoidable.
Oh yeah.. there was this girl in my high school named Chastity. And she was really skanky for somebody with that name. And the thing was? She wasn't even THAT skanky. But since her name was Chastity, basically anything falling even remotely into the lap of normal teenage sexuality looked skanky on her.
It's like naming a kid Ghandi. Even a hint of not living up to the name and suddenly, the kid is made a huge example of. It's not fair.
Everyone is welcome to their own reaction, but I view it as pretty silly for any group to view invoking a trait as disrespectful to their embodiment of that trait. Particularly since PPs' association seems to be with the "Stolen Valor" movement rather than military service itself. I think I'm allowed to say this because I was enlisted myself.
This. I'm enlisted now, my husband is a vet, and I still think of the actual trait. One does not need to have a certain occupation to possess certain qualities; ordinary people are more than capable of acts of valor.
However, how will a name like Valor make a boy feel when he goes through that skinny, awkward, pimply, wimpy stage that so many boys go through? What if (no offense OP, just making an example) he turns out to be a total piece of shit and spends his life in and out of prison and crack houses? His name would literally be a joke. A name like that is a lot of responsibility to saddle on a baby and says to me that you're trying to define who your kid will be; I, for one, want to encourage my daughter to grow to be exactly who she is without stunting her with any more of my expectations than is unavoidable.
I totally am picking up what your laying down...
But... Your question: "how will the name valor make a boy feel if he is in an awkward stage"... Same way a girl named Grace would feel?
And I'm definitely not determining my child's name based on the fear that he *might* end up in jail. If he ends up in jail- he deserves the embarrassment of having a noble name and it literally being a joke!
I absolutely agree with your last sentence though- definitely weighing on this name!
Yeah because nobody has ever been put in jail for absolutely bogus reasons. Especially in the USA.
I kind of think that if he winds up in jail, JAIL is the punishment for winding up in jail. Why add an ironic name to the mix? And as his mother, I promise you, you won't feel this way if some sort of unfortunate circumstances befall your kid. At least... i hope not... Every kid deserves a name they can always look to for dignity. Not "And bonus! If he screws up, his name will make him look like a douche!" That's not how to name your kid. There are tons of ways to make your kid feel like he's being a douche when he acts like one. His name is NOT one of those ways. It would be like nicknaming a kid Hitler because he made a racist comment that one time.. Not a good self esteem move..
Again, if you love the name, go for it. That's what counts. But.. you know that statement chilled me a little. Not sure if you're a FTM or you already have kids but I just had my first in December. And it's weird.. you know every kid feels like MY KID. I'm pretty protective of little people in a way i never was before and so maybe you meant the statement as a joke - and if so, i get it.. but it made me sad to think you were serious.
@CharmBombExplosion "Trying to hard to be cool" names are right up my alley. Being a Katherine (Katie) my whole life, I would rather "try to be cool" naming my kids than "try to be traditional or normal"
There are subtler ways of doing this though. If I see a parent with a kid named Echo and a parent with a kid named Monty, I would immediately see Monty as more unique and see Monty's parents as likely more creative because they've found a quirky way of working within the system (the same system that will be looking over your child's resume someday). See, trying to be weird is the new black. So you have to do it subtly or you're just like everyone else. My kid has a hipster name. She is named after my great grandmother who had the same weird name, Olive. I love her name but I am well aware that people hear it and think "omg.. One of THOSE 'I have to be different' people" who are, ironically, a dime a dozen. Because being weird is super mainstream right now. So you have to look like you're not trying to do it.
Let's lay it out for the sake of transparency. Nobody wants to look like they're trying too hard. That's all.
That being said, I'm not totally hating on the name. i don't like it. But I don't hate it. It's just... It sounds like the name of a Disney prince. And I hate Disney.
I LOVE Olive!
Thank you I honestly do too. We had other names chosen and honestly, I liked them better. But we promised ourselves to give family names a spin before choosing anything else. Our LN is Yu and if you say Olive Yu quickly... well let's leave it at my husband realizing that "Olive Yu" is hilarious. Once he figured that out, he refused to discuss anything else. Plus, she'll fit right in if she decides to move back to her ancestral Hong Kong. HK girls all choose really weird English names. We've met a Happy. A Birthday. A Moon Princess. A Silly. We figured Olive would help her blend in. She also has a Chinese middle name.
I like it... not as much as I like Titan, but it's different!! I just wouldn't use it bc I wouldn't want it shortened to "Val" like the girl name... however people have been commenting how Titan could be shortened to "tit" so what the heck. lol. Titus could also be shortened to "tit," but no one seems to mention that
I think that you would be doing your child a great diservice by choosing this name for him. I don't see it as disrespect towards the military or anything like that, I just really don't feel like it's a good name for a child. I typically don't comment on posts to say I don't like the name that someone has picked out because I don't want to hurt their feelings just because I have a difference in taste, I iust really don't think this is something he'll look back on and say wow thanks mom!
Everyone is welcome to their own reaction, but I view it as pretty silly for any group to view invoking a trait as disrespectful to their embodiment of that trait. Particularly since PPs' association seems to be with the "Stolen Valor" movement rather than military service itself. I think I'm allowed to say this because I was enlisted myself.
This. I'm enlisted now, my husband is a vet, and I still think of the actual trait. One does not need to have a certain occupation to possess certain qualities; ordinary people are more than capable of acts of valor.
However, how will a name like Valor make a boy feel when he goes through that skinny, awkward, pimply, wimpy stage that so many boys go through? What if (no offense OP, just making an example) he turns out to be a total piece of shit and spends his life in and out of prison and crack houses? His name would literally be a joke. A name like that is a lot of responsibility to saddle on a baby and says to me that you're trying to define who your kid will be; I, for one, want to encourage my daughter to grow to be exactly who she is without stunting her with any more of my expectations than is unavoidable.
I totally am picking up what your laying down...
But... Your question: "how will the name valor make a boy feel if he is in an awkward stage"... Same way a girl named Grace would feel?
And I'm definitely not determining my child's name based on the fear that he *might* end up in jail. If he ends up in jail- he deserves the embarrassment of having a noble name and it literally being a joke!
I absolutely agree with your last sentence though- definitely weighing on this name!
Yeah because nobody has ever been put in jail for absolutely bogus reasons. Especially in the USA.
I kind of think that if he winds up in jail, JAIL is the punishment for winding up in jail. Why add an ironic name to the mix? And as his mother, I promise you, you won't feel this way if some sort of unfortunate circumstances befall your kid. At least... i hope not... Every kid deserves a name they can always look to for dignity. Not "And bonus! If he screws up, his name will make him look like a douche!" That's not how to name your kid. There are tons of ways to make your kid feel like he's being a douche when he acts like one. His name is NOT one of those ways. It would be like nicknaming a kid Hitler because he made a racist comment that one time.. Not a good self esteem move..
Again, if you love the name, go for it. That's what counts. But.. you know that statement chilled me a little. Not sure if you're a FTM or you already have kids but I just had my first in December. And it's weird.. you know every kid feels like MY KID. I'm pretty protective of little people in a way i never was before and so maybe you meant the statement as a joke - and if so, i get it.. but it made me sad to think you were serious.
Hahaha! @groovylocks I am sorry I am laughing but I can't believe I am being confronted about making sure my kid's name is good enough for a jail inmate so as I don't embarrass him! Is this a real thing people consider when naming!? This is my third child but if this is a REAL rule...wow I give up.
I wonder if the people that consider "Noah" think: "hmmm if he becomes a lawyer, sounds good...if he becomes a baseball player, sound good...if he works at an icecream shop, sounds good....SHOOT honey..."Noah" sounds HORRIBLE for a criminal-he will feel like a douche in the jail cafeteria because his name represents an admirable, faithful biblical character. We surely don't want our criminal son's name to shatter his somehow-still-in-tact-dignity! Maybe Blaze is more fitting...or Rebel...hmmm."
@babyweber3 that's exactly why I avoided names with double associations. DH loves the name Dawn and, despite it being my favorite time of day, I nixed it because for all I know something about her personality will be very dark. It would be the ultimate cosmic joke, so we're going more traditional. I'm also 90 at heart and DH nixed Hazel and Gertrude, so there's that.
I guess if nothing else, kids can legally change their names at 18. Maybe my Elena will want to be a Feather and your Valor will want to be a Noah!
I just don't like it. Sounds like 'trying to hard' to me. And trying too hard always comes off a little sad, like in an 'oh.. sweetie.. no' kind of way.
Me: 32 DH: 33 Married: October 2015 TTC #1: October 2015 EDD #1: June/July 2017
Everyone is welcome to their own reaction, but I view it as pretty silly for any group to view invoking a trait as disrespectful to their embodiment of that trait.
It's not "silly." Cultural appropriation is an issue. The point about Cohen as a first name is a great example. It's silly to assume a whole "group" will share one collective opinion, though. Maybe some service(wo)men won't be offended by Valor, and some will. Same with Jewish folks re: Cohen.
I don't like it, but I'm not angry about either. I would keep looking though. I don't think it sounds nice as a name.
Also, just to clarify @cupkatie4 . I was the one who mentioned Titus in the other thread. But I also don't think being able to shorten Titan to tit is the "problem" with the name (Its just nms and I think it seems more like a big, or ironically small, dogs name). I'm sure those who find the tit thing to be a problem with Titan would also feel the same way about Titus, for what it's worth.
@virginiaunicorn11 I don't follow how using the term valor could be viewed as "cultural appropriation" from the military. I don't think they have a lock on that. I wasn't referring to the Cohen situation, which seems different but I'm not particularly familiar with. I'm sticking with my silly.
Everyone is welcome to their own reaction, but I view it as pretty silly for any group to view invoking a trait as disrespectful to their embodiment of that trait.
It's not "silly." Cultural appropriation is an issue. The point about Cohen as a first name is a great example. It's silly to assume a whole "group" will share one collective opinion, though. Maybe some service(wo)men won't be offended by Valor, and some will. Same with Jewish folks re: Cohen.
There is a HUGE difference between naming a baby Cohen, which is culturally VERY significant - to the religion as a whole. I would not name my child God, though I myself do not practice Christianity. Naming my child God would be a slap in the face of a practicing Christian. Therefore, Cohen is offensive.
Valor, however, is a trait not traditionally associated with JUST the military. Stolen Valor is a relatively new concept, and therefore not even close to being in the same league as Cohen. Stolen Valor is also a negative concept, whereas Cohen is an honored tradition. Also, after working in the military community, I can say with certainty that very, very few military personnel (that I have ever met) think of themselves as valorous. Those that do are huge douchebags. The majority go to work, do their jobs, and go home. Yes, sometimes the job asks more of them than other careers might, but they knew that possibility before joining and decided that the benefits outweighed the risks.
Cultural appropriation IS an issue; however, it is really not applicable in this situation.
I like it... not as much as I like Titan, but it's different!! I just wouldn't use it bc I wouldn't want it shortened to "Val" like the girl name... however people have been commenting how Titan could be shortened to "tit" so what the heck. lol. Titus could also be shortened to "tit," but no one seems to mention that
Ooh Titus. It was my choice but dh said "tight ass" and we abandoned it. We wound up having a little girl anyway.
Read Genesis, it seems like a lot of earlier names that are now respected as legit started as words from a language. Like naming your son Laughter (Isaac) because you were hilariously old when he was born.
First, Yitzhak (the original Hebrew form of Isaac) does not mean "laughter". It translates as "He (meaning God) laughed", as in God played a joke on Sarah by giving her a child in her old age. Yitzhak was not a stand alone word in ancient Hebrew. A lot of biblical names are like that - phrases that were compressed into a single name. Yonatan (Jonathan) is formed from the phrase meaning "God has given" not the word for "gift". That was the naming convention in that culture and no one thought it unusual, as opposed to our current culture, where making a new name out of a phrase like that would be seen as odd.
There are of course lots of names in lots of languages that are single words that were at one point used or still are used in that language. What makes them "names" is that they have a history of being used as such by a lot of people over a long period of time. It's all about perception. People can hear Rose, Pearl, April, and Grace and think "name" and "human being" and not just flower, gem stone, calendar month, and character trait. They can separate any associations they have with the word from the person who has that name. Like a PP said, Grace is so common a name that a woman with that name is not immediately expected to be graceful or judged for not being so. Rose is a human. Chrysenthemum is a flower.
Now you are right that each of those names at some point was just a word that was associated only with a flower, gem stone, etc and not a human. You are right that over time Apple, Blue, North, and Valor could also become common names that no one would blink at. The issues with that argument are that
1) For that to happen, they would have to become very popular/common at some point so that the associations in people's minds change. Popularity seems to be the very thing that parents naming their kid Blue are trying to avoid.
2) Until/unless they become popular, people will continue to associate those words mainly/only with fruit, color, cardinal direction and character trait and not a human.
So if you want to be at the forefront of turning a word into a commonly accepted and not side-eyed name, you have to be comfortable with people side-eyeing and judging you and your child based on their name. You have to be comfortable not just with people thinking you are strange or trying too hard but also with your child potentially being teased on the playground, perceived as full of himself, or overlooked for a job. Because that's the reality of how people's minds respond to Blue and Valor in our culture at this timepoint in history.
I was going to address OPs question on naming "rules" as well. I'll try and address it from a different perspective from @vulpini.
Names mostly come from languages other than English with the exception of virtue names and nature names (maybe a few other exceptions). Usually, these names are a language's interpretation of older names. In fact, you find many names come from similar, ancient roots. Typical names accepted in English come from the same roots as the English language itself (Latin, Greek, French, German, Anglo-Saxon/Danish/Norse plus interpretations of Hebrew names through Christianity).
Ok, so now we get onto the perception of names which is actually a lot more important to your questions than etymology. In order for a name not to be "side-eyed" by the majority of a populace it needs to be accepted as a name. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the system or not, cultures all over the world and all through history have valued tradition and history primarily as the measure of legitimacy of a name. In fact, the passing on of names or using established methods to choose names is a key tradition in many western and eastern cultures. The way names travel actually is the key to "new" names. Work within the rules of legitimacy? It's a name.
Example: the name Elizabeth comes from the Hebrew via Greek and then to the Saxon-English. Its roots are ancient and interpretations of older names.
In the last decade or so, the search for unique and unusual names has meant parents look for new inspiration for names. Regardless of whether or not people use it, the population at large will probably not accept it as a name. This will not manifest it as "you can't use it" (although this is the case in some countries) but in more subtle ways. The child can be mocked, excluded or judged. I'm not just talking about the playground but in social groups (including workplaces), institutions (especially if they are more traditional in approaches like universities, clubs and societies) and higher echelons of society. Is it fair? Probably not. Does it happen? Research points to yes.
So, let me be clear: Valor/Valour isn't a name. Not by any test of a recognised name. It's etymology is English, it has no history to speak of as anything other than a noun and society at large has not accepted it as a name. Grace, by comparison is in English but has a strong history as a given name and is accepted by society at large.
Your decision is this: do you give your child a noun as a name that they will be (fairly or otherwise) compared to for the rest of their life? If your answer is yes then do it but don't do it under the guise of "it's a name because I said it is". It doesn't really work that way
My husband was AD in the USMC and while Marines have a lot of connection to valor I.E. "Uncommon valor was a common virtue" (famous phrase to describe Marines) as well as valor being used to title documentaries of Marines, I don't think my husband would be offended/care if he met someone with that name. Knowing him, he'd probably think it was kind of cool. I think of Marines when I hear that word because I lived in a Marine town and was with them 24/7 but a lot of people probably don't.
Re: What about Valor?
Yeah because nobody has ever been put in jail for absolutely bogus reasons. Especially in the USA.
I kind of think that if he winds up in jail, JAIL is the punishment for winding up in jail. Why add an ironic name to the mix? And as his mother, I promise you, you won't feel this way if some sort of unfortunate circumstances befall your kid. At least... i hope not... Every kid deserves a name they can always look to for dignity. Not "And bonus! If he screws up, his name will make him look like a douche!" That's not how to name your kid. There are tons of ways to make your kid feel like he's being a douche when he acts like one. His name is NOT one of those ways. It would be like nicknaming a kid Hitler because he made a racist comment that one time.. Not a good self esteem move..
Thank you
I wonder if the people that consider "Noah" think: "hmmm if he becomes a lawyer, sounds good...if he becomes a baseball player, sound good...if he works at an icecream shop, sounds good....SHOOT honey..."Noah" sounds HORRIBLE for a criminal-he will feel like a douche in the jail cafeteria because his name represents an admirable, faithful biblical character. We surely don't want our criminal son's name to shatter his somehow-still-in-tact-dignity! Maybe Blaze is more fitting...or Rebel...hmmm."
I guess if nothing else, kids can legally change their names at 18. Maybe my Elena will want to be a Feather and your Valor will want to be a Noah!
DH: 33
Married: October 2015
TTC #1: October 2015
EDD #1: June/July 2017
It's silly to assume a whole "group" will share one collective opinion, though. Maybe some service(wo)men won't be offended by Valor, and some will. Same with Jewish folks re: Cohen.
Also, just to clarify @cupkatie4 . I was the one who mentioned Titus in the other thread. But I also don't think being able to shorten Titan to tit is the "problem" with the name (Its just nms and I think it seems more like a big, or ironically small, dogs name). I'm sure those who find the tit thing to be a problem with Titan would also feel the same way about Titus, for what it's worth.
Edited because I tagged the wrong person.
Valor, however, is a trait not traditionally associated with JUST the military. Stolen Valor is a relatively new concept, and therefore not even close to being in the same league as Cohen. Stolen Valor is also a negative concept, whereas Cohen is an honored tradition. Also, after working in the military community, I can say with certainty that very, very few military personnel (that I have ever met) think of themselves as valorous. Those that do are huge douchebags. The majority go to work, do their jobs, and go home. Yes, sometimes the job asks more of them than other careers might, but they knew that possibility before joining and decided that the benefits outweighed the risks.
Cultural appropriation IS an issue; however, it is really not applicable in this situation.
There are of course lots of names in lots of languages that are single words that were at one point used or still are used in that language. What makes them "names" is that they have a history of being used as such by a lot of people over a long period of time. It's all about perception. People can hear Rose, Pearl, April, and Grace and think "name" and "human being" and not just flower, gem stone, calendar month, and character trait. They can separate any associations they have with the word from the person who has that name. Like a PP said, Grace is so common a name that a woman with that name is not immediately expected to be graceful or judged for not being so. Rose is a human. Chrysenthemum is a flower.
Now you are right that each of those names at some point was just a word that was associated only with a flower, gem stone, etc and not a human. You are right that over time Apple, Blue, North, and Valor could also become common names that no one would blink at. The issues with that argument are that
1) For that to happen, they would have to become very popular/common at some point so that the associations in people's minds change. Popularity seems to be the very thing that parents naming their kid Blue are trying to avoid.
2) Until/unless they become popular, people will continue to associate those words mainly/only with fruit, color, cardinal direction and character trait and not a human.
So if you want to be at the forefront of turning a word into a commonly accepted and not side-eyed name, you have to be comfortable with people side-eyeing and judging you and your child based on their name. You have to be comfortable not just with people thinking you are strange or trying too hard but also with your child potentially being teased on the playground, perceived as full of himself, or overlooked for a job. Because that's the reality of how people's minds respond to Blue and Valor in our culture at this timepoint in history.
I was going to address OPs question on naming "rules" as well. I'll try and address it from a different perspective from @vulpini.
Names mostly come from languages other than English with the exception of virtue names and nature names (maybe a few other exceptions). Usually, these names are a language's interpretation of older names. In fact, you find many names come from similar, ancient roots. Typical names accepted in English come from the same roots as the English language itself (Latin, Greek, French, German, Anglo-Saxon/Danish/Norse plus interpretations of Hebrew names through Christianity).
Ok, so now we get onto the perception of names which is actually a lot more important to your questions than etymology. In order for a name not to be "side-eyed" by the majority of a populace it needs to be accepted as a name. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the system or not, cultures all over the world and all through history have valued tradition and history primarily as the measure of legitimacy of a name. In fact, the passing on of names or using established methods to choose names is a key tradition in many western and eastern cultures. The way names travel actually is the key to "new" names. Work within the rules of legitimacy? It's a name.
Example: the name Elizabeth comes from the Hebrew via Greek and then to the Saxon-English. Its roots are ancient and interpretations of older names.
In the last decade or so, the search for unique and unusual names has meant parents look for new inspiration for names. Regardless of whether or not people use it, the population at large will probably not accept it as a name. This will not manifest it as "you can't use it" (although this is the case in some countries) but in more subtle ways. The child can be mocked, excluded or judged. I'm not just talking about the playground but in social groups (including workplaces), institutions (especially if they are more traditional in approaches like universities, clubs and societies) and higher echelons of society. Is it fair? Probably not. Does it happen? Research points to yes.
So, let me be clear: Valor/Valour isn't a name. Not by any test of a recognised name. It's etymology is English, it has no history to speak of as anything other than a noun and society at large has not accepted it as a name. Grace, by comparison is in English but has a strong history as a given name and is accepted by society at large.
Your decision is this: do you give your child a noun as a name that they will be (fairly or otherwise) compared to for the rest of their life? If your answer is yes then do it but don't do it under the guise of "it's a name because I said it is". It doesn't really work that way
Expecting Double Trouble, April 2016