I'm in a little pickle with this whole shower/sprinkle thing. I do NOT want one at all. I was married before and have three kids. I am currently remarried and this is my husbands first. His mother ( I love her dearly) is persistent about throwing a shower even though I told her no. She did it for our wedding, I know she will do it for the baby. I do not want one at all! I feel so awkward about it. What do you do in that situation? Ughh I'm dreading it!!
I'm telling my MIL straight up that I don't want a shower, end of story. We're fortunate that we live far away so there are only so many opportunities that she would be able to have to throw one and my husband or mother would get wind of it if she was throwing one and they both know I dont want one either and (hopefully) will put a stop to it.
I had a shower for my first and second, both boys and three years apart. The first my mother threw for me. The second, was a sunrise that my work threw for me. I didn't feel akward because we were living in a different state and absolutely no one had given me a gift before. Plus my work did showers for all pregnant ladies. My SIL was desperate to hoast a shower for my third, but I begged no. Being thoughtful my feelings, she listened and did not have one for me. I'm sure someone will offer to do one again, but I'll decline.
So I never got to have a shower, or do anything baby related. My husband and I were in DC, away from all our family, having our first child alone. Family didn't even get to see our son until he was 2-3 months old. We had the bare minimum while we were in DC. Then, we had to purchase everything else we needed/wanted. May I add, we were both 21 and both in college full time. This will be baby number 2, and I would REALLY like a shower. I won't need or ask for anything expensive, but it would be really nice to have that experience. It really depends on each situation. Does it really matter if people throw parties for the people they care about? If you think it's tacky, then don't have one! But why judge when you don't know what's going on?
I'm pregnant with my 3rd, the baby and my middle will be 4.5 years apart. The first thing my best friend did after I told her was call my DH and ask if I would be put off by having a sprinkle thrown for me. Since he had no idea what that was he asked me. I said I didn't care I since I was not the one throwing it. Having someone throw you a party that you have nothing to do with (and I probably won't hear about it again until it actually happens, if it happens) and throwing a party for yourself is different. However I do think all babies deserve to be celebrated and I would do the same for my friends/family. Who cares?! If it's not gift grabby...probably would have bought them a gift anyway!
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So I never got to have a shower, or do anything baby related. My husband and I were in DC, away from all our family, having our first child alone. Family didn't even get to see our son until he was 2-3 months old. We had the bare minimum while we were in DC. Then, we had to purchase everything else we needed/wanted. May I add, we were both 21 and both in college full time. This will be baby number 2, and I would REALLY like a shower. I won't need or ask for anything expensive, but it would be really nice to have that experience. It really depends on each situation. Does it really matter if people throw parties for the people they care about? If you think it's tacky, then don't have one! But why judge when you don't know what's going on?
As the parents, why wouldn't you have to purchase everything you needed for your child?
Do you mind me asking why you're SO against showers and gifts? I have never received a shower invitation and been offended that I have to buy a present for someone's new baby, whether it's the first or tenth. If those are your feelings, just RSVP no. Simple as that... No bitching required. I think showers are an awesome way for women (and hey, men too!) to all come together for a fun celebration AND contribute gifts. It can be big, small, or even sentimental in nature. After all, isn't a shower meant to shower the mom-to-be with gifts?! I can't believe there are women out there that are offended by this... You girls have opened my eyes on that and it's just so sad!! It's not everyday you come across situations to just be excited and happy about, but I think babies are TOTALLY one of them. Stop looking for the negative in a shower and just be happy someone thought of you to celebrate with! ...as for me, as a first time mom who is over the MOON excited (especially after attending showers for years!) I can't wait to have a shower and invite all the women in my life. What better reason to get together?! (And no, I'm not throwing it myself ladies!) Expect your invitation in the mail next summer @thegoudalife!!
I'm on board with the wanting to celebrate every baby and pamper the mom crowd. I have no problem getting gifts for subsequent babies because they should have a few small things that are just their own and the mom should have a day where she gets to feel special because pregnancy and birth are tough! I've learned that some people, especially on TB, have a REAL problem with the idea of appearing entitled or gift grabby and I get it. No one likes someone to be telling them they have to buy certain things. I'm assuming the people that get really upset about it are basing their opinion on personal experience.
But if someone wants to throw you a party I think it's silly to beat them off with a stick saying "no!! someone might think I liked getting presents!! Or that I can't pay for my own kid!! I hate well intentioned gifts from the people I love because I'm NOT entitled and gift grabby!"
If I get an invitation that tells me what to buy and I don't want to buy that I just don't follow the rules and get what I want to give. The gift, small or large, is always up to the giver and I have no problem with someone who thinks they can tell me what type of gift to give thinking I'm rude if I don't follow their guidelines. This is referring to the showers that specify what to bring on the invitation, not a registry which is just practical.
So I never got to have a shower, or do anything baby related. My husband and I were in DC, away from all our family, having our first child alone. Family didn't even get to see our son until he was 2-3 months old. We had the bare minimum while we were in DC. Then, we had to purchase everything else we needed/wanted. May I add, we were both 21 and both in college full time. This will be baby number 2, and I would REALLY like a shower. I won't need or ask for anything expensive, but it would be really nice to have that experience. It really depends on each situation. Does it really matter if people throw parties for the people they care about? If you think it's tacky, then don't have one! But why judge when you don't know what's going on?
I completely understand where you are coming from! I was in the same type of situation with baby 1. I am not going to plan my own shower, but if someone else wants to have me on I am all for it. I am like you nothing expensive will even be registered for and I already have the furniture needed. I agree 100% if you think it is tacky just don't have one.
just don't go. Problem solved! If you feel that strongly about the person being selfish and gift grabby then you probably don't like them too much to begin with so why put on a mask of wanting to be there? You don't have to go to everything you are invited to. And if people get mad Tgat your not there then I'm sure they don't have their priorities straight either! My SIL had her first baby and her sisters threw her a shower. On top of the regular gift that's normally expected, the invite said "no cards please, bring a children's book and sign that instead! And check your diapers at the door please bring a box of diapers" So they were asking for 2 extra gifts on top of whatever else you buy. I thought it as too much. I brought a gift and a card. No one cared! And if they did, screw em! If my friends do end up throwing me a sprinkle I will be gracious and thankful if people don't come I understand and if I don't get any gifts I don't care! To me that's not what it's about! Whoever is throwing the party chooses the title and in this case it would not be me. I will say that if they did go through all that trouble and I was upset that they thought of me and did something nice then I'm sure they would be upset and rightfully so.
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My friend had a party to celebrate her third pregnancy. I have no idea what they called it, but it was basically a tea/brunch with her daughters and girlfriends and their daughters. She's pregnant with her third girl. I think some people brought little gifts. I saw the pictures and it was very sweet and a nice way for her daughters to be involved, have a party with their friends, and get all dressed up.
This is my third baby I had a shower for my first only. Pretty sure I won't have a shower or sprinkle this time around either. I love the idea of a sip n see or just a big party after baby is born. Especially since it will be summer time and we love throwing parties.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
A shower is, by definition, a gift-giving event intended to "shower" a new mother with gifts to use for her baby. A sprinkle is a smaller version of a shower for subsequent babies. If it's not about gifts, don't call it a shower/sprinkle. Otherwise, gifts are definitely going to be seen as part of the equation. This was already explained earlier in the thread, but I guess it bears repeating.
I have no issue with a party to celebrate a new baby, that's all well and good if its a baby celebration where gifts aren't expected. Once you name it a shower/sprinkle, the gift optional nature goes out the window and if you've already got other kids, that's when it becomes gift grabby to me.
There are some people who will likely purchase items for us/the baby which I have no issues accepting if they are so inclined. Maybe my aversion to gift giving parties is just because my MIL invited every female she could think of to my bridal shower (including women who live 3000 miles away) and then kept tabs on who did/didn't send a gift if they couldnt attend which I found very distasteful and kind of put me off from the parties entirely.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
A shower is, by definition, a gift-giving event intended to "shower" a new mother with gifts to use for her baby. A sprinkle is a smaller version of a shower for subsequent babies. If it's not about gifts, don't call it a shower/sprinkle. Otherwise, gifts are definitely going to be seen as part of the equation. This was already explained earlier in the thread, but I guess it bears repeating.
Huh? Where did I indicate I didn't understand the definition of shower/sprinkle?
I was employing sarcasm to convey a point about the theoretical pregnant woman who is constantly talked about on places like TB. This is the woman who throws showers for herself and demands presents and is gift-grabby. This woman is not well-liked and constantly referenced in arguments against showers and the idea that they can appear as materialistic and selfish.
I have never actually met a woman like this -but hear about her often. So, in conclusion - I was making a joke. And now I'm explaining it.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
This is going to sound made up, but I had a friend this summer who started a Facebook group where she nominated friends to help throw her a shower. So I basically put on a committee to throw her shower!! I politely declined with some excuse after I found out she invited a hundred people! When I got the invitation, everyone invited was assigned to bring a food dish and there was a diaper raffle! This was her first shower but tackier than any "sprinkles" I've been to!!
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
This is going to sound made up, but I had a friend this summer who started a Facebook group where she nominated friends to help throw her a shower. So I basically put on a committee to throw her shower!! I politely declined with some excuse after I found out she invited a hundred people! When I got the invitation, everyone invited was assigned to bring a food dish and there was a diaper raffle! This was her first shower but tackier than any "sprinkles" I've been to!!
Awful!
Somewhat unrelated/related:
An acquaintance of my husband got married a year after we did (we didn't invite her to our wedding since our invite list was fairly small) And she got eloped, then she sent us an invitation to her 'wedding celebration" with explicit instructions to drop off all gifts at her mother's on the way to her party. The whole thing just feel very contrived.
So yes, I totally believe you. Some people just have terrible etiquette when it comes to parties.
I'm LOLing at all the pearl clutching. People love celebrating babies. Having a sprinkle thrown for you = not tacky. Throwing your own shower/sprinkle = tacky.
I've done a little something for my friends on their second babies. It was fun and under the notion that every baby, not just the first, should be celebrated. It was just our group of friends; no family. I mean, who doesn't want to eat sweets and open a few presents?
Do I think it should be a huge nessecary thing? No.
So I never got to have a shower, or do anything baby related. My husband and I were in DC, away from all our family, having our first child alone. Family didn't even get to see our son until he was 2-3 months old. We had the bare minimum while we were in DC. Then, we had to purchase everything else we needed/wanted. May I add, we were both 21 and both in college full time. This will be baby number 2, and I would REALLY like a shower. I won't need or ask for anything expensive, but it would be really nice to have that experience. It really depends on each situation. Does it really matter if people throw parties for the people they care about? If you think it's tacky, then don't have one! But why judge when you don't know what's going on?
I hope you get a shower this time! It's one of those experiences that would be nice to have.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
This is going to sound made up, but I had a friend this summer who started a Facebook group where she nominated friends to help throw her a shower. So I basically put on a committee to throw her shower!! I politely declined with some excuse after I found out she invited a hundred people! When I got the invitation, everyone invited was assigned to bring a food dish and there was a diaper raffle! This was her first shower but tackier than any "sprinkles" I've been to!!
Awful!
Somewhat unrelated/related:
An acquaintance of my husband got married a year after we did (we didn't invite her to our wedding since our invite list was fairly small) And she got eloped, then she sent us an invitation to her 'wedding celebration" with explicit instructions to drop off all gifts at her mother's on the way to her party. The whole thing just feel very contrived.
So yes, I totally believe you. Some people just have terrible etiquette when it comes to parties.
Blech to both of those stories. Awful. I guess my lack of dealings with these types of women isn't the norm.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
This is going to sound made up, but I had a friend this summer who started a Facebook group where she nominated friends to help throw her a shower. So I basically put on a committee to throw her shower!! I politely declined with some excuse after I found out she invited a hundred people! When I got the invitation, everyone invited was assigned to bring a food dish and there was a diaper raffle! This was her first shower but tackier than any "sprinkles" I've been to!!
I got invited to a bridal shower for my second-cousin's fiancee (I'd met her maybe two or three times and they clearly invited every female on the wedding guest list). The invitation contained registry info and was described as a pot-luck shower - every guest brings a dish and a gift. The "hostess" was the bride's mom and was just providing the space for the party, sodas, and some decorations. I made an excuse not to go.
4. Call it anything you want but a "shower" or "sprinkle" implies gifts and makes people feel like they need to bring something. (I personally never looked at it that way- but you've enlightened me).
5. Whatever you do- if you are the giver, give with a cheerful heart or just don't give at all. No baby needs a security blanket or some pacifiers tainted by your bad shower-judging vibes.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
I got invited to a shower last month by a women I met once 2 years ago through my running group. It was for her second baby, second boy under 3, she hosted, and made a Facebook event for it. She invited every person on her friend list. Hundreds of people.
ETA: SIL recently had a baby shower. I called my MIL with a few gift ideas to see if she knew whether they had them (video monitor, etc. nothing was on the registry) and received a response from SIL dictating what gift I would be buying her. Not cute.
June 2016 April Siggy Challenge: Reasons my kid is crying
Not alright with 2nd showers (let's be honest, that's what sprinkles are), however, my husband and I love having cookouts and people over so we were thinking of doing a diaper and beer picnic in the spring before LO arrives.
This is my 3rd. I know a lot of new people and have different friends than I did from 5 years ago. I know they are thrilled for me and I think one of them will throw a surprise sprinkle at her house with just our closest friends. If they want to do so I would be grateful of course but I would never suggest it.
I'm so weird... I want all my friends to have showers and sprinkles! But, I'm a FTM and am terrified of the idea of a shower. I don't like parties, I really really don't like big parties. My MIL went nuts on our wedding shower by inviting tons of people, including those that weren't invited to the wedding. I had to put my foot down Bc the very idea of people I had never met giving me gifts and being stuck in a room with them terrified me, and hello? So tacky!! The shower would have been bigger than the very small wedding! She and FIL said I should medicate for anxiety... I don't have anxiety, I have a deep loathing of large forced social gatherings.
I don't want a shower, and feel comfortable making the request that if anyone throws one it a) not be a surprise and b) be small- and have told my mom if anyone approaches her to make this clear...but I would never say no to a shower or a sprinkle. It's not all about us, even though it's a shower. Loved ones will want to show their love and you should let them, IMO. Here's why I'm weird: I love love love giving my friends and family baby stuff. ANY excuse to help ease their load and make them happy and I'm on it. I attend showers just so I can give desired gifts and hug and praise the parents-to-be then I gtfo as fast as I can. So bring on the (not-self-hosted) showers, sprinkles etc for everyone but me! I hate the party, love the giving. Like I said, weird.
Not alright with 2nd showers (let's be honest, that's what sprinkles are), however, my husband and I love having cookouts and people over so we were thinking of doing a diaper and beer picnic in the spring before LO arrives.
What? So hosting a gift giving event for yourself?
DS 9/2/13 was a BFP from an IUI! Triplets due 6/29/16 also from an IUI!
My SIL has been planning a baby shower since she found out I had my Mirena taken out, needless to say she is the most excited one out of anyone. Dd will be 5 when baby is born and we literally kept nothing from her. We also had a diaper raffle at DD shower. I'm all full of "tacky"
I've thrown a sip and see for a friend in the past, her kids were a little less than 3 years apart.
My MIL would definitely be one to try to have a grandmother shower. Everything is always about her and if she can get the attention, she will do it. Even though she sees DD once every 4-5 mo if that and has never had her on her own.
Eta:: I'm also having a gender reveal party this time since I didn't get to last time, and I'm throwing that one myself.
I'm so weird... I want all my friends to have showers and sprinkles! But, I'm a FTM and am terrified of the idea of a shower. I don't like parties, I really really don't like big parties. My MIL went nuts on our wedding shower by inviting tons of people, including those that weren't invited to the wedding. I had to put my foot down Bc the very idea of people I had never met giving me gifts and being stuck in a room with them terrified me, and hello? So tacky!! The shower would have been bigger than the very small wedding! She and FIL said I should medicate for anxiety... I don't have anxiety, I have a deep loathing of large forced social gatherings.
I don't want a shower, and feel comfortable making the request that if anyone throws one it a) not be a surprise and b) be small- and have told my mom if anyone approaches her to make this clear...but I would never say no to a shower or a sprinkle. It's not all about us, even though it's a shower. Loved ones will want to show their love and you should let them, IMO. Here's why I'm weird: I love love love giving my friends and family baby stuff. ANY excuse to help ease their load and make them happy and I'm on it. I attend showers just so I can give desired gifts and hug and praise the parents-to-be then I gtfo as fast as I can. So bring on the (not-self-hosted) showers, sprinkles etc for everyone but me! I hate the party, love the giving. Like I said, weird.
I also hate being the center of attention! I don't want a shower, but agree it's not all about us. My mom really wants me to have one. So we'll see!
Married July 2014 DD born June 2016 Second due August 2020 (team green!)
@samsonator so glad to know I'm not alone! Thanks! My mom feels the same way, she has four kids over 30 and this is the first grand baby. Pretty sure I can't disappoint. Hope yours is lovely and stress free (or at least stress limited!)
I don't understand the need for a second shower or sprinkle. Why didn't you keep anything from your first kid? And if you thought you'd be having more than one, why would you get the big stuff "gender specific" (especially if it bothers you for your son to have a pink car seat or similar situation),. Idk whenever I've gone to meet a new baby I always bring a few outfits. Pretty much everyone I know does this. No need for another shower.
I'm so weird... I want all my friends to have showers and sprinkles! But, I'm a FTM and am terrified of the idea of a shower. I don't like parties, I really really don't like big parties. My MIL went nuts on our wedding shower by inviting tons of people, including those that weren't invited to the wedding. I had to put my foot down Bc the very idea of people I had never met giving me gifts and being stuck in a room with them terrified me, and hello? So tacky!! The shower would have been bigger than the very small wedding! She and FIL said I should medicate for anxiety... I don't have anxiety, I have a deep loathing of large forced social gatherings.
I don't want a shower, and feel comfortable making the request that if anyone throws one it a) not be a surprise and b) be small- and have told my mom if anyone approaches her to make this clear...but I would never say no to a shower or a sprinkle. It's not all about us, even though it's a shower. Loved ones will want to show their love and you should let them, IMO. Here's why I'm weird: I love love love giving my friends and family baby stuff. ANY excuse to help ease their load and make them happy and I'm on it. I attend showers just so I can give desired gifts and hug and praise the parents-to-be then I gtfo as fast as I can. So bring on the (not-self-hosted) showers, sprinkles etc for everyone but me! I hate the party, love the giving. Like I said, weird.
I also hate being the center of attention! I don't want a shower, but agree it's not all about us. My mom really wants me to have one. So we'll see!
Lol. I'm the same. The thought of a shower makes me cringe a little. I like the idea of a meet and greet for baby much more. Then baby is the center of attention not you! I also feel more comfortable hosting this as you are doing something nice for guests by providing food and drinks rather than the other way round! It sounds more relaxed.
I don't understand the need for a second shower or sprinkle. Why didn't you keep anything from your first kid? And if you thought you'd be having more than one, why would you get the big stuff "gender specific" (especially if it bothers you for your son to have a pink car seat or similar situation),. Idk whenever I've gone to meet a new baby I always bring a few outfits. Pretty much everyone I know does this. No need for another shower.
We were planning on being 1 and done, after 4 years we decided to have another. We also lived in a small apartment with a roommate for some time and had no room to keep anything!
We just had a sprinkle for a coworker that had 3 boys and then finally a girl. We did it after the baby was born. Everyone that went just gave small "girly" outfits/accesories, and there were no games or decorations involved.
Re: Sprinkle?
But if someone wants to throw you a party I think it's silly to beat them off with a stick saying "no!! someone might think I liked getting presents!! Or that I can't pay for my own kid!! I hate well intentioned gifts from the people I love because I'm NOT entitled and gift grabby!"
If I get an invitation that tells me what to buy and I don't want to buy that I just don't follow the rules and get what I want to give. The gift, small or large, is always up to the giver and I have no problem with someone who thinks they can tell me what type of gift to give thinking I'm rude if I don't follow their guidelines. This is referring to the showers that specify what to bring on the invitation, not a registry which is just practical.
So they were asking for 2 extra gifts on top of whatever else you buy. I thought it as too much. I brought a gift and a card. No one cared! And if they did, screw em! If my friends do end up throwing me a sprinkle I will be gracious and thankful if people don't come I understand and if I don't get any gifts I don't care! To me that's not what it's about! Whoever is throwing the party chooses the title and in this case it would not be me. I will say that if they did go through all that trouble and I was upset that they thought of me and did something nice then I'm sure they would be upset and rightfully so.
I still have yet to meet this mystical pregnant woman who throws her own showers and demands presents. But man do I hear about her a LOT.
This is my third baby I had a shower for my first only. Pretty sure I won't have a shower or sprinkle this time around either. I love the idea of a sip n see or just a big party after baby is born. Especially since it will be summer time and we love throwing parties.
A shower is, by definition, a gift-giving event intended to "shower" a new mother with gifts to use for her baby. A sprinkle is a smaller version of a shower for subsequent babies. If it's not about gifts, don't call it a shower/sprinkle. Otherwise, gifts are definitely going to be seen as part of the equation. This was already explained earlier in the thread, but I guess it bears repeating.
There are some people who will likely purchase items for us/the baby which I have no issues accepting if they are so inclined. Maybe my aversion to gift giving parties is just because my MIL invited every female she could think of to my bridal shower (including women who live 3000 miles away) and then kept tabs on who did/didn't send a gift if they couldnt attend which I found very distasteful and kind of put me off from the parties entirely.
Huh? Where did I indicate I didn't understand the definition of shower/sprinkle?
I was employing sarcasm to convey a point about the theoretical pregnant woman who is constantly talked about on places like TB. This is the woman who throws showers for herself and demands presents and is gift-grabby. This woman is not well-liked and constantly referenced in arguments against showers and the idea that they can appear as materialistic and selfish.
I have never actually met a woman like this -but hear about her often. So, in conclusion - I was making a joke. And now I'm explaining it.
I lurk. I snark. I offer sound advice if you're not BSC. You may not like me. I'm okay with it.
I've done a little something for my friends on their second babies. It was fun and under the notion that every baby, not just the first, should be celebrated. It was just our group of friends; no family. I mean, who doesn't want to eat sweets and open a few presents?
Do I think it should be a huge nessecary thing? No.
Do I think it should be hosted by the mom? No.
Is it something you register for? Nope!
Blech to both of those stories. Awful. I guess my lack of dealings with these types of women isn't the norm.
1. It's good to celebrate babies.
2. It can be done with/without a party.
3. Don't make your own party.
4. Call it anything you want but a "shower" or "sprinkle" implies gifts and makes people feel like they need to bring something. (I personally never looked at it that way- but you've enlightened me).
5. Whatever you do- if you are the giver, give with a cheerful heart or just don't give at all. No baby needs a security blanket or some pacifiers tainted by your bad shower-judging vibes.
ETA: SIL recently had a baby shower. I called my MIL with a few gift ideas to see if she knew whether they had them (video monitor, etc. nothing was on the registry) and received a response from SIL dictating what gift I would be buying her. Not cute.
I don't want a shower, and feel comfortable making the request that if anyone throws one it a) not be a surprise and b) be small- and have told my mom if anyone approaches her to make this clear...but I would never say no to a shower or a sprinkle. It's not all about us, even though it's a shower. Loved ones will want to show their love and you should let them, IMO. Here's why I'm weird: I love love love giving my friends and family baby stuff. ANY excuse to help ease their load and make them happy and I'm on it. I attend showers just so I can give desired gifts and hug and praise the parents-to-be then I gtfo as fast as I can. So bring on the (not-self-hosted) showers, sprinkles etc for everyone but me! I hate the party, love the giving. Like I said, weird.
Triplets due 6/29/16 also from an IUI!
DS #1: EDD: 9/25/12, Born 10-9-12
I've thrown a sip and see for a friend in the past, her kids were a little less than 3 years apart.
My MIL would definitely be one to try to have a grandmother shower. Everything is always about her and if she can get the attention, she will do it. Even though she sees DD once every 4-5 mo if that and has never had her on her own.
Eta:: I'm also having a gender reveal party this time since I didn't get to last time, and I'm throwing that one myself.
DD born June 2016
Second due August 2020 (team green!)