Is my sister-in-law inconsiderate or am I just hormonal?

katec4vt · October 2015

My SIL lives halfway across the country from my husband and I. She only ever comes to visit for Christmas. This year, as I'm pregnant with her niece, my MIL went to the trouble of planning a second baby shower just so she could participate, while we knew she would be here. Last week she called to say that she did not care about attending the shower and had decided she was cutting her two week trip three days short, leaving the day before the shower we planned specifically around her instead of the day after, because the flight was cheaper. She then went on to suggest that her mother, who will have to ask her own father to help, pay for her to fly back out two weeks after my due date so that she can actually meet the baby.

This isn't the first time she has irked me about the child her brother and I are expecting. She's suggested she'll purchase her "Llama Llama Mad at Mama", then shared a post on Facebook about books for younger children that are "transgender friendly" [she considers herself cisgender, but supports the trans community (I had to Google what that even meant)]; but now it's basically like she's saying 'Well, I don't care about coming to the shower for my SIL, so I'll say it's cheaper to fly home before it, but then I'll make someone pay for me to fly back another time'. I just think she's being inconsiderate to everyone - and to be perfectly honest, I don't want out of town visitors two weeks after my due date. I get wanting to meet the baby, but how about asking my husband and I when it might be convenient for us? Am I overreacting or is she just out of line?

bjfras · October 2015

Your sister in law sounds like a piece of work. Having said that, I think we all have to deal with inconsiderate people now and then and the best way to handle it is not let them get to you. So she's not going to make your second baby shower- big deal! From the sound of it, she wouldn't be good company anyway.

katec4vt · October 2015

Haha - that I can agree with! I'm just not sure how to handle her planning to visit so close to my due date. She hasn't said anything to my husband or me. My MIL just told me that she told her she'd need her to pay for her to fly back out. It's not like I want to deprive her from seeing our daughter at all, but I only get six weeks of maternity leave and don't care to spend any of it entertaining her. I mean what if I go past my due date and have to be induced, then I get an out of town visitor I'm stuck with a week after? No thank you.

mcklough · October 2015

If she's never been close to anyone having a baby she might have no idea that people might not want visitors. I would say you can only really be upset with her about the shower thing if it was planned because she said she really wished she could have been there. With her borrowing money for the flight unless she's asking you for money it's not really your place to be upset about that. My mom and dad help my sister and I sometimes get to each other (my sister and BIL are in Ok, mom and dad are in FL and DH and I are in NY)

About the trans books thing... If you are supportive and also want to help the gender queer community (using that as a blanket term to try to be inclusive) then I think it's just her way of trying to be involved with the pregnancy and the baby. It also may be a way for her to share with the FB community that A- these things exist and B- there are things you can do to be supportive and to educate others even children. I see it on the same level as my ILs buying little baby Mets stuff for baby. People tend to show their passions and interests in their gift giving.

That being said I can also understand and see where all those things made you frustrated. I don't know what llama llama mad at momma is but if I was frustrated with someone and they told me they were buying a book with that title my initial reaction would be something along the lines of "great, so your saying my kid is going to be pissed at me and your damn books going to fix it just like YOU could fix it".

ETA: I initially said something about supporting her identity. Cisgender means that they identify with the gender assigned to them at birth which is the "norm" so it probably doesn't have to do with supporting HER specifically, just a cause she believes in.

DrillSergeantCat · October 2015

mcklough said:

If she's never been close to anyone having a baby she might have no idea that people might not want visitors. I would say you can only really be upset with her about the shower thing if it was planned because she said she really wished she could have been there. With her borrowing money for the flight unless she's asking you for money it's not really your place to be upset about that. My mom and dad help my sister and I sometimes get to each other (my sister and BIL are in Ok, mom and dad are in FL and DH and I are in NY)
About the trans books thing... If you are supportive of her identity and want to help the gender queer community (using that as a blanket term to try to be inclusive) then I think it's just her way of trying to be involved with the pregnancy and the baby. It also may be a way for her to share with the FB community that A- these things exist and B- there are things you can do to be supportive and to educate others even children. I see it on the same level as my ILs buying little baby Mets stuff for baby. People tend to show their passions and interests in their gift giving.
That being said I can also understand and see where all those things made you frustrated. I don't know what llama llama mad at momma is but if I was frustrated with someone and they told me they were buying a book with that title my initial reaction would be something along the lines of "great, so your saying my kid is going to be pissed at me and your damn books going to fix it just like YOU could fix it".

The way I see it is if your kid doesn't hate at least some of the time, you're doing it wrong.

mcklough · October 2015

DrillSergeantCat said:

mcklough said:

If she's never been close to anyone having a baby she might have no idea that people might not want visitors. I would say you can only really be upset with her about the shower thing if it was planned because she said she really wished she could have been there. With her borrowing money for the flight unless she's asking you for money it's not really your place to be upset about that. My mom and dad help my sister and I sometimes get to each other (my sister and BIL are in Ok, mom and dad are in FL and DH and I are in NY)
About the trans books thing... If you are supportive of her identity and want to help the gender queer community (using that as a blanket term to try to be inclusive) then I think it's just her way of trying to be involved with the pregnancy and the baby. It also may be a way for her to share with the FB community that A- these things exist and B- there are things you can do to be supportive and to educate others even children. I see it on the same level as my ILs buying little baby Mets stuff for baby. People tend to show their passions and interests in their gift giving.
That being said I can also understand and see where all those things made you frustrated. I don't know what llama llama mad at momma is but if I was frustrated with someone and they told me they were buying a book with that title my initial reaction would be something along the lines of "great, so your saying my kid is going to be pissed at me and your damn books going to fix it just like YOU could fix it".

The way I see it is if your kid doesn't hate at least some of the time, you're doing it wrong.

completely agree- but that doesn't change my potential hormonal reaction. I don't want my infant to hate me lol

shupertj09 · October 2015

I honestly won't worry myself over the baby shower. I just would never schedule anything around her again in the future. Also, I would just have your DH bring up to his mom that you had mentioned to him his sister wanted to visit a couple of weeks after due date and that he isn't comfortable with that. It's his family so it will come off best coming from him.

You don't need to entertain while you have a new baby. I would have your DH suggest a good time for her to fly in and meet the baby. Maybe once you're back to work she could babysit and get plenty of bonding time :P

DrillSergeantCat · October 2015

mcklough said:

completely agree- but that doesn't change my potential hormonal reaction. I don't want my infant to hate me lol

Lol. Your infant won't hate you. You may very well think your infant hates you some days, but (s)he won't.

SoSweetTea1124 · October 2015

I wouldn't even worry about it... you aren't being inconvenienced, it's your MIL that should be pissed and if she is going through all of the trouble to do all of this extra work so that (s)he can be involved, let her be the one to deal with it. As far as visiting after the baby is born, you need to bring it up to you MIL that doing it then may not be a good time, its flu season, she will have been flying, covered in germs, you may not have even had the baby by then and you would prefer her to hold of on the visit. Also, Llama Llama Mad at Mamma is a story meant for kids to show them how to control their emotions and to help parents understand their kids tantrums.... nothing more than that. Just let the hormonal rages subside, and try not to freak.

katec4vt · October 2015

@mckloughHer mom (my MIL) is paying for the first flight home. Before her flight was even booked, her mom told her she wanted to host a baby shower while my SIL would be here. I wanted the baby shower to be in November. We planned it for January, just because this was a date my SIL said worked for her. She instead decided to leave right before the shower, instead of the day after, because it was a cheaper flight (that her mom is paying for). Now she wants her mom to pay for another flight (wasn't the point to save money?) so she can come home two weeks after my due date.

It is fair to say she might just not realize that the timing of her second visit isn't ideal. My husband is her only sibling and I don't think she has a lot of friends with children. But why not ask? I think that's the really frustrating part. She won't relay any of this information to me or her brother herself, it's all coming from her mom - who is obviously peeved at the situation and might be influencing my attitude about it.

In regards to the trans books (and I am not saying that we do or do not support her identity *btw she is NOT trans*), I do not believe that they are appropriate for babies/toddlers.

bublesmiled · October 2015

I don't think you're being hormonal - I think she's being difficult. Unfortunately, most of us have that one person in our lives (mine happens to be my MIL) and there's nothing really to do about them changing who they are. They are pain in the ass people who think the world revolves around them and think what they believe is to be correct. In some situations, you can talk to them, in others it's easier to let things go. As far as the baby shower - you can be upset, but in the end - it sounds like it's for the best. For her visiting, I agree with the pp that your husband should be the one to say something, especially with the reasons listed above of the germs on the plane. Unfortunately, if your MIL is not going to say something about the shower and stuff, there's not much for you to do. Good luck!

mamacat315 · October 2015

I'd try not to let this bother me if I were you. It's more your mother-in-law's problem than yours, really.

Monkeybutt80 · October 2015

katec4vt said:

@mckloughHer mom (my MIL) is paying for the first flight home. Before her flight was even booked, her mom told her she wanted to host a baby shower while my SIL would be here. I wanted the baby shower to be in November. We planned it for January, just because this was a date my SIL said worked for her. She instead decided to leave right before the shower, instead of the day after, because it was a cheaper flight (that her mom is paying for). Now she wants her mom to pay for another flight (wasn't the point to save money?) so she can come home two weeks after my due date.

It is fair to say she might just not realize that the timing of her second visit isn't ideal. My husband is her only sibling and I don't think she has a lot of friends with children. But why not ask? I think that's the really frustrating part. She won't relay any of this information to me or her brother herself, it's all coming from her mom - who is obviously peeved at the situation and might be influencing my attitude about it.

In regards to the trans books (and I am not saying that we do or do not support her identity *btw she is NOT trans*), I do not believe that they are appropriate for babies/toddlers.

I can see why you are frustrated with her. I would be annoyed with her also if the shower was scheduled just to accommodate her and she later changed her mind about attending. But could it be that she never told her mother than she wanted to attend the shower, but that your MIL just assumed that it would be better to do it while she is in town, even though she never expressed any desire to attend it? Either way it is weird that she's leaving early to save money even though she isn't paying for the tickets. and she should absolutely check with you before visiting and confirm good dates for you and your family.

We have Llama Llama Mad at Mama. It's a cute book that teaches kids to express their emotions but I totally get why that would be weird for someone else to buy that one.

re: Trans books. I absolutely respect your right to expose or not expose your kid to certain topics, but honestly I am curious why you think transgender is a topic that is inappropriate for toddlers. I am saying this to suggest that I don't think your SIL has any ill meaning in giving your kids books about transgender. Certain books, even if they deal with topics regarding gender identity or sexual orientation, they are still geared towards kids and children and do not contain any 'explicit (?!?)' content. It's really just a way to normalize certain groups of people that have always existed in our society, but have not been historically as accepted as normal.

When I had my first, I once read somewhere that this book about same sex marriage (It takes Two to Tango) was the most banned childrens book - so (naturally) I primed it via amazon. It is actually a really cute book based on a real story that happened at a zoo where two male penguins who love each other were given an egg that was rejected by another penguin couple and nurtured it like the other hetero penguins and had a baby penguin together! My two year old doesn't understand homosexuality v. heterosexuality, but loves the story of two daddy penguins. Just something to think about. But I agree that it is absolutely your call whether or not you want those books for your children.

mcklough · October 2015

katec4vt said:
@mckloughHer mom (my MIL) is paying for the first flight home. Before her flight was even booked, her mom told her she wanted to host a baby shower while my SIL would be here. I wanted the baby shower to be in November. We planned it for January, just because this was a date my SIL said worked for her. She instead decided to leave right before the shower, instead of the day after, because it was a cheaper flight (that her mom is paying for). Now she wants her mom to pay for another flight (wasn't the point to save money?) so she can come home two weeks after my due date.

It is fair to say she might just not realize that the timing of her second visit isn't ideal. My husband is her only sibling and I don't think she has a lot of friends with children. But why not ask? I think that's the really frustrating part. She won't relay any of this information to me or her brother herself, it's all coming from her mom - who is obviously peeved at the situation and might be influencing my attitude about it.

In regards to the trans books (and I am not saying that we do or do not support her identity *btw she is NOT trans*), I do not believe that they are appropriate for babies/toddlers.

Yea I would tell DH to talk to her. If they don't really talk but you do on FB maybe just send a message to her and let her know the time frame you think would be best (after you get settled, after flu season, when the roads are better, whatever) communication is always better than trying to understand someone else's thoughts or intentions without asking them.

If you don't want your kids exposed to the books she's suggesting that's up to you but I'd be prepared that rejecting a gifted book that addresses that topic will probably upset her more than asking her to delay her trip into town to meet baby (just my guess). Monkeybutt makes some great points that I didn't mention- I second everything she says.

katec4vt · October 2015

@monkeybutt80 Regarding the shower, both her mom and I talked to her about the date and her coming before we planned it. It doesn't really so much bother me that she isn't coming (if she had no plans to be in town I would never have expected her to come) as it does that we went to the trouble of making it suit her and, more importantly, now she expects that someone will pay for her to come back, after the first trip is already being paid for by her mom.

I'm glad that you and another poster explained the Llama Llama book; however, I still think that because it specifically had to be that ONE and not Llama Llama Red Pajamas, etc. that she meant it as more of a dig than anything else.

Regarding the trans books - here is my thought process: I have a cousin who happens to be openly gay. I think that he is one of the most amazing people I know. If it turned out that my daughter felt she was more attracted to women or perhaps felt that she identified more as male than female, I know that my cousin would offer her any support or guidance she needed and her father and I would accept her and love her the same.

I think my problem is my SIL's approach and the fact that [knowing her personally] I know she loves to harp on pop culture subjects like this. I believe we can teach our daughter love and acceptance without having to go into the specifics of a male who identifies as female and vice versa at such an early age.

Also, when my siblings and I were growing up we were encouraged to have open conversation with my mom about subjects like this. My mom didn't just hand us a book and say, 'Let me know if you have any questions'. I guess I am glad that books like this exist for others who aren't as comfortable talking about these things, but they don't fit for us.

katec4vt · October 2015

@mcklough I agree that maybe having my husband talk to her about delaying her visit is the best option, but in the mean time I did at least bring up flu season to my MIL so maybe that will plant the seed.

As far as rejecting the books goes, my husband and I agree that in our opinion they aren't the course we want to take. If my SIL chooses to disrespect that, I'll absolutely reject them and not feel bad about standing up for the decision we made.

thisusername · October 2015

Edit: I realized a lot of my original post was a rant because of how crazy my SIL is.

So I'm redoing my comment.

You should have an open discussion with her that these aren't issues you tell a toddler (the books I mean) and that you and your husband want to wait. Your MIL also shouldn't pay a penny. My mom doesn't even make enough to cover rent and she found a way to get a ticket, I mean I was going to get her one as a surprise but she surprised us first, it's just rude of her to expect someone else to do the work she should be doing (money wise) Idk. I'm very "earn your keep" in my own way.

thisusername · October 2015

Wait, what is llama llama mad at momma?

katec4vt · October 2015

@thisusername My mom is the same way. She was a single parent and even though now she might be in a better position than she was when we were all still at home, I would have to be absolutely desperate to ask her for money EVER. My brothers and I would go to each other before we'd ask her. Really it's like an unspoken sign of disrespect to even ask her, but that's just how our family is. My husband is very much the same way though. We all just learned responsibility and to make our own way. My SIL; however, unfortunately has not.

Apparently, that particular Llama Llama book is supposed to teach kids appropriate ways to express their emotions. As I said in an earlier post, though, I have a hard time believing that purchasing that Llama Llama book specifically isn't just a dig against me. Even if it is just meant to teach our daughter to express her emotions more effectively, I go back to my point about the trans books - why do we need a book to teach her these things? Can't we just encourage open communication between my husband and I and her?

What happened to the days of reading kids fairy tales and letting them dream and imagine what life could be like [even if it's not realistic]? Why do I need to introduce things like gender identity and expressing emotions via books to my daughter who hasn't even been born yet?

rainbowminion · October 2015

Maybe this isn't the most honest solution, but could you accept the book and promptly "lose" it? Would your SIL ever know?

thisusername · October 2015

katec4vt said:
@thisusername My mom is the same way. She was a single parent and even though now she might be in a better position than she was when we were all still at home, I would have to be absolutely desperate to ask her for money EVER. My brothers and I would go to each other before we'd ask her. Really it's like an unspoken sign of disrespect to even ask her, but that's just how our family is. My husband is very much the same way though. We all just learned responsibility and to make our own way. My SIL; however, unfortunately has not.

Apparently, that particular Llama Llama book is supposed to teach kids appropriate ways to express their emotions. As I said in an earlier post, though, I have a hard time believing that purchasing that Llama Llama book specifically isn't just a dig against me. Even if it is just meant to teach our daughter to express her emotions more effectively, I go back to my point about the trans books - why do we need a book to teach her these things? Can't we just encourage open communication between my husband and I and her?

What happened to the days of reading kids fairy tales and letting them dream and imagine what life could be like [even if it's not realistic]? Why do I need to introduce things like gender identity and expressing emotions via books to my daughter who hasn't even been born yet?

I agree with you 100% on the books thing. I want reading to be fun for my child, not overly educational.

Achae · October 2015

thisusername said:

@thisusername My mom is the same way. She was a single parent and even though now she might be in a better position than she was when we were all still at home, I would have to be absolutely desperate to ask her for money EVER. My brothers and I would go to each other before we'd ask her. Really it's like an unspoken sign of disrespect to even ask her, but that's just how our family is. My husband is very much the same way though. We all just learned responsibility and to make our own way. My SIL; however, unfortunately has not.

Apparently, that particular Llama Llama book is supposed to teach kids appropriate ways to express their emotions. As I said in an earlier post, though, I have a hard time believing that purchasing that Llama Llama book specifically isn't just a dig against me. Even if it is just meant to teach our daughter to express her emotions more effectively, I go back to my point about the trans books - why do we need a book to teach her these things? Can't we just encourage open communication between my husband and I and her?

What happened to the days of reading kids fairy tales and letting them dream and imagine what life could be like [even if it's not realistic]? Why do I need to introduce things like gender identity and expressing emotions via books to my daughter who hasn't even been born yet?
I agree with you 100% on the books thing. I want reading to be fun for my child, not overly educational.

IMO, the only "educational" aspect will be to see things as "normal." Good luck finding kid's books that aren't educational to some aspect.

Monkeybutt80 · October 2015

katec4vt said:

@thisusername My mom is the same way. She was a single parent and even though now she might be in a better position than she was when we were all still at home, I would have to be absolutely desperate to ask her for money EVER. My brothers and I would go to each other before we'd ask her. Really it's like an unspoken sign of disrespect to even ask her, but that's just how our family is. My husband is very much the same way though. We all just learned responsibility and to make our own way. My SIL; however, unfortunately has not.

Apparently, that particular Llama Llama book is supposed to teach kids appropriate ways to express their emotions. As I said in an earlier post, though, I have a hard time believing that purchasing that Llama Llama book specifically isn't just a dig against me. Even if it is just meant to teach our daughter to express her emotions more effectively, I go back to my point about the trans books - why do we need a book to teach her these things? Can't we just encourage open communication between my husband and I and her?

What happened to the days of reading kids fairy tales and letting them dream and imagine what life could be like [even if it's not realistic]? Why do I need to introduce things like gender identity and expressing emotions via books to my daughter who hasn't even been born yet?

katec4vt said:

@monkeybutt80 Regarding the shower, both her mom and I talked to her about the date and her coming before we planned it. It doesn't really so much bother me that she isn't coming (if she had no plans to be in town I would never have expected her to come) as it does that we went to the trouble of making it suit her and, more importantly, now she expects that someone will pay for her to come back, after the first trip is already being paid for by her mom.

I'm glad that you and another poster explained the Llama Llama book; however, I still think that because it specifically had to be that ONE and not Llama Llama Red Pajamas, etc. that she meant it as more of a dig than anything else.

Regarding the trans books - here is my thought process: I have a cousin who happens to be openly gay. I think that he is one of the most amazing people I know. If it turned out that my daughter felt she was more attracted to women or perhaps felt that she identified more as male than female, I know that my cousin would offer her any support or guidance she needed and her father and I would accept her and love her the same.

I think my problem is my SIL's approach and the fact that [knowing her personally] I know she loves to harp on pop culture subjects like this. I believe we can teach our daughter love and acceptance without having to go into the specifics of a male who identifies as female and vice versa at such an early age.

Also, when my siblings and I were growing up we were encouraged to have open conversation with my mom about subjects like this. My mom didn't just hand us a book and say, 'Let me know if you have any questions'. I guess I am glad that books like this exist for others who aren't as comfortable talking about these things, but they don't fit for us.

---------------------------------Anticipating a quote fail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that you want your kid to only read about fairy tales, and that will happen as they get older. I wish my toddler is logical enough to communicate with me about all things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads. However, until they are older, educational books ( I use that term broadly, and I don't think I have ever seen a toddler/ baby book that isn't educational - even if it only teaches them different sounds that animals make) are a very helpful way to teach babies and toddlers about all things -- things like emotions, how to understand their emotions and express their emotions, or even other things that they do not encounter on day to day basis (my toddler knows names of all different types of dinosaurs - I am not sure how I could have taught him that without educational books).

Lastly, I don't just hand him books and tell him to ask me questions if he has any. It is also not true that I use these books because I am 'uncomfortable talking about these topics'. I gave him "It takes two to tango", not because I can't have an open communication about same sex marriage, but to let him know that it is a topic that he can discuss and to show him that those couples and their kids aren't any different than us. I don't plan to sit him down and talk to him about gay marriage out of nowhere. but when he notices that someone in his class or school has two moms or two dads, I can remind him about the story of the two penguins and how it is just as normal as having a mom and a dad.

thisusername · October 2015

Monkeybutt80 said:

katec4vt said:

@thisusername My mom is the same way. She was a single parent and even though now she might be in a better position than she was when we were all still at home, I would have to be absolutely desperate to ask her for money EVER. My brothers and I would go to each other before we'd ask her. Really it's like an unspoken sign of disrespect to even ask her, but that's just how our family is. My husband is very much the same way though. We all just learned responsibility and to make our own way. My SIL; however, unfortunately has not.

Apparently, that particular Llama Llama book is supposed to teach kids appropriate ways to express their emotions. As I said in an earlier post, though, I have a hard time believing that purchasing that Llama Llama book specifically isn't just a dig against me. Even if it is just meant to teach our daughter to express her emotions more effectively, I go back to my point about the trans books - why do we need a book to teach her these things? Can't we just encourage open communication between my husband and I and her?

What happened to the days of reading kids fairy tales and letting them dream and imagine what life could be like [even if it's not realistic]? Why do I need to introduce things like gender identity and expressing emotions via books to my daughter who hasn't even been born yet?

katec4vt said:

@monkeybutt80 Regarding the shower, both her mom and I talked to her about the date and her coming before we planned it. It doesn't really so much bother me that she isn't coming (if she had no plans to be in town I would never have expected her to come) as it does that we went to the trouble of making it suit her and, more importantly, now she expects that someone will pay for her to come back, after the first trip is already being paid for by her mom.

I'm glad that you and another poster explained the Llama Llama book; however, I still think that because it specifically had to be that ONE and not Llama Llama Red Pajamas, etc. that she meant it as more of a dig than anything else.

Regarding the trans books - here is my thought process: I have a cousin who happens to be openly gay. I think that he is one of the most amazing people I know. If it turned out that my daughter felt she was more attracted to women or perhaps felt that she identified more as male than female, I know that my cousin would offer her any support or guidance she needed and her father and I would accept her and love her the same.

I think my problem is my SIL's approach and the fact that [knowing her personally] I know she loves to harp on pop culture subjects like this. I believe we can teach our daughter love and acceptance without having to go into the specifics of a male who identifies as female and vice versa at such an early age.

Also, when my siblings and I were growing up we were encouraged to have open conversation with my mom about subjects like this. My mom didn't just hand us a book and say, 'Let me know if you have any questions'. I guess I am glad that books like this exist for others who aren't as comfortable talking about these things, but they don't fit for us.

---------------------------------Anticipating a quote fail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that you want your kid to only read about fairy tales, and that will happen as they get older. I wish my toddler is logical enough to communicate with me about all things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads. However, until they are older, educational books ( I use that term broadly, and I don't think I have ever seen a toddler/ baby book that isn't educational - even if it only teaches them different sounds that animals make) are a very helpful way to teach babies and toddlers about all things -- things like emotions, how to understand their emotions and express their emotions, or even other things that they do not encounter on day to day basis (my toddler knows names of all different types of dinosaurs - I am not sure how I could have taught him that without educational books).

Lastly, I don't just hand him books and tell him to ask me questions if he has any. It is also not true that I use these books because I am 'uncomfortable talking about these topics'. I gave him "It takes two to tango", not because I can't have an open communication about same sex marriage, but to let him know that it is a topic that he can discuss and to show him that those couples and their kids aren't any different than us. I don't plan to sit him down and talk to him about gay marriage out of nowhere. but when he notices that someone in his class or school has two moms or two dads, I can remind him about the story of the two penguins and how it is just as normal as having a mom and a dad.

Personally, I think it's too confusing of an issue to introduce to someone who doesn't even know how they were created yet.

I mean, when my child is older I will 100% talk to them about it, but I don't want to start that young.

Educational in like common values, stealing is bad, this how to tie your shoe etc at that age seem much more appropriate and realistic.

DrillSergeantCat · October 2015

Monkeybutt80 said:

---------------------------------Anticipating a quote fail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand that you want your kid to only read about fairy tales, and that will happen as they get older. I wish my toddler is logical enough to communicate with me about all things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads. However, until they are older, educational books ( I use that term broadly, and I don't think I have ever seen a toddler/ baby book that isn't educational - even if it only teaches them different sounds that animals make) are a very helpful way to teach babies and toddlers about all things -- things like emotions, how to understand their emotions and express their emotions, or even other things that they do not encounter on day to day basis (my toddler knows names of all different types of dinosaurs - I am not sure how I could have taught him that without educational books).
Lastly, I don't just hand him books and tell him to ask me questions if he has any. It is also not true that I use these books because I am 'uncomfortable talking about these topics'. I gave him "It takes two to tango", not because I can't have an open communication about same sex marriage, but to let him know that it is a topic that he can discuss and to show him that those couples and their kids aren't any different than us. I don't plan to sit him down and talk to him about gay marriage out of nowhere. but when he notices that someone in his class or school has two moms or two dads, I can remind him about the story of the two penguins and how it is just as normal as having a mom and a dad.

Even fairy tales have educational aspects. I totally agree that "Two to Tango" is not really explaining anything about same sex marriage. It's about normalizing what they might see, just like you said.

Monkeybutt80 · October 2015

@thisusername First, my disclaimer is that whatever and however you chose to teach your kid is solely up to the parents and I absolutely respect that.

I became involved in this topic/ thread because this was something my husband and I thought about and made a conscientious decision on how we want to teach our child, so that as he grows up and encounters people outside of our immediate social circle, he is accepting of all types of people. And also because we want him to be accepted as someone of a mixed race and not feel different from other kids at school.

I think it becomes too confusing when you introduce it later in life as if these groups of people are outliers/uncommon phenomenon that needs explaining; like explaining "how babies are created". When you expose your toddlers and children to these topics as you introduce any other normal topics like farm animals and other stories with a mom and a dad, it normalizes these topics and no longer becomes a "topic" you have explain. I am not saying this is the only way, but this is what my husband and I thought would be a good way to teach our children.

OctoberStars · October 2015

Will you expose your kid to fairy tales where a prince saves a princess? That's no different than the penguin book. It's just exposing your kid to the various types of families that exist in real life. How could this possibly be inappropriate?

MamaFroFro · October 2015

@Monkeybutt80 =D> =D> =D>

notasycophant · October 2015

@thisusername , how are tolerance and acceptance not apart of common values? How is normalizing love and acceptance unrealistic?

katec4vt · October 2015

I'm glad that this topic has gotten lots of feedback, but I want to go back to some previous points that I made:

1- I have a cousin who is openly gay, so while this penguin book may have worked for some of you, I don't need a book about two daddy penguins for my child to be exposed to homosexuality. She'll be exposed to it anyway because my cousin is a part of my life and someone who I think she could learn valuable life lessons from.

2- "I understand that you want your kid to only read about fairy tales, and that will happen as they get older. I wish my toddler is logical enough to communicate with me about all things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads. However, until they are older, educational books ( I use that term broadly, and I don't think I have ever seen a toddler/ baby book that isn't educational - even if it only teaches them different sounds that animals make) are a very helpful way to teach babies and toddlers about all things -- things like emotions, how to understand their emotions and express their emotions, or even other things that they do not encounter on day to day basis (my toddler knows names of all different types of dinosaurs - I am not sure how I could have taught him that without educational books)."

I agree that young children aren't logical enough to communicate about things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads; so if we can't expect children to be able to communicate this to us, why are we trying to communicate it to them via a book?

What this all really boils down to is that I think purchasing books for my unborn child about gender identity and expressing emotions is premature. When these topics come up, if I find that my husband and I can't do a reasonable enough job communicating with our daughter about these subjects then perhaps we will use the books to aid our efforts. Until that happens, I don't see any need in having them and will absolutely reject them.

I'd like to suggest that we have had purchased for us books such as "We're going on a bear hunt", "Madeline", "The Very Hungry Caterpillar", "Charlotte's Web", "Goodnight Moon", etc. that I will not be rejecting.

To the point of whether I'll be offering my daughter books about men rescuing women, frankly, I'd rather she learn to take care of herself - but whatever. At least that issue isn't blatantly polarizing for the majority of people.

OctoberStars · October 2015

My point wasn't about men saving women. It's the fact that almost every fairy tale involves a relationship between a man and a woman. A story with same sex protagonists in a relationship does not make it any more "educational" than any other book (ps literally any book is educational, particularity for little kids). You might as well be saying that feminism is too mature a concept for a young child so you will be avoiding books with female protagonists.

Monkeybutt80 · October 2015

katec4vt said:

I'm glad that this topic has gotten lots of feedback, but I want to go back to some previous points that I made:

1- I have a cousin who is openly gay, so while this penguin book may have worked for some of you, I don't need a book about two daddy penguins for my child to be exposed to homosexuality. She'll be exposed to it anyway because my cousin is a part of my life and someone who I think she could learn valuable life lessons from.

2- "I understand that you want your kid to only read about fairy tales, and that will happen as they get older. I wish my toddler is logical enough to communicate with me about all things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads. However, until they are older, educational books ( I use that term broadly, and I don't think I have ever seen a toddler/ baby book that isn't educational - even if it only teaches them different sounds that animals make) are a very helpful way to teach babies and toddlers about all things -- things like emotions, how to understand their emotions and express their emotions, or even other things that they do not encounter on day to day basis (my toddler knows names of all different types of dinosaurs - I am not sure how I could have taught him that without educational books)."

I agree that young children aren't logical enough to communicate about things like expressing emotions and why so and so has two dads; so if we can't expect children to be able to communicate this to us, why are we trying to communicate it to them via a book?

What this all really boils down to is that I think purchasing books for my unborn child about gender identity and expressing emotions is premature. When these topics come up, if I find that my husband and I can't do a reasonable enough job communicating with our daughter about these subjects then perhaps we will use the books to aid our efforts. Until that happens, I don't see any need in having them and will absolutely reject them.

I'd like to suggest that we have had purchased for us books such as "We're going on a bear hunt", "Madeline", "The Very Hungry Caterpillar", "Charlotte's Web", "Goodnight Moon", etc. that I will not be rejecting.

To the point of whether I'll be offering my daughter books about men rescuing women, frankly, I'd rather she learn to take care of herself - but whatever. At least that issue isn't blatantly polarizing for the majority of people.

to answer your question in the highlighted part: To teach them. That's the whole purpose. With your logic, you should never teach your child the alphabets if she/he doesn't already know them.

katec4vt · October 2015

@OctoberStars you literally posted, "Will you expose your kid to fairy tales where a prince saves a princess?". I can't read into your point any more than what you type - which was a man saving a woman. And yes, I do think that feminism is too mature a concept for a baby/toddler; however, that does not mean I will be avoiding books with female protagonists. I simply don't believe that having a female protagonist needs to translate into educating my daughter about feminism as a baby/toddler. I don't really think what I'm trying to say is that difficult to wrap one's head around, but let's all read way more into that than the text that's printed on the screen.

katec4vt · October 2015

@Monkeybutt80 I was simply pointing out that you contradicted yourself first stating that your toddler wasn't logical enough to communicate with you about expressing emotions, so and so with two dads; then reinforcing that the books are helpful to teach babies and toddlers about those things. It seems to me that you were suggesting that your toddler isn't logical enough to communicate about the subject, but is logical enough to understand it being communicated to him/her in the form of a book.

As for the point about teaching my child the alphabet, you are most certainly reaching to make your own point. Of course I'm going to teach my child the alphabet that she obviously won't already know. Thank you, in fact, for helping to make my point. The alphabet is EXACTLY the sort of thing that we SHOULD be teaching babies and toddlers. Leave the complex, [apparently] educational subjects like gender identity and expressing of emotions to be taught when the child is old enough to have logical communication about those subjects.

DrillSergeantCat · October 2015

katec4vt said:

@OctoberStars you literally posted, "Will you expose your kid to fairy tales where a prince saves a princess?". I can't read into your point any more than what you type - which was a man saving a woman. And yes, I do think that feminism is too mature a concept for a baby/toddler; however, that does not mean I will be avoiding books with female protagonists. I simply don't believe that having a female protagonist needs to translate into educating my daughter about feminism as a baby/toddler. I don't really think what I'm trying to say is that difficult to wrap one's head around, but let's all read way more into that than the text that's printed on the screen.

I think it's less about "educating" and more about normalizing situations, though. It's not really "teaching" them about homo/heterosexuality or cis/transgenderism, it's making it a normal thing to encounter so that those questions probably won't ever be asked. Like there's a book written for young children about where babies come from; if they are read that book, then the question of where babies come from won't be asked because it's just a normal thing for them.

Achae · October 2015

katec4vt said:

@OctoberStars you literally posted, "Will you expose your kid to fairy tales where a prince saves a princess?". I can't read into your point any more than what you type - which was a man saving a woman. And yes, I do think that feminism is too mature a concept for a baby/toddler; however, that does not mean I will be avoiding books with female protagonists. I simply don't believe that having a female protagonist needs to translate into educating my daughter about feminism as a baby/toddler. I don't really think what I'm trying to say is that difficult to wrap one's head around, but let's all read way more into that than the text that's printed on the screen.

katec4vt · October 2015

@DrillSergeantCat If the purpose of the books is to normalize things my daughter might encounter then I still fail to see why I need them. As I've stated before, she will be exposed from birth to a homosexual couple. No, this doesn't impact her exposure to a transgender person, but most of what everyone has been posting about is children with same sex parents anyway [an issue of sexuality, not gender identity].

Also, I'm not okay with my daughter not asking questions about these topics. I said before that my husband and I want to encourage open communication between the three of us. I don't like the idea of a book making these things "normal to encounter so that those questions probably won't ever be asked." I also won't be giving her a book on where babies come from. Again, she and I can have an open discussion about that.

brushesnbrunch · October 2015

These books are one way to achieve that open communication/discussion you are wanting...

katec4vt · October 2015

Sorry, @brushesnbrunch, but according to @DrillSergeantCat they are actually a way of making these things "normal to encounter so that those questions probably won't ever be asked."

I, for one, would like to know HOW on earth ANYONE survived parenting before books about gender identity, expressing emotions, and [now we'll throw in] where babies come from existed.

Oh, and yes I know that now I am just being hormonal

(

dragonfly321 · October 2015

So. When SIL gives you these books, throw them away or donate them.
If you feel that your cousin is going to provide adequate knowledge of homosexual relationships that your child needs, then that is the way your child will learn.
Personally, and this is my never had a kid before logic coming out... Simplifying things to a child's point of view is easier and more effectively done with children's books than saying "that's the way it is because we say so".

SN: What is this penguin book called? I need to add it to my list.

Monkeybutt80 · October 2015

katec4vt said:

@OctoberStars you literally posted, "Will you expose your kid to fairy tales where a prince saves a princess?". I can't read into your point any more than what you type - which was a man saving a woman. And yes, I do think that feminism is too mature a concept for a baby/toddler; however, that does not mean I will be avoiding books with female protagonists. I simply don't believe that having a female protagonist needs to translate into educating my daughter about feminism as a baby/toddler. I don't really think what I'm trying to say is that difficult to wrap one's head around, but let's all read way more into that than the text that's printed on the screen.

@katec4vt I have not been able to understand your position on these books so far, but your response to Octoberstars has shed some light. I think you have a misunderstanding about the type of books we have been discussing. When and if your SIL gives you one about trans gender, I encourage you to read it yourself, before deciding whether or not you want the book available to your child , instead of simply rejecting it or tossing it.

When you read your child a book about a strong female protagonist character, you are teaching your child about feminism. It doesn't mean that you sit her down and talk about feminism 101 like a college course. By reading these books, it simply teaches your child that both male and female can take the lead role in real life and that there is no specific "gender roles" for either. Similarly, I doubt that these transgender books talk about sex changes or anything like that (most of the times for these books, they don't even use people as characters - it may simply be about a red ball wanting to be blue) , it probably simply teaches them that some people feel like their appearance do not match their inside and that it's ok to feel that way.

Want a personalized experience?

Is my sister-in-law inconsiderate or am I just hormonal?

Re: Is my sister-in-law inconsiderate or am I just hormonal?

Choose Another Board

Search Boards