Hash It Out Thread

BabyIntegers · July 2015

To avoid hijacking someone else's thread that they started, I'll post about it here:

@LadyMillil Can you explain to me why waiting until your children start school to have them vaccinated puts them at risk as well as the other children? Is there a time window after vaccination that I'm not aware of? If so, can you please provide your scientific source for that information? I didn't say they start school and then vaccinate them after the fact.

Also, I had the MMR vaccine and still got the Measles and so did my sister. I've also never had a flu shot or a pneumonia vaccine. I've never contracted either and I work in healthcare in direct patient care. I'm in isolation rooms all of the time and have never contracted anything. Maybe I fit into a small percentage of people, but I certainly did not say that I'm not going to vaccinate my kids at all but all of you are assuming that. Why?!

You are telling me to educate myself. I plan to do that. That's why I'm asking questions. Please don't make assumptions about me or call me selfish when you haven't asked me any questions about my line of thought and make an attempt to get to know me.

Since you and several others seem to know so much about vaccinations, I'm all ears. Educate me with scientific sources.

letyourheartbeyourguide · July 2015

I don't understand why this is yet another single purpose thread, instead of staying in context with the overall discussion thread, but I'll bite.

BabyIntegers said:
Can you explain to me why waiting until your children start school to have them vaccinated puts them at risk as well as the other children? Is there a time window after vaccination that I'm not aware of? If so, can you please provide your scientific source for that information? I didn't say they start school and then vaccinate them after the fact.

I'm just gonna address this first question for the moment. If you wait until your kid starts school to vaccinate them, they are at risk the entire time until they are vaccinated. So whether you mean school as pre-school or school as kindergarten, you're talking years of taking your kid into public places without being vaccinated. Unless you plan on them being a bubble kid.

Second, even if your kid isn't obviously sick they could be a carrier for diseases that they aren't vaccinated against. So every time you take that kid out in public (unless, again, they're a bubble kid) you risk exposing others to that disease - others who have compromised immune systems, who are unable to be vaccinated due to age or health reasons, etc. This was already mentioned by the posters in the other thread - again why it would make more sense to keep the discussion in one place.

beachbunnyxo123 · July 2015

I'm not sure about the context of the previous thread but to answer your question about not being vaccinated putting others at risk... I'm honestly surprised that you work in healthcare providing direct patient care and do not HAVE to even get a flu shot? I'm a marriage and family therapist in an outpatient setting and if I don't get a flu shot I can't work (I work as a part of a hospital system but not in the hospital) and even then I have to get vaccinated. Reason being is to prevent the spread of the flu for myself and for others. Area of concern is if you are working with patients whose immune systems are comprised and you haven't been vaccinated you can pass on communicable illnesses to them that your body was strong enough to fight and theirs is not. I'm not sure what kind of work you do but like I said I'm surprised there is no policy on vaccinations without a medical exemption. Same goes for children, if a child isn't vaccinated it is very common for illnesses to spread especially among children who cannot be vaccinated especially for medical reasons.

I'm not by any means saying what should or shouldn't be done as that's not my place to say and I'm not one for debates but I just wanted to provide some information on the topic as explained from a healthcare organizations perspective

Everycol0r · July 2015

cattlebride · July 2015

Was another thread necessary?

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@letyourheartbeyourguide Well, it's not against guidelines to make my own thread and I was doing out of consideration for the others who are contributing to a GTKY thread. My choice.

But thanks for the elaborate explanation. I've never thought of someone being just a carrier of something. I remember a military couple I met in MD when I lived there in Annapolis awhile back. The wife kept getting strep throat over and over again. They found out that her husband was a carrier and was getting her sick. So there's that.

Still though, and bear with me (I'm a skeptic by nature and highly inquisitive as this is how I educate myself), can't someone be tested to see if they are a carrier?

My other thoughts, there are other communicable diseases out there, even STDs. People ask others for their lab work all of the time before having sex. Why couldn't it be the same with other communicable diseases? If you are around the same people all of the time, I don't think that would be too difficult. Of course I wouldn't put my children in a bubble.

Regarding public places, is the concern more about your children contracting a disease or spreading one?

cattlebride · July 2015

Google vaccines and you will find a ton a scientific support for young children getting vaccinated both for thier protection and others. Also Google herd immunity for more information.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@beachbunnyxo123 Thanks for that. I work in a hospital in Los Angeles, CA. If we don't have the flu vaccine, we are only required to wear a mask during flu season.

I was reading the area of concern perspective you typed above. So, if your body was strong enough to fight off something but they never showed symptoms of the flu, they are still a carrier of the flu and can pass it on? I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@LittleCountry, thank you for taking the time to post something with scientific references. I appreciate that and will read it right now.

LoveIsOwlYouNeed · July 2015

Measles can kill small children who have weaker immune systems. Or it can leave them deaf. These diseases can have horrible impacts so why would you wait to protect your child from that. There is no scientific evidence that vaccines cause harm, they prevent it so again, why wait?

As for other kids, some people can't be vaccinated--babies under 1 can't have the MMR (for no other reason that their body simply won't respond to it, not because it's dangerous) and some people have immune systems that won't allow them to be immunized. They rely on everyone else getting immunized so the diseases don't run rampant and they aren't exposed. It's called herd immunity. Some people don't like the term "herd," but it's the term for large groups of people.

If you got measles, it was probably not a strong strand of it because Of herd immunity or you got a milder case than it could have been because your vaccine worked to a certain degree just not fully.

I could go on, but I won't, for now.

ETA: totally missed the original post so sorry if I am repeating or missing something.

cattlebride · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:
@beachbunnyxo123 Thanks for that. I work in a hospital in Los Angeles, CA. If we don't have the flu vaccine, we are only required to wear a mask during flu season.

I was reading the area of concern perspective you typed above. So, if your body was strong enough to fight off something but they never showed symptoms of the flu, they are still a carrier of the flu and can pass it on? I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

Yes. The flu in a healthy adult or child could be something as simple as fever and body aches for 24-48 hours. You are contagious and can pass it on before symptoms manifest. We are in a town of 800 people and had 6 flu related deaths in our community. Two of those were children. 5 of those people who died were not vaccinated.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@CherylAnn789, please do go on. It's an interesting subject to me and I understand that it's highly controversial.

I remember getting the measles. It was horrible. My outcome may have been better because my Mom was a nurse. I had really good supportive care.

I've never heard of "herd immunity". I will google it now. Thanks.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@cattlebride Oh OK. So if you don't have a fever or body aches, then you can still have the flu without any symptoms?

LoveIsOwlYouNeed · July 2015

@BabyIntegers If I may ask, why would you delay the vaccines? Again, I missed the original thread (and am too lazy to find it

)

I don't mean to sound mean, so I hope this comes out right, but I just don't understand why you wouldn't do it when medical and scientific professionals who have years of education and experience recommend. I assume if you get a BFP, you will take prenatals, avoid alcohol, limit caffeine etc. So...why question the pros on this? Genuinely curious.

letyourheartbeyourguide · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:
Still though, and bear with me (I'm a skeptic by nature and highly inquisitive as this is how I educate myself), can't someone be tested to see if they are a carrier?

My other thoughts, there are other communicable diseases out there, even STDs. People ask others for their lab work all of the time before having sex. Why couldn't it be the same with other communicable diseases? If you are around the same people all of the time, I don't think that would be too difficult.

So on a daily basis you're going to test them for measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, chicken pox, polio, hepatitis a and b, and the flu? Even if that were technically possible, how is that rationally feasible?

You're not around only the same people every day. Every time you leave the house your child would be at risk - the supermarket, the playground, starbucks, day care, anywhere. And every time you take your unvaccinated child into these places you put other people at risk, whether you know them or not.

cattlebride · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:
@cattlebride Oh OK. So if you don't have a fever or body aches, then you can still have the flu without any symptoms?

Typically for the flu/ or respitory influenza a and b symptoms can be as mild as a cold, example sinsus pressure and general fatigue cough, to the more common symptoms of high fever, body aches, malaise clear up to severe respitory distress, staff infections in the lungs, migraines, and dangerously high core body temps. Some people spread it without thinking they have anything more than a cold. It's highly frustrating for health care workers. Especially those working with high risk patients. This is why I soapbox on vaccines. It's mostly personal experience not online data for me. I personally have not seen a carrier without some at least mild symptoms showing.

Jizzill · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:
@letyourheartbeyourguide Well, it's not against guidelines to make my own thread and I was doing out of consideration for the others who are contributing to a GTKY thread. My choice.

But thanks for the elaborate explanation. I've never thought of someone being just a carrier of something. I remember a military couple I met in MD when I lived there in Annapolis awhile back. The wife kept getting strep throat over and over again. They found out that her husband was a carrier and was getting her sick. So there's that.

Still though, and bear with me (I'm a skeptic by nature and highly inquisitive as this is how I educate myself), can't someone be tested to see if they are a carrier?

My other thoughts, there are other communicable diseases out there, even STDs. People ask others for their lab work all of the time before having sex. Why couldn't it be the same with other communicable diseases? If you are around the same people all of the time, I don't think that would be too difficult. Of course I wouldn't put my children in a bubble.

Regarding public places, is the concern more about your children contracting a disease or spreading one?

Are you saying it is reasonable to ask for people's documentation of being diseased/disease free? Yes, this IS unreasonable. (ETA: absolutely, insanely unreasonable).

When it comes to public spaces, it is socially responsible to be concerned both with contracting OR spreading diseases. Why would you want to risk infecting young children, elderly or immune-compromised people??

letyourheartbeyourguide · July 2015

I would understand this objection more if you were in the delusional Dr. Jenny McCarthy vaccines-cause-autism camp. But to say, I'm gonna wait because I personally don't think it's necessary is just extremely uninformed.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@CherylAnn789 In the other thread I said that I'll admit I don't know much about this topic. I only know that it's controversial (not said in the other thread). I'm not one of those fanatic people (not said in the other thread).

Also in the other thread, I said that is just what my Mom did with us. Information was limited in the 80s. I am aware of that.

When I do get a BFP, I won't be taking a pre-natal vitamin unless my vitamin panels show a problem. I eat whole foods and have vitamin panels done all of the time. My RE (fertility specialist) at Cedars Sinai did tell me that I would need to take Folic Acid so I will. I may also have to take Iron but that's not for sure.

Other than that, I barely drink anything with caffeine as it is. I pretty much quit as of last year because it increases anxiety. Also, I haven't consumed alcohol in years.

I always question. I don't care who it is. It's just my nature. I'm not so arrogant to think that I know everything so this is how I learn; by having intelligent discussions. Your tone is not mean. Thanks for saying that. I don't think anyone's is really. I just don't like it when people make assumptions. I don't think it's productive.

Whovian10 · July 2015

https://m.cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/7/911.full

Some info on herd immunity. An example would be that since healthy children have the vaccine those who are immune compromised are protected due to the prevention is disease spread.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@Jizzil You are making assumptions. I never said I would want to risk infecting young children, elderly or immune-compromised people, did I? No. I didn't. At least I don't think I did.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@letyourheartbeyourguide That's a very valid point. I like to have my ideas challenged so thank you.

Jizzill · July 2015

@BabyIntegers you keep referring to 'the other' thread. That's why starting a new one is silly.

LoveIsOwlYouNeed · July 2015

letyourheartbeyourguide said:

I would understand this objection more if you were in the delusional Dr. Jenny McCarthy vaccines-cause-autism camp. But to say, I'm gonna wait because I personally don't think it's necessary is just extremely uninformed.

Ug...just seeing that name is like...

BabyIntegers · July 2015

letyourheartbeyourguide said:

I would understand this objection more if you were in the delusional Dr. Jenny McCarthy vaccines-cause-autism camp. But to say, I'm gonna wait because I personally don't think it's necessary is just extremely uninformed.

I never said that. Again, assumptions. Can you not stop making assumptions? lol Slow down woman!

BabyIntegers · July 2015

Jizzill said:

@BabyIntegers you keep referring to 'the other' thread. That's why starting a new one is silly.

She made reference to the "other thread" and I replied. This thread is happening so . . . contribute or don't. Your choice. :x

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@Whovian10, thanks for the link regarding herd immunity. I have a couple to read now.

Jizzill · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:

Jizzill said:

@BabyIntegers you keep referring to 'the other' thread. That's why starting a new one is silly.

This thread is happening so . . . contribute or don't. Your choice. :x

Already did. And as far as

BabyIntegers said:
@Jizzil You are making assumptions. I never said I would want to risk infecting young children, elderly or immune-compromised people, did I? No. I didn't. At least I don't think I did.

It's rhetorical.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@Jizzill, I know a pot stirrer when I see one and as an intelligent, mature, drama free woman, I will have no part in it. I'm done acknowledging you.

LoveIsOwlYouNeed · July 2015

@BabyIntegers, I still don't understand WHY, I'm sorry. You said your experience having measles was horrible...why wouldn't you want to protect your child from that? I would want to protect my LOs from all the horrible experiences I've had, even the ones I know I can't block, like having your heart broken. There are ways to prevent children from experiencing horrible diseases that have horrible side effects and consequences and the means of preventing them are safe. So...why not? I personally just don't understand that.

letyourheartbeyourguide · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:

letyourheartbeyourguide said:

I would understand this objection more if you were in the delusional Dr. Jenny McCarthy vaccines-cause-autism camp. But to say, I'm gonna wait because I personally don't think it's necessary is just extremely uninformed.

I never said that. Again, assumptions. Can you not stop making assumptions? lol Slow down woman!

---------- edit quote box fail ---------------
What exactly am I assuming?

This is what you wrote in the other thread about waiting until school age:
"That's what my Mom did with us, she waited until right before we went to school for the first time to get us vaccinated."

So, if you want to wait until school age to vaccinate rather than earlier, this means you don't think it's necessary to vaccinate earlier than school age. That's not an assumption, it's literally what you said.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@CherylAnn789 I really didn't think anything of it at the time. I was just answering a questionnaire. I'm slowly changing my mind, but I still must understand something in depth before I make that decision. Thanks for hanging in there with me. I completely understand where you are coming from. Of course I would want to protect my children. This is the first time I've ever given it any intelligent thought. I have only been TTC for two cycles now but more seriously 1 cycle since I started temping.

mrsespigreen · July 2015

How is it that you work in the health system and NOT know the medical benefits of vaccines/ consequences if they do not get vaccinated?

BabyIntegers · July 2015

letyourheartbeyourguide said:

letyourheartbeyourguide said:

I would understand this objection more if you were in the delusional Dr. Jenny McCarthy vaccines-cause-autism camp. But to say, I'm gonna wait because I personally don't think it's necessary is just extremely uninformed.

I never said that. Again, assumptions. Can you not stop making assumptions? lol Slow down woman!
---------- edit quote box fail --------------- What exactly am I assuming? This is what you wrote in the other thread about waiting until school age: "That's what my Mom did with us, she waited until right before we went to school for the first time to get us vaccinated." So, if you want to wait until school age to vaccinate rather than earlier, this means you don't think it's necessary to vaccinate earlier than school age. That's not an assumption, it's literally what you said.

Yes and then I said "I'll admit that I don't know anything about it." Give me a break here. There is more to what I said if you look at the convergence of thoughts. I'm not a robot.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

@ALittleCountry, because I like you and respect you (based on how you treat others here), I will take your word for it.

josie12367 · July 2015

https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/vaccine_safety/science.htm-

https://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf -A 21 page PDF from the American Academy of Pediatrics

https://www.nfid.org/about-vaccines/reasons

https://www.cdc.gov/features/ReasonsToVaccinate/

https://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20150129/vaccination-choice-measles?page=2

All of these links are from five minutes of spending time on Google....you can also try Google Scholar There is tons of information out there. As for why the MMR did not work on you...Look up "titers" Hep A & B, MMR, and such have what is called titers. If you have a positive titer then you have built up an immunity in your system to those particular diseases. MMR has three different titers in it because it is a combination vaccine, you can have a positive titer on one part, and a negative on another (Measles (AKA: Rubeola),Mumps, & Rubella). They will attempt to immunize you again if you have a negative titer, but sometimes it just doesn't work. I have a negative titer on one part of mine, and have had an MMR booster four times now in my lifetime. You could possibly have a negative titer as well. It should be part of your lab work up once you're pregnant. So you can ask specifically then....

The links above are just general information about vaccines and immunizations in general. The link below is an example of the MMR titer results that I was discussing above. It is a fake lab sheet that would help explain your results should you get your titers drawn at some point.

https://web.csulb.edu/colleges/chhs/departments/nursing/docs/TiterandVaccinationInformation_000.pdf

Lastly, we can't just ask to see people's immunity or titers to diseases, or disease history for our own personal agendas what ever good intentions we might have. It violates HIPAA....since you're in healthcare, I would assume that you know exactly what i'm talking about

Hope this helps....If not, Google is always your friend!

DISCLAIMER: I did not read the original thread, and have no clue what the issue was.....just trying to be helpful

LadyMillil · July 2015

I'm on mobile right now and don't have the time to type out a long response with scientific sources. I'm a viral immunologist with advanced degrees in both microbiology and immunology. When it comes to infections and the immune system I know exactly what I'm talking about. Start with reading Janeway's Immunobiology.

JessicaB0627 · July 2015

BabyIntegers said:
@Jizzil You are making assumptions. I never said I would want to risk infecting young children, elderly or immune-compromised people, did I? No. I didn't. At least I don't think I did.

You never said you would "want" to risk infecting them, but if you choose to delay vaccinations then you very well could.
What do you think of when you think of an immune compromised person? Obviously babies, elderly, and the sick. But what you may not realize is that people whom are seemingly healthy may have a compromised immune system as well. My mom looks very healthy from the outside, but she has an autoimmune disorder which requires her to take immuno-suppressants every day, putting her at a huge risk of getting sick in public. She can't even be around her own granddaughter when she has a cold because she could contract it and it may take her 3 weeks to get over it.
If you genuinely want to learn more about vaccines and why they are important then you need to look at some published scientific journal articles, because I can guarantee you that they all say the same thing. Maybe look at an immunology book.
If I know that a family member or friend has not had their child vaccinated, I choose to not have DD around them. It is not worth finding out if my child can contract a disease from them (that they may not show any symptoms of) because their parents are too proud to get their children vaccinated. I'm not trying to sound mean, but preventing my child from dying from a completely preventable disease is actually kind of important to me.

KaaaaaatieRN · July 2015

"I've also never had a flu shot or a pneumonia vaccine. I've never contracted either and I work in healthcare in direct patient care. I'm in isolation rooms all of the time and have never contracted anything."

You're in isolation rooms all the time, huh? I assume you have a cute little isolation kit hanging on the door with PPE ready for you before you walk in the door, right? You know a patient has the flu so you take droplet precautions. You know a patient has C-Diff, so you gown and glove and may wear a mask depending on what you're doing when you enter the room. You know a patient has TB so you gown, glove, mask, and put on eye shields. You know a patient has MRSA of the nares so you throw on a pair of gloves and a gown.

These are the reasons you haven't "contracted" anything. Do you plan on gowning and gloving your children every day?

Oh, boy. I'm getting ragey and I'm feeling a post it happening.

BabyIntegers · July 2015

LadyMillil said:

I'm on mobile right now and don't have the time to type out a long response with scientific sources. I'm a viral immunologist with advanced degrees in both microbiology and immunology. When it comes to infections and the immune system I know exactly what I'm talking about. Start with reading Janeway's Immunobiology.

That's what I'm talking about. Thank you Lady Millil for chiming in. I will go read it right away. I love science!

BabyIntegers · July 2015

KaaaaaatieRN That's a very good point. I didn't think of that. No need to get ragey. I'm not ragey. I'm just trying to have a calm, honest conversation here amongst adults. Why would you become ragey?

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TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

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