@devonsd315 I completely agree with what you are saying and I will be vaccinating my child. My only point is that due to the fact that kids get almost twice as many doses now than they did in the 80s, maybe that is cause for concern. Especially since there is a lot of money to be made off of these vaccines.
I find it hard to believe that unnecessary vaccines would be given simply to allow pharmaceutical companies to make money. I live in England where these vaccines are free and as such are paid for by the government (albeit through our taxes) and I would be amazed if they would spend a penny more on something unecessary than what they deem as needed. I have a friend with terminal cancer who had to travel to Germany to pay for a new treatment because the government didn't deem his life worth enough to spend money on this treatment via the NHS so as I said, coming from a country where it costs the government to vaccinate is it doesn't make any sense that we are given free vaccines if there sole purpose was to feed the pockets of big businesses.
While I am a pro-vaxxer I think some of the points @abaume makes do make you think and encourage research so you can feel you are making the best decisions for your family and the community. I think there are a lot of contributing factors to why we are fatter and sicker and there's no harm in questioning why that is. I appreciate that we can have these conversations because even as a mom of almost three I'm always learning new things. FTMs especially to question and want facts honestly I feel they are way ahead of the game than I was as a FTM and that's great.
@devonsd315 I am not saying that medical professionals are to blame, I should clarify that the pharmaceutical companies are who I was eluding to. I should have made that clear, they are the ones who are going to profit in this situation.
@mollypuss1 I am saying that the pharmaceutical companies in America are very profit driven. Have you seen the advertising they do here in the states? Now let me preface this with the statement that there are many hard working scientists, docs etc trying to help people out there. There are also many people overly medicated and pharmaceutical companies more than happy to be the pushers of these drugs.
@mollypuss1 That is only because people did not vaccinate their kids. My point was the 23 doses that the kids who did get vaccinated worked. Why so many extra doses now? I am not against vaccines just concerned about the amount doubling!
Exactly! Mumps and measles still existed in the 1980's and there was an outbreak due to parents not vaccinating their children, something which will, and is, happening again for the exact same reasons. Surely we should learn from the mistakes of our forefathers?
Why have vaccines doubled? My guess, because science has moved forward in the last 30 years and we can now protect our children better through the development of more vaccines? I don't know about the USA but In England we are about to start vaccinating our children against meningitis, something which can't come soon enough for me, if this extra vaccine stops the horrific deaths or lifelong consequences this disease inflicts upon children then bring it on! Why didn't kids get it in the 1980's? Simply because it didn't exist.
@mollypuss1 I am saying that the pharmaceutical companies in America are very profit driven. Have you seen the advertising they do here in the states? Now let me preface this with the statement that there are many hard working scientists, docs etc trying to help people out there. There are also many people overly medicated and pharmaceutical companies more than happy to be the pushers of these drugs.
I get that, but why would we in the UK be offered the same vaccines if they were not needed and it is the government paying for them, that doesn't make sense
@MelMel92 I did not take anything you said as bullying. This is a tough topic to talk about. It's a scary thing and we are all worried about our future children. I get that antibiotics are different, my point was if those are overprescribed is it such a stretch that vaccines may be also? Fair enough question right? Again, I will totally be vaccinating my child. I will just be asking a lot of questions in the process. It's not the vaccines that concern me it is the amount. I guess I should have said that more clearly in the beginning.
@abaume I understand what you are saying. However, my brother and sister-in-law work for pharmaceutical companies. I think the work they do to bring new drugs or tests to market is not driven solely by profit. Do they want to earn good paychecks to pay off their degrees and provide for their children? Of course! However, they go to work every day because they love their jobs and know the work they do can prevent disease in the future.
My point about my brothers (who are doctors) not making a dime on vaccines is that they will still recommend them, even if they don't make any more money off of them. To me, this says that even if some pharmaceutical company is making a small amount of money on every vaccine they sell, it doesn't mean that is the reason doctors are prescribing them. They're prescribing them because they believe they work and save lives.
I don't for a second think that "big pharma" is some perfect benevolent entity that is not out to make money. But keep in mind that they people who are working at those companies 1) still need to work and make a paycheck like the rest of us, and 2) most likely care deeply about the work they do to improve people's lives.
@devonsd315 I totally get what you are saying and I feel like we have gotten a little off topic. What I am saying is the pharmaceutical companies are not a benevolent perfect system. A lot of what they do is to make money. They court doctors and convince them to prescribe certian drugs. The amount they spend on advertising and conventions is outrageous. In England you can't advertise prescription drugs on television. Why is that? Again I am not saying that doctors are to blame. I am just saying we over do it in America with the meds. So it makes me suspicious that we could be doing the same with vaccines.
@mollypuss1 Your vaccine schedule is slower than here in the states right? Also how many doses do your kids get total before age six?
In Canada children get vaccines at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 12 months, 2 years, and then one set at age 4 before starting school ... So 6 sets of needles before age 6 ! And then flu shot if you want, it's not mandatory.
@mollypuss1 Again I realize that there are new vaccines now. Doubling the amount seems aggressive to me though. Also, how many vaccines are to many? Does there come a point of diminishing returns in this area. There will always be new things to vaccinate against but at what point does the amount of vaccinations become unsafe for a small child to process?
In short, there are more diseases that are being prevented now. I think this is a good thing!
Personally, I also had chicken pox and ended up fine. But I now have the possibility of shingles in the future, as does everyone who has had chicken pox. The chicken pox vaccine will also prevent shingles, so my children will be getting it.
I agree that never exposing a child to things that it's immune system needs to fight against will lead to allergies. But, aren't vaccines exposing your child's immune system to things it needs to fight against, but also in a dose that it is sure to win, unlike actually contracting something like pertussis or measles?
Yes, very few people got measles in the 1980's. Unfortunately, that number is rising. When people don't vaccinate their children, herd immunity decreases, and the number of cases rise.
I think someone earlier mentioned a family member getting shingles at a young age, I got shingles 2 years ago at the age of 32 and it was awful. I had chicken pox as a kid and it wasn't that bad, but shingles was excruciatingly painful. If I could go back and get a vaccine and avoid that I would 100% do it, and will definitely spare my child that pain if I can.
I get that giving lots of shots to a little baby seems scary, but I think that the medical science is strong enough at this point to support it being worth it, as well as the benefits to others of herd immunity. I think a slower schedule is definitely better than not vaccinating at all if you are not comfortable with the normal schedule, but definitely I don't see any reason to take unnecessary risks in not vaccinating when there is so much evidence relating to the benefits.
I'm also glad to see how calm and rational this discussion has been.
@ameares721 Apparently when they were younger, my MIL thought it was a good idea to force DH and his sister around 4 kids who had chicken pox so they could 'get it over with". As a result, my husband got shingles when he was 17. The worst part about it is, she's a nurse! That being said, this child and any future children we have will be vaccinated. There are absolutely no cons to vaccines.
@dannie134 I agree I am glad this hasn't gotten ugly. I am mainly trying to play devils advocate here and get as much info as possible from you ladies. Thanks for being so civil and not burning me at the stake everyone. I feel much more informed and semi less worried!) This is a big deal and I just think it's important to question.
@dannie134 I agree I am glad this hasn't gotten ugly. I am mainly trying to play devils advocate here and get as much info as possible from you ladies. Thanks for being so civil and not burning me at the stake everyone. I feel much more informed and semi less worried!) This is a big deal and I just think it's important to question.
@abaume I haven't taken your tone as aggressive and think you are making reasonable points, I'm not getting the impression you're being selfish or stubborn just thinking it through and I think that's a good thing. It's absolutely a good idea to do your own research and be informed when making big decisions for your child/children. I like when there is back and forth and discussion in a rational way as I think we can all learn from that, and if no one is stating the other side then the conversation ends quickly and to me that is less interesting.
@abuame it seems like your big concern is the number of doses in a small amount of time. I think of lot of people worry about this, and you will see that there are lots of parents who vaccinate on a modified schedule to spread them out.
I would really encourage you to ask your doctor about it. You said you were in the military - I was before and like I said my brothers are military doctors. I think you are going to get a very unbiased answer as to why the current vaccine schedule is safe, or why your doctor thinks a modified schedule is better.
I would not be concerned about the number of doses increasing because the number of diseases we are being inoculated against is increasing. I can't think of how this is a big thing. Maybe there could be complications for getting them all at once, but I would guess that doctors wouldn't do it if there was research that suggests it is a harmful thing.
Just my two cents. If you can guess, I'm pretty passionate about this topic. I'm all for being informed, from the correct sources. Your doctor, the CDC, etc. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there and that is what is concerning to me.
I think another thing to take with a grain of salt about pharmaceutical companies (as a person who is also highly highly skeptical of a lot of the modern medicine "protocols," so I get where everyone who is nervous or has concerns about vaccines is coming from) is that while it can seem like they are making tons and tons of money off of drugs, they also have astronomical costs and expenses leading up to the sale of that drug. For every drug on the market, there are years and years of research going into failed attempts, refinement, USDA approval, and then marketing.
I think marketing is the most controversial expense as we like to think that our doctors should be able to know what is on the market, and best decide, not patients watching television, but I generally feel that that has more to do with our over all healthcare system, not the pharmaceutical companies themselves. Just a different angle to consider.
I know I have to be really careful that I don't connect things in my head that aren't actually connected. I remember a teacher first explaining fallacies to me in 11th grade, as I had made one based on an emotional response, and she wanted to challenge me to take my thinking to a deeper level and to fact check. Making connections is great, I just try to do tons of research to see if there is an actual correlation as there are so many other factors in things as well.
I work at a ped office and actually we don't even see patients that are against it. There are more pros than anything. And just FYI a lot of places don't let children who are not vaccinated to attend daycare and schools!.....Def vaccinate!!
I feel like I learned so much from this thread! I didn't even know I could ask for an adjusted vaccination schedule! And I didn't know that the chicken pox vaccine protected against shingles. There is so much to learn as a FTM and sometimes I don't even know the right questions to ask. So I'm grateful that we discuss all of this because I have had some major concerns about our LO getting more vaccines than we did. But I haven't thought about doing the research yet so this gave me some insightful information!
@shannons913 I'm going to be starting my pediatrician search here soon. This will be one of the first questions that I ask about their office. I will also ask about this at any play groups, other kids' homes, schools, or other organizations or activities that my children will frequent. If there are un-vaccinated children due to any reason other that actual medical necessity, my kids will not be a part of that group. Especially when I have an infant. I'm not nervous about airplanes or cities, but these types of environments are where I actually see a huge danger to me and my kids. Even if everybody is OK, I don't have three weeks in my schedule to be quarantined because I went to a doctors office where someone couldn't be bothered to vaccinate their kid or do good research and brought them in with measles.
Until there is better legislation it is still in many cases the parents' prerogative. But It is also my responsibility to take the best care of my children that I possibly can, so I don't care if asking these questions at different places offends people.
We delay and then selectivity Vax. I've done plenty of research and while i agree that there is tons of bad information out there i have a hard time believing anybody who thinks injuries or adverse effects "are very very rare" has looked into it all beyond news stories or talking heads saying so.
not only are the vaccine requirements increasing, but evidence is mounting that the immune benefits of some of the vaccines are waning earlier which means more boosters. So over a lifetime many more injections without supporting research as to the safety of the extra shots.
Many of you speak as though there is only positives to vaccines and that is simply not true. Currently merck, the monopolizing maker of the mmr shot is under investigation for fraud, misrepresenting the efficacy of the mumps shots and suppressing negative findings, including an increased risk of autism for African American boys. This is not some conspiracy theory bullshit. The info is out there. Whether that gives you pause or not if for you to decide. But profits drive the vaccine industry in the United States, like it drives the food industry (hello trans fat, fortified foods, super gluten fillers, all brought to you by scientists).
It really isn't as simple a discussion as some of you are making it seem.
I think the reason why more cases of autism are being diagnosed now than, say, in the 80s is primarily because if increased awareness. I am in the autism spectrum, but I didn't find out till I was in my 20s. Why? Because back in 1985-87 when I was in preschool and kindergarten and struggling, they didn't think a kid who was verbal and able to communicate and who was on par with or even ahead of her peers academically could have autism or a developmental delay.
I realize there could be other factors involved, but I think the primary reason for the increase is because we're now more aware.
That and the comments about hormones. From other women. Like, really? Yes of course I'm hormonal. I'm growing a baby ffs. However, my hormones are not what are causing me to post about things I care about. I find it so insulting.
@komorebi Thanks for the info. The dosing is super concerning. Like I said before at what point are we getting to diminishing returns. Will our grandchildren be receiving 80 doses of vaccines by the time they are six? If we stayed on this current pace that is where we are headed. Not to mention what is happening with gardasil.
@MelMel92 I'll bake you some cookies... actually, hold up, only after my glucose test. I actually told my husband that the other day and I think he was really sad.
oh I totally agree with you about antibiotics. They are way over prescribed. However, the mechanisms of vaccines and antibiotics are very very different. Vaccines work by exposing to your body to a weakened or dead pathogen so your body has future immunity against that pathogen. Antibiotics work by killing or stopping a bacteria from reproducing.
I must admit, I also have a hard time with an objection to vaccines being that there is so much money to be made off of them. I have two brothers who are doctors in the military, and I can tell you that they aren't making a dime more if one of their patients decides to vaccinate their children. They will still tell you to vaccinate. I have a sister-in-law who is a scientist who is working on a lab test to help detect genes that indicate a higher risk for breast cancer. If her work is successful, her company will be able to market it and will make money from it. Does that mean she is working really hard every day just because she is hoping for some future windfall? I don't think so, I think she is working hard because she cares about her work and hopes it will make a difference.
I guess my point is that just because someone is making money off of something, doesn't mean that is the only reason they are doing it. Most people who go to work every day in the healthcare fields do it because they care about their patients and want to improve public health. They also want to feed their families and pay off their enormous medical school debt. So please don't ascribe ulterior motives to a doctor who recommends your child get vaccines.
I haven't read the rest of this whole vaccine post but I just wanted to hug you for this. Thank you
Now that I've read the rest of this I can't even imagine why this is even an issue. This is seriously the chillest debate over vaccines I've ever seen ANYWHERE. Everyone here is respectful and informed. If you have a problem with respectful debate it's very easy to not click on topics that will 100% have a debate associated. I swear, if some of my favorite people to read on here get banned for speaking respectfully and sharing their knowledgeable opinions (@BrooklynBroussard )I will throw a hissy. As for the whole vaccination part. Everyone has spoken my opinion, no need for me to add more to it. Just speaking from experience watching patients with polio and other preventable disease suffer, is enough to make me vaccinate my daughter so I never have to watch her go through that.
In @butcher1s defense, I didn't even know you could search previous discussions on a particular topic. Maybe she didn't know! If you don't care to rehash the discussion, don't respond! If you feel like giving her some advice, then do it. Goodness!
Me and my SO have recently heard of some cons of vaccinating, such as that vaccinations cause ADD and autism. I just researched on my own. But, I still haven't found any articles for or against vaccinating that have allowed me to make a definitive decision as to what I will do with my LO.
In @butcher1s defense, I didn't even know you could search previous discussions on a particular topic. Maybe she didn't know! If you don't care to rehash the discussion, don't respond! If you feel like giving her some advice, then do it. Goodness!
Me and my SO have recently heard of some cons of vaccinating, such as that vaccinations cause ADD and autism. I just researched on my own. But, I still haven't found any articles for or against vaccinating that have allowed me to make a definitive decision as to what I will do with my LO.
Since you posted, wanted to make sure someone responded. Be sure to use reputable sources for your research, not just mommy blogs or opinion articles. I don't mean to imply that you haven't been, but I would be extremely surprised if you're finding anything research and/or science based that links autism to vaccines as that theory has been disproven time and again. The original article supporting the theory turned out to be a fraud, but it still somehow gets passed around as "fact". If you have specific questions I'm sure someone here can answer them for you or point you in a specific direction for more information. Good luck with your research!
Ok, everybody has said some great stuff here. Another thought (as a pro-vaxxer myself) concerning the whole big Pharma/ money angle. The healthcare system actually saves money by getting people vaccinated. If "they" wanted to make more money the kinds of hospital admissions, drugs, whatever required would actually make a lot more money in the long term. The companies who develop the vaccines also develop the drugs.
If They have had the vaccine how would your kid get it? Hmmmm
If one child goes unvaccinated and goes to school with all vaccinated children, the vaccinated children don't get sick from that disease or have a very very low chance of getting sick, however one of the vaccinated children have a 2 month old sibling at home who is too young to get vaccinated, the vaccinated child who came into contact with the unvaccinated child carrying a disease then passes the disease to their younger sibling. Just because you don't get sick from a disease doesn't mean you can't be a carrier. There's lots of science proven facts for vaccines, I encourage you to look some up !
Again, my point was that I am uncomfortable with the amount of doses a child receives before six years old. (49 doses) This is double what someone born in the 80's received. I am also aware there are new vaccines but at what point does the amount of vaccine put into a small child's body become a product of diminishing returns. Will our grandchildren be getting 100 doses. Also, children use to be allowed only one shot at a time, now they can get 5. Again, this makes me very nervous. To think that big pharma doesn't care about profits when they spend as much on marketing as they do research is naive. They make a lot of money off of vaccines, not to mention they are not perfect and what may seem safe may later be found not. I know this makes everyone nervous and it is easier to just trust that everyone has our children's best interest at heart. As for me I will be putting my child on a slower vac schedule and opting out of chicken pox. Solely because I don't want my kid pumped full of more than necessary.
Re: Vaccines
Why have vaccines doubled? My guess, because science has moved forward in the last 30 years and we can now protect our children better through the development of more vaccines? I don't know about the USA but In England we are about to start vaccinating our children against meningitis, something which can't come soon enough for me, if this extra vaccine stops the horrific deaths or lifelong consequences this disease inflicts upon children then bring it on! Why didn't kids get it in the 1980's? Simply because it didn't exist.
In Canada children get vaccines at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 12 months, 2 years, and then one set at age 4 before starting school ... So 6 sets of needles before age 6 ! And then flu shot if you want, it's not mandatory.
I think someone earlier mentioned a family member getting shingles at a young age, I got shingles 2 years ago at the age of 32 and it was awful. I had chicken pox as a kid and it wasn't that bad, but shingles was excruciatingly painful. If I could go back and get a vaccine and avoid that I would 100% do it, and will definitely spare my child that pain if I can.
I get that giving lots of shots to a little baby seems scary, but I think that the medical science is strong enough at this point to support it being worth it, as well as the benefits to others of herd immunity. I think a slower schedule is definitely better than not vaccinating at all if you are not comfortable with the normal schedule, but definitely I don't see any reason to take unnecessary risks in not vaccinating when there is so much evidence relating to the benefits.
I'm also glad to see how calm and rational this discussion has been.
not only are the vaccine requirements increasing, but evidence is mounting that the immune benefits of some of the vaccines are waning earlier which means more boosters. So over a lifetime many more injections without supporting research as to the safety of the extra shots.
Many of you speak as though there is only positives to vaccines and that is simply not true. Currently merck, the monopolizing maker of the mmr shot is under investigation for fraud, misrepresenting the efficacy of the mumps shots and suppressing negative findings, including an increased risk of autism for African American boys. This is not some conspiracy theory bullshit. The info is out there. Whether that gives you pause or not if for you to decide. But profits drive the vaccine industry in the United States, like it drives the food industry (hello trans fat, fortified foods, super gluten fillers, all brought to you by scientists).
It really isn't as simple a discussion as some of you are making it seem.
I realize there could be other factors involved, but I think the primary reason for the increase is because we're now more aware.
Me and my SO have recently heard of some cons of vaccinating, such as that vaccinations cause ADD and autism. I just researched on my own. But, I still haven't found any articles for or against vaccinating that have allowed me to make a definitive decision as to what I will do with my LO.