MMM (Monday Meeting of the Minds)

lgsdesigner · January 2015

Every Monday this post goes over heated topics/discussions so we can all debate/discuss/dissect the subject.

***NOTE: Some of these topics can be very sensitive to many, so please be respectful, and stay within TOU regulations. Thank you.***

This week's topic: Children and Vaccines

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommends getting 28 doses of 10 vaccines for kids aged 0 to six. No US federal laws mandate vaccination, but all 50 states require certain vaccinations for children entering public schools. Most states offer medical and religious exemptions; and some states allow philosophical exemptions.

Proponents say that vaccination is safe and one of the greatest health developments of the 20th century. They point out that illnesses, including rubella, diphtheria, smallpox, polio, and whooping cough, are now prevented by vaccination and millions of children’s lives are saved. They contend adverse reactions to vaccines are extremely rare.

Opponents say that children’s immune systems can deal with most infections naturally, and that injecting questionable vaccine ingredients into a child may cause side effects, including seizures, paralysis, and death. They contend that numerous studies prove that vaccines may trigger problems like autism, ADHD, and diabetes.

The question is-- Should children be required to get vaccinated? Why or why not?

lgsdesigner · January 2015

A while back, the link to Autism and vaccines was completely de-bunked...so there’s that.
Vaccines, in my opinion, are very important. I do feel they should be mandatory simply because it prevents the spread of disease and potentially unnecessary child deaths.

Take the flu, for example. Look at how many people have died from it this year. An outrageous amount, and many were children.
That number could have possibly been cut in half with a little prevention.

That being said-- I do know many people who are completely against vaccines, and that's their opinion, but my kids have been getting vaccines since they were born, and I will continue to do so.

lgsdesigner · January 2015

ramy3 said:

You have got to be kidding me.

@ramy3 - Nope. It's a legit debate, and one I've seen personally where people literally fight about it on FB and Twitter.

Link: https://vaccines.procon.org/

Lalalady54 · January 2015

It's an issue of public health, vaccines should be mandatory, if you want a home birth, or BPA free bottles those choices are for you and your family, vaccinations and not having them effect your community. For example the recent outbreak of measles at Disneyland.

I have been on a bump hiatus but I feel very strongly about this, soooo those are my 2 cents.

I'll just leave these here:

https://bostonwed-murakami.blogspot.com/2013/09/vaccination-laypersons-perspective_26.html?m=1

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-a-offit-the-anti-vaccination-epidemic-1411598408?mobile=y

***trigger, loss mentioned in link below***

https://www.bartbarrett.com/home/one-dead-child-two-foolish-parents#.VLIRj3uddfs=

lgsdesigner · January 2015

bearvg said:

It seems that only Google searches and dear diary posts are the new norm, so participation may be low. Any who, carry on, and vaccinate your fucking kids. ETA words

@bearvg - Haha! Yes. We have such a beautiful world here now of "sparkly" things.

nurserachel22 · January 2015

ramy3 said:
Um, yes I am aware there are morons out there who do not vaccinate.

My point is there is enough BS on this board right now.

Agreed... I feel like people have been discussing this since we got here.

lgsdesigner · January 2015

If the debates I choose are not sensitive enough, people get upset.
If the debates I choose are not controversial enough, people are then angry it “wasn’t a good one”.

I am unsure what type of debates you see as acceptable. Please clarify so I can do better next week. And-- if any of you have suggestions of debates, PM me with them.

But yes—all of the debates I choose are ones that are hot right now that many argue/debate about everywhere. The whole point of MMM is to debate, show both sides, discuss. Whether it’s a “shit show” or a “borefest”, anyone can choose to comment or not comment. It’s just for pure entertainment, and in some cases, to gain knowledge or learn other views.

In my opinion—this is a hell of a lot more entertaining than talking about baby showers.

blankenbakerh · January 2015

I agree with OP and other PP that you should vaccinate. We do with ours and will with this LO. I do know some people who don't and its usually a conversation I avoid with them. With so many parents choosing not to vaccinate I feel it's especially important that mine are to reduce their risk in case of exposure.

Snapdragon750 · January 2015

This is all anyone needs to know about vaccinations. (Please excuse the profanity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

ETA: Sorry, meant to make that a link.

blankenbakerh · January 2015

Snapdragon750 said:
This is all anyone needs to know about vaccinations. (Please excuse the profanity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

ETA: Sorry, meant to make that a link.

I have never seen this video! It's great! Thanks for posting.

lladymack · January 2015

I look forward to these MMM. I don't always speak up but I enjoy reading the educated responses and perhaps learning something new.
I will say I don't know a lot on the subject to advocate one way or the other but I will be vaccinating my LO.

mommapizano · January 2015

We are vaccinating for sure but know one family who didn't vaccinate and a family member who is pregnant who does not plan to. We live in California and I have been hearing more and more about people not vaccinating.

Preventable diseases that have basically gone away will likely come back (can we look at the measles outbreak at Disneyland a few weeks ago?!).

There are even doctors who are promoting this group immunity mentality saying that if 9/10 kids are vaccinated and yours isn't that your kid won't get whatever illness. I have honestly just avoided debating the people I know about this because they are set in their choices and it can get heated.

sml72978 · January 2015

I vaccinate my kids, as a nurse I am well aware of the issues surrounding vaccination and have a good bit of knowledge regarding the subject. I think anyone who is against vaccinations should do their research. Not saying they don't but I have seen people who are just like "I am not vaccinating my kids because I don't want them to become autistic" but don't have any sort of reference knowledge or facts to back it up.

LadyBlood · January 2015

In my opinion, the people who choose not to vaccinate their kids are selfish. Not only are they leaving their kids unprotected but they're doing more harm to those kids who can not be vaccinated due to medical reasons. Those kids depend on "herd immunity" to be protected. They depend on healthy kids around them to be vaccinated.

skupski83 · January 2015

Snapdragon750 said:
This is all anyone needs to know about vaccinations. (Please excuse the profanity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

ETA: Sorry, meant to make that a link.

EPIC!! Love it!!

CorryS12 · January 2015

@Snapdragon750 that video is awesome. Thank you for sharing.

I havent done my research on the topic but I know we will definitely be vaccinating.

babymcb21 · January 2015

When the anti-vax movement first started gaining popularity (or at least when I became aware of it, which was probably 10+ years ago in high school), I was like 'huh, that's really interesting, I'm going to have to research that when I have kids and make a really informed decision.' At that young naive time, I thought it was likely I would not vaccinate my kids, or would only give them select vaccinations. I'm very much a skeptical "don't believe it's safe just because the government tells you so" kind of person (i.e. food, chemicals, etc)

BUT NOW, it seems like a lot of the anti-vax research is coming to light as total bullshit, and there is a big 'wtf is wrong with you?' mentality toward people who don't vaccinate their kids. So, with that being said, and now being pregnant, I don't really plan to do any extensive research aside from talking to MW and pediatrician, and I will vaccinate my child just as I was, and like we have been doing as a society for many, many years.

Sort of feels like maybe the anti-vax thing was much-ado-about-nothing scare. Again, this is coming from a person who never really extensively researched it when things were 'in their prime', so to speak, and who doesn't really feel the need to spend hours researching it now. Though I'm sort of just going with the flow of public perception, I'll trust what a doctor whose views align with my own can tell me over what I can find on google. Frankly, I don't know a god damn thing about vaccines or medicine, and I really don't trust myself to draw my own conclusions based on my own non-medical research.

lgsdesigner said:

The question is-- Should children be required to get vaccinated? Why or why not?

To answer the actual question, though....I normally don't love laws that tell people they are REQUIRED to do something. I think it's really important to wear a helmet or a seat belt, but I don't think we should be telling adults what they HAVE to do in order to protect themselves. But when it comes to children, I'm okay with those laws, because ideally it can help protect kids with idiot parents who wouldn't enforce those rules on their own. So while I would feel kind of uncomfortable with the government saying we HAVE to do something, I guess it would kind of be a similar situation to requiring kids to wear seat belts and helmets. I sort of just wish parents would follow the advice of the medical community so that it wouldn't be necessary to make a 'you must vaccinate!' law. *steps off soapbox* :-@

pinkiemo · January 2015

So the question is, should children be required to get vaccinated?

Yes.

It's amazing to me that we can require car seats, which if not used only affects the child not using the car seat, but we get squeamish about requiring vaccinations, which if not used could potentially affect every person that child comes in contact with should they become sick.

Also amazing to me is that a court is able to force chemo on a teenager who doesn't want it.

putput19 · January 2015

Just to be a little different. We do mostly vaccinate but on a delayed schedule. I have not given my daughter hep. B yet (nor do I plan to until her preteen years). I will also only let her have 2 vaccines at a time. This comes from the research that I have done. I am well educated on the subject and have the right as a parent to choose what and when things go into my children's bodies. I do think children should get most vaccines, but I don't think the government should have a right to decide what we give.
((Parents who do not vaccinate because they believe their child will get Autism are uneducated. That is not a valid reason not to vaccinate.))

sml72978 · January 2015

putput19 said:
Just to be a little different. We do mostly vaccinate but on a delayed schedule. I have not given my daughter hep. B yet (nor do I plan to until her preteen years). I will also only let her have 2 vaccines at a time. This comes from the research that I have done. I am well educated on the subject and have the right as a parent to choose what and when things go into my children's bodies. I do think children should get most vaccines, but I don't think the government should have a right to decide what we give.
((Parents who do not vaccinate because they believe their child will get Autism are uneducated. That is not a valid reason not to vaccinate.))

I can totally respect your opinion and stance on it because you have made educated choices. While it's not the same choice I made that's ok, you have valid and well researched reasoning and in my opinion that's what matters.

mpower0606 · January 2015

bearvg said:
It seems that only Google searches and dear diary posts are the new norm, so participation may be low. Any who, carry on, and VACCINATE YOUR FUCKING KIDS.

ETA words

^This

%anti-vaxxers

emilyanimals15 · January 2015

@snapdragon750 I have never seen that video. But I love it!

rels09 · January 2015

One of my pet peeves is when this debate is presented as if both sides are equally well-researched and scientifically valid. I read a very good article on just that problem a while back and how it gives more credibility to the anti-vaxxers. I wish I could remember the specifics well enough to find a link.

Rosie3rd · January 2015

I just don't see this as an argument with 2 equal sides. It's not something that has a rational argument for and against. You either research and vaccinate or you don't look at credible sources and then choose not to vaccinate, which puts your child and everyone around them at risk. One of my closest friends child is currently undergoing chemo for leukaemia, and she has been advised not to attend anything with more than a crowd of 10 people as vaccination rates in her neighbourhood (Byron Bay) are ridiculously low. So those parents choosing not to vaccinate hold a 7 yr old girls life in their hands, without ever even realising it. Plus more that 95% of parents opting out of vaccinating (in Oz at least) are vaccinated themselves! So it's only their children not covered.

poteetpartyof3 · January 2015

lgsdesigner I think this is a good topic for debate if everyone can debate logically and not emotionally. Good job.

Vaccines are a touchy topic in my family. My older brother died as a result of the whooping cough vaccine when he was six weeks old.

My mother was only 19 and believed he was having seizures which is common in my family. When she took him to the emergency to room to get checked out the doctor said it wasn't seizures but hey let's go ahead and give him his vaccines since he's already here. He was dead within 24 hours. The whooping cough vaccine is not supposed to be given to children with epilepsy and even though my mom took him in suspecting he had epilepsy they gave it to him anyways and he was the 1 in 10,000 that died as a result. This situation should never have occurred. Granted this was the 1980's and medication and vaccines have evolved a lot since then but that doctor should never have given my brother the whooping cough vaccine if there was any suspicion he had epilepsy.

(In case anyone is wondering a malpractice suit was brought against this doctor by several families who were victims of his lack of concern and professionalism and he lost his medical license.)

Now even after this situation I am not anti-vaccine.

I am a teacher and work in cesspool of germs. I'm sick constantly and my doctor told me it will 3 to 5 years for my immune system to become strong enough to withstand the amount of germs I am exposed to on a daily basis. Last year a school in my city had to be closed down because a stomach virus was spreading like wildfire and half the student population and teachers were out sick.

(Read about that here. https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/norovirus-may-have-sickened-hundreds-at-richardson-high-school/)

Imagine what would happen if something like measles or small pocks took hold in a school because parents all of a sudden decided not to vaccinate? We would be experiencing the red death all over again when it was preventable from the beginning.

Parents and doctors should be educated on the effects of vaccines and who should be and shouldn't be receiving them. My brother should not have received the whooping cough vaccine but he still could have received the rest and be alive today.

rels09 · January 2015

poteetpartyof3 said:

lgsdesigner I think this is a good topic for debate if everyone can debate logically and not emotionally. Good job.

Vaccines are a touchy topic in my family. My older brother died as a result of the whooping cough vaccine when he was six weeks old.

My mother was only 19 and believed he was having seizures which is common in my family. When she took him to the emergency to room to get checked out the doctor said it wasn't seizures but hey let's go ahead and give him his vaccines since he's already here. He was dead within 24 hours. The whooping cough vaccine is not supposed to be given to children with epilepsy and even though my mom took him in suspecting he had epilepsy they gave it to him anyways and he was the 1 in 10,000 that died as a result. This situation should never have occurred. Granted this was the 1980's and medication and vaccines have evolved a lot since then but that doctor should never have given my brother the whooping cough vaccine if there was any suspicion he had epilepsy.

(In case anyone is wondering a malpractice suit was brought against this doctor by several families who were victims of his lack of concern and professionalism and he lost his medical license.)

Now even after this situation I am not anti-vaccine.

I am a teacher and work in cesspool of germs. I'm sick constantly and my doctor told me it will 3 to 5 years for my immune system to become strong enough to withstand the amount of germs I am exposed to on a daily basis. Last year a school in my city had to be closed down because a stomach virus was spreading like wildfire and half the student population and teachers were out sick.
(Read about that here. https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/02/04/norovirus-may-have-sickened-hundreds-at-richardson-high-school/)
Imagine what would happen if something like measles or small pocks took hold in a school because parents all of a sudden decided not to vaccinate? We would be experiencing the red death all over again when it was preventable from the beginning.

Parents and doctors should be educated on the effects of vaccines and who should be and shouldn't be receiving them. My brother should not have received the whooping cough vaccine but he still could have received the rest and be alive today.

I am so sorry for your family's loss. Thank you for sharing your story!!

zbornak123 · January 2015

I think a lot of the anti-vaccine sentiment comes from general mistrust of the government, the FDA and NIH. I read a book called "Evidence of Harm" about 5 or 6 years ago that really made me think. The book was heavily weighted against vaccines, and many books are one way or the other, but I did find it really interesting, and it opened my eyes to some of the inner workings of the FDA. DH and I plan on vaccinating, but possibly with modifications (like a PP said, no hep B until the child is older, considering its transmitted through sex and blood, and we don't see an immediate threat.) I feel like I straddle the line a little, I empathize with those who are fearful of the toxins and additives in vaccines, but I also see the great benefit.

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