Cloth Diapering
stoneycakes
member
~~~Book Club Check-In...Here it is!~~~
stoneycakes
member
We've read the first four chapters. We've learned about Henrietta's childhood and a bit about her life as an adult. We've learned about the struggles doctors had with diagnosing and treating cervical cancer and we've learned about George Gey's work in trying to find and grow immortal human cells.
Here's what I took away from it. What a short and difficult life Henrietta Lacks had! She lost her mother, got shipped off to her grandfather's, had her first baby at age 14, and married her cousin who then cheated on her all the time. Yikes. Even getting beyond the fact that she married into her own bloodline, I couldn't get over how incestuous their relationship was considering they had essentially grown up as brother and sister since they were children. It seems like she felt she had no other choice.
How do you feel about the fact that the patients who were receiving free health care were being harvested for samples without their consent? In some ways it seems like a small price to pay, but it really struck me that the author described the samples taken from Lacks as "dime sized." That is not a small sample. It could cause scarring and further problems down the road and it was done as a matter of course and without permission.
Another thing I found interesting was how instrumental Margaret was in helping George culture cells. Nowadays, even to a layman, growing such fragile cells in a sterile environment makes total sense. It's hard to imagine that as recently as the fifties, this was not normal procedure. I thought it was awesome that Margaret's experience as a nurse helped her teach George about sterilization and how he DIY'ed most of his lab equipment. They were truly pioneers.
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Re: ~~~Book Club Check-In...Here it is!~~~
The unauthorized medical testing does bother me a bit. Sure, it's a small price to pay, but poor people have the same rights as the affluent. Plus I think it probably skewed a lot of data if they were only getting test samples from a small part of the population.
Shoot, I've got to take a small bump break and go parent for a while.
Anyway, I was especially creeped out about it not surprising anyone for first cousins to have a baby together. I was bothered by the infidelity too but kept going back to eewww, they're cousins. Now the unauthorized taking of samples...wow. This hit me because when I worked as a nurse, I would get/witness consents. We had so many forms: invasive procedures/patient privacy/understanding CA carseat law/allowing pictures for the affiliated medical school, etc, etc. All Henrietta signed was for an unnamed general procedure so reading how it used to be done is making me see why there's so many consents nowadays.
I could go on and on about what we've read so far!
Very true. Unfortunately, that was a fairly common practice especially with those who were underprivileged in that day and age. I'm sorry, I'm sort of struggling with using PC terms here. But yeah, if they shared a room since she was what, 6? And had her first baby at 14, I wonder how long their "relationship" had been going on, and how consensual it was.
How do you feel about the fact that the patients who were receiving free health care were being harvested for samples without their consent?
I struggle with this one being in the research field. First off, I absolutely find it wrong and appalling that it was done without their consent. But I also understand the researcher's thoughts in that day, that these cells are probably going to die anyhow, the patient will never know what happened, and they are receiving free health care. It's totally wrong. Of course it's wrong. And I would be livid if it were me. But I get how they could have thought that, especially considering the culture at the time (which was also, of course, absolutely wrong.)
But imagine where we would be if these doctors hadn't taken these steps? If this somewhat pompous guy hadn't just taken what he needed without asking? Some of the greatest scientific discoveries have been the product of accidents. So in the grand scheme of the greater good? It's a tough call. Obviously the easy answer would have been to just slip a line into the surgical consent form that stated that samples might be collected. It's not like most of these people could read anyhow. (Obviously still not saying that is okay, but it would have been an easy way to cover his arse.)
Another thing I found interesting was how instrumental Margaret was in helping George culture cells.
Yeah! Go lady! But was anyone else grossed out that they were eating in the lab? EWW! Where was Margaret when THAT was going on? Do you know how much dander, urine, and fecal matter gets aerosolized from animal cages kept in that quantity? Blech.
how he DIY'ed most of his lab equipment. They were truly pioneers.
They really were. These people worked hard. And they have a lot to show for it. I'm really surprised I've never heard their names before.
My own thoughts:
It's amazing what a strong person Henrietta was. She didn't fret, she didn't bother anybody, she just had her H drop her off then went in for her surgery. Stayed for a few days, then went on home like nothing had happened. How awful that must have been to hold all of that in.
The stuff about carrying radium in their pockets, inserting it directly into her!!!! I know you can't know the risks of something until you know the risks of it, but that is so weird to me to think of these people just carrying it around in their pockets (and later dying of cancer.) Also, so odd to think of how the same product is used to treat cancer, and also causes it.
I never knew that Johns Hopkins did free medical care and treatment for those who couldn't afford it. And walk-in apparently too! Good for them. Good. For. Them.
IUI#2 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 5-9) = BFN
IUI#3 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 3-7) = BFP!
beta #1 11/23 = 270, P4 = 75
beta #2 11/28 = 2055
Our daughter E was born 7/29/2012!
Surprise, our 2nd daughter P was born 5/22/14!
IUI#2 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 5-9) = BFN
IUI#3 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 3-7) = BFP!
beta #1 11/23 = 270, P4 = 75
beta #2 11/28 = 2055
Our daughter E was born 7/29/2012!
Surprise, our 2nd daughter P was born 5/22/14!
Thank you to whoever suggested this book. I was visiting my parents with the kids last week, and my mom saw it and told me that she had read it recently. My grandmother died of cervical cancer in her 40s, in a kind of similar situation- multiple babies as a teenager, no-good husband, nowhere to go if she left, incredibly fast-moving cancer. I think it's going to give us an opening to finally talk more about what happened to her- my mom never talks about it, and I think she needs to talk about her mother's and her own life as much as I need to know about it.
I have mixed feelings about the samples, too. They did so much good, and it's not like they have any identifying features, like a photograph or something. "Dime sized" is larger than I expected, though- I had thought that they used cells from the biopsy that they were already taking. The idea of people making money off of them while her family can't afford health care is horrible.
It's interesting to read about this knowing what we know now about HPV and cervical cancer. As if having a cheating husband wasn't bad enough, to have him give you a deadly disease that didn't kill him, too? That's just cruel.
ETA Oops, I didn't mean to post earlier without saying I think part of the reason she may have been so nonchalant about her diagnosis was people just didn't talk about cancer in the past the way they do now. MH grandmother was Henrietta's generation and when she had breast cancer, the grandkids were never told. MH only found out after I noted she had a mastectomy. The fact his grandma was a survivor was never brought up or celebrated the way we would now if it was one of our moms. Hope that makes sense, and that I'm not going off topic too much.
On a lighter note, the Gey Chicken Bleeding Technique sounds incredibly similar to trying to use the snot sucker on my toddler.
I didn't take it as nonchalance so much as just another task she had to handle.
IUI#2 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 5-9) = BFN
IUI#3 Femara/Ovidrel (cd 3-7) = BFP!
beta #1 11/23 = 270, P4 = 75
beta #2 11/28 = 2055
Our daughter E was born 7/29/2012!
Surprise, our 2nd daughter P was born 5/22/14!
Thanks to all who voted for this book. It is something I never would have chosen to read, but I'm loving it.
As sick as the whole first cousins thing was, I actually found it somewhat Romantic. UO right there.
The unauthorized sample ticked me right off though. I'm sure things like that are why the medical field today is constantly covering their behinds.