fighting sleep ... cry it out?

kstirton · January 2015

My LO is 6 weeks as of yesterday, we've started trying to lay her down drowsy so that she can go to sleep on her own. She's sleeping great - already sleeping 8 hr stretches in the middle of the night, but getting her to sleep is the really tricky part. She just fights it!! You can tell she's tired, heavy eye lids, etc but will just wake up randomly 5 minutes after dozing off and cry. At this point we have been rocking her, putting the pacifier back in her mouth, and eventually picking her up again, rocking her, starting the whole cycle again. We'd really like to transition her to her crib soon but I'm kind of at a loss for what to do when she's fighting sleep... leave her alone? And for those that do let your LO's cry, how long is too long? I really can't go more than a minute - when her scream cry begins. Just breaks me heart.

kstirton · January 2015

I swaddle her with a pacifier and sound machine. It's almost like she is absolutely indignant on fighting sleep for 2 hours before she finally goes! It's weird ... she does it at night when we lay her down in her rnp - usually when she's already asleep. Right now we are going on 30 minutes in the crib, not a peep...fx'd this is a real nap!

lizgrace03 · January 2015

What kind of crying are we talking? Fussy or screams? I let Alistair fuss for a bit, maybe 10 mins. it's just him settling himself down. If he drops the pacifier I'll give it back to him. I would not let him scream-cry though. Can you rock her until she settles then put her down?

ETA we have had great success with getting him to sleep on his own in the Rock n Play.

KMW08 · January 2015

I've recently started using a heating pad due to a bellyache. I've noticed though that the heat calms and makes him super relaxed. So while I'm rocking him & he's fighting sleep I put the heating pad over him & a blanket. Works like a charm,

KMW08 · January 2015

lovebuggies1 said:

KMW08 said:
I've recently started using a heating pad due to a bellyache. I've noticed though that the heat calms and makes him super relaxed. So while I'm rocking him & he's fighting sleep I put the heating pad over him & a blanket. Works like a charm,
What kind of heating pad do you use? @KMW08 I know the gas drops aren't working and my LO tummy hurts a lot.

@lovebuggies1‌ Whatever the cheapie one was, around $10. Nothing fancy, has a high/med/low setting. It plugs into the wall.

kstirton · January 2015

Sounds like we are doing everything we can! I felt like it was too early to cry it out but I also think sometimes its how she gets herself tired enough for a deep sleep, unfortunately

we will keep doing what we've been doing and maybe shoot for more awake time in the evening.

Jan1214 · January 2015

Like PP, I think 6 weeks is way too early to let babies cry. I don't think babies are fighting sleep on purpose. They just can't settle enough to fall all the way to sleep.
One thing that has worked for me some of the time ( not always!) is to rock my LO while holding him really close and snug to me. I hold both his hands by his chest. I don't squeeze tightly or anything, just snug. Then I either sing softly of shhhh shhhh. I have to get him settled down before I even try to put him in his bed.

Then, when he's in his co sleeper and swaddled, I softly pet the side of his face. Sometimes I do that for over 15 minutes. I know that sounds weird, but it works over half the time.

I've noticed that the more frustrated I am when trying to get him to sleep, the more trouble he has calming down and the more he seems to fight it. But it's so hard to try to relax about it!

Good luck! We're all going through it.

Jan1214 · January 2015

I forgot to add, my sister Used to warm the crib with a rice bag that she heated in the microwave. She'd take it out before putting the baby on the warm area. Haven't tried that yet.

Ineedmorecoffee · January 2015

yes way way too early to let them cry to sleep. I personally think it's too early to even expect them to be able to put themselves to sleep drowsy. Don't feel bad if you have to rock her to sleep, it's already a huge win she sleeps 8 hour stretches!!!

JFH2010 · January 2015

I don't think "drowsy but awake" is supposed to work for most babies until 3 or 4 months. This age is much too young for CIO. If you feel you need a concrete strategy, maybe order a copy of The No-Cry Sleep Solution - it didn't work well for us, but it's worked for a lot of my friends. But really, at this age, you kind of have to expect that they need a lot of help getting and staying asleep.

ETA: I've read that it takes babies 20 minutes or so to fall into a deep sleep once they "seem" asleep. So if you're holding her and she falls asleep, try to keep rocking/holding her for an extra 20 minutes or so before putting her down. That might avoid the problem of waking up after 5 minutes. It's awfully hard to do that when it's the MOTN, but it sounds like you're not having issues at that time.

kstirton · January 2015

Thank you! Yeah, its at night so we are trying put her down for the night around 9 and it ends up being midnight.

Maelara · January 2015

Babies always fight sleep. Hell, kids and toddlers do too. Welcome to parent hood.

As others have said, it's WAY to early to Cio. The fact that you just said that it's the only way she gets tired enough to sleep makes me think she isn't tired enough to sleep yet and that you are already doing CIO. Seriously, babies cry because they need something. Even if it's just attention. Everyone here was too nice. I don't care if you're a reg, this is ridiculous and you should NOT be doing this yet. My baby is colicky and there is no way in hell I would ever cio at this stage. I'm flabbergasted.

Love4Science · January 2015

Just a question...what temp is the room? My LO has a tougher time if the room is below 70, even in a footed sleeper with a swaddle. We keep it between 70-72.

MrsLillyG · January 2015

Same boat. I nurse her for a very long time. Throw her in the miracle blanket. Lol I would be happy with midnight. (I went until 3am a few nights until I decided that midnight was my cutoff to put her in the rnp where she usu passes out) anyways-i suggest buying the miracle blanket and giving yourself a cut off time and start the routine earlier.

MrsAdventure · January 2015

Maelara said:

Babies always fight sleep. Hell, kids and toddlers do too. Welcome to parent hood. As others have said, it's WAY to early to Cio. The fact that you just said that it's the only way she gets tired enough to sleep makes me think she isn't tired enough to sleep yet and that you are already doing CIO. Seriously, babies cry because they need something. Even if it's just attention. Everyone here was too nice. I don't care if you're a reg, this is ridiculous and you should NOT be doing this yet. My baby is colicky and there is no way in hell I would ever cio at this stage. I'm flabbergasted.

This so much.

Edit: quote fail

crizz13 · January 2015

kstirton said:
Sounds like we are doing everything we can! I felt like it was too early to cry it out but I also think sometimes its how she gets herself tired enough for a deep sleep, unfortunately we will keep doing what we've been doing and maybe shoot for more awake time in the evening.

I don't think keeping a baby this young awake longer helps anything...in fact, it can lead to them being overtired and more fussy.

ETA - our 7 week old will only go down for the night between 11pm - 1:30am, no matter how much sleep she's gotten during the day and what we do for a bedtime routine. I think late bedtimes for newborns is pretty "normal"

highbornhunter · January 2015

If your baby is crying, they need something. Will did this thing last night where he was fussy and crying at bedtime and I kept walking with him and checking his diaper and offering him boob. He kept alternating between fussing and crying (depending on what activity we were doing) and then he let out one big loud scream and then got very drowsy and fell asleep 5 minutes later. They need to know you're there and I think they appreciate that you're at least trying to help them.

Remember:

Maelara · January 2015

MrsLillyG said:

Same boat. I nurse her for a very long time. Throw her in the miracle blanket. Lol I would be happy with midnight. (I went until 3am a few nights until I decided that midnight was my cutoff to put her in the rnp where she usu passes out) anyways-i suggest buying the miracle blanket and giving yourself a cut off time and start the routine earlier.

I really hope I'm reading this wrong because I don't like you. You don't seriously put your kid in the rnp and just let her cry at the 'cut off time' do you?

kstirton · January 2015

I didn't say I'm letting her cio, so I'm sorry you had to get all flabbergasted over nothing! :P when she gets tired she fusses. Pretty bad. She's drowsy, her eyes are closing ... then, wam they are open and crying. I can tell she's tired, that's why it leaves me feeling clueless as to what to do. Does she need to cry ... does she need picked up ... I'm just trying to figure this out like the rest of us. No need to jump down anyone's throat

Maelara · January 2015

kstirton said:

I didn't say I'm letting her cio, so I'm sorry you had to get all flabbergasted over nothing! :P when she gets tired she fusses. Pretty bad. She's drowsy, her eyes are closing ... then, wam they are open and crying. I can tell she's tired, that's why it leaves me feeling clueless as to what to do. Does she need to cry ... does she need picked up ... I'm just trying to figure this out like the rest of us. No need to jump down anyone's throat

I am extremely relieved to hear that you aren't letting her CIO. Some parents actually do and it's heart breaking. I understand that you are trying to figure this out like everyone else but please do your research when it comes to this. This is a very important bonding time in a babies life and can set them up for future success or failure.

MrsLillyG · January 2015

Maelara said:

MrsLillyG said:

Same boat. I nurse her for a very long time. Throw her in the miracle blanket. Lol I would be happy with midnight. (I went until 3am a few nights until I decided that midnight was my cutoff to put her in the rnp where she usu passes out) anyways-i suggest buying the miracle blanket and giving yourself a cut off time and start the routine earlier.

I really hope I'm reading this wrong because I don't like you. You don't seriously put your kid in the rnp and just let her cry at the 'cut off time' do you?

Youre reading it wrong. No cio. My baby doesnt like her crib but loves her rnp. Everytime I put her in her crib she would scream within 15 min. I pick her back up when she screams and console her again. Repeat until midnight where I would give up and put her in her beloved rnp where she passes out INSTANTLY 99 percent of the time.

But now I start early, use the nurse for an hour, and stick her in her miracle blanket and then the crib method. This usually works. If it doesnt, I repeAt until midnight.

Again, no crying. I pick her up after a scream. I also wake her up by 6 at the latest to start the day. But with the miracle blanket shes been sleeping 10-5.

Eta capitalized instantly
Idk y I bother to respond to someone that "does not like me"

soulcupcake · January 2015

Maelara said:

Babies always fight sleep. Hell, kids and toddlers do too. Welcome to parent hood. As others have said, it's WAY to early to Cio. The fact that you just said that it's the only way she gets tired enough to sleep makes me think she isn't tired enough to sleep yet and that you are already doing CIO. Seriously, babies cry because they need something. Even if it's just attention. Everyone here was too nice. I don't care if you're a reg, this is ridiculous and you should NOT be doing this yet. My baby is colicky and there is no way in hell I would ever cio at this stage. I'm flabbergasted.

This.

I don't care if it makes me "judgy" or unnecessarily asshattery, I side-eye and shake my head at anyone who holds unrealistic expectations when it comes to infant sleep. Just as many said at the end of pregnancy when talk of labor inductions flood the board , "everyone is uncomfortable, suck it up." The same applies now. Most parents aren't getting 5+ hours of sleep at this point, let alone 8. If aches, pains and restless nights are a normal part of the end of pregnancy that virtually all have to deal with, the early infant stage comes with similar struggles, in which case you adapt and push through it. We all have to. CIO at this point (and I'm not a fan of it during the infant stage at all) is developmentally unsound and unrealistic.

Maelara · January 2015

MrsLillyG said:

MrsLillyG said:

Same boat. I nurse her for a very long time. Throw her in the miracle blanket. Lol I would be happy with midnight. (I went until 3am a few nights until I decided that midnight was my cutoff to put her in the rnp where she usu passes out) anyways-i suggest buying the miracle blanket and giving yourself a cut off time and start the routine earlier.

I really hope I'm reading this wrong because I don't like you. You don't seriously put your kid in the rnp and just let her cry at the 'cut off time' do you?
Youre reading it wrong. No cio. My baby doesnt like her crib but loves her rnp. Everytime I put her in her crib she would scream within 15 min. I pick her back up when she screams and console her again. Repeat until midnight where I would give up and put her in her beloved rnp where she passes out INSTANTLY 99 percent of the time. But now I start early, use the nurse for an hour, and stick her in her miracle blanket and then the crib method. This usually works. If it doesnt, I repeAt until midnight. Again, no crying. I pick her up after a scream. I also wake her up by 6 at the latest to start the day. But with the miracle blanket shes been sleeping 10-5. Eta capitalized instantly Idk y I bother to respond to someone that "does not like me"

Oh thank god!

howin23 · January 2015

We had this problem and it's obviously incredibly hard to handle, and very emotional. We generally let our LO fuss a bit but not cry. The thing that finally worked for us (though admittedly only for the last week or so, so far) was to get her on a schedule.

We got her feeding every four hours day and night (still not 8 weeks so not trying to make her go through the night, though we won't wake her to feed so sometimes 5 at night), and we tried different nap times and lengths during the day. We are currently settled on a one-hour nap in the morning and a 2-2.5 hr nap in the afternoon, but then we keep her awake between 3:15 feed and 7:15 feed / bed. The naps and schedule have been crucial to get her to sleep more easily at night. She fusses for a few minutes but no longer cries. We also don't pick her up once we put her down (just rub her back, etc.).

Good luck, hang in there

.

lizgrace03 · January 2015

Becks517 said:
@howin23‌ I'm confused about how you could get your LO on such a strict schedule without having them CIO? Mine would throw a fit if I tried to make him go 4 hours between feedings. It seems really early to not be feeding on demand.

This. Four hours between feedings during the day seems impossible. I bet we go less than 2 hours all day which allows us to go longer at night. Plus, nine times out of ten when he's fussy he's hungry.

jac409 · January 2015

lizgrace03 said:

@howin23‌ I'm confused about how you could get your LO on such a strict schedule without having them CIO? Mine would throw a fit if I tried to make him go 4 hours between feedings. It seems really early to not be feeding on demand.
This. Four hours between feedings during the day seems impossible. I bet we go less than 2 hours all day which allows us to go longer at night. Plus, nine times out of ten when he's fussy he's hungry.

No joke. My LO would be absolutely hysterical if he went that long between feedings during the day. I agree, our LOs are wayyyy too young for such a strict schedule at this point.

bustarmu21 · January 2015

Just reading the thread.....I'm in the camp of LO calls the shots at this point and if he's tired, he sleeps - regardless of the time of the day.. If he's awake, we play, nurse, change his diaper - no particular order - throughout the day and evening. He usually doesn't go down for the night before midnight and will go a 3.5 hour stretch, maybe 4 hours on a GOOD night. In fact, that's a great night for him. Some nights he will fall asleep in my arms but then hes wide awake and this can go on allll night, once until 430 am - he was a bit younger when that occurred. He will be 8 weeks on Tuesday. At this point, he has good nights and bad nights and I have learned to roll with it, knowing eventually it will fall into place and he will sleep longer through the night. I do put him in his swing if he won't go down after I've tried for hours and hes awake and not fussing bc that will usually put him to sleep. But the swing is my last resort when I'm extremely exhausted. Just my two cents.

lizgrace03 · January 2015

WildFlower810 said:
Just jumping in to say that I'm nursing now after a 4 hour stretch during the day. I spent the last hour and a half looking at the clock and saying "he should be hungry soon!" LO feeds on demand and wasn't the least bit fussy or giving hungry cues. He's 5 weeks old. So, every baby is different and 4 hours is possible.

Definitely! Mine just eats often I think. My mom jokes that he eats like a European- small tastes every so often- snacks rather than full meals haha. This is why I carry a bottle with BM or formula at all times!! But yeah if he goes 4 hours between feedings, that's great!

Maelara · January 2015

howin23 said:

We had this problem and it's obviously incredibly hard to handle, and very emotional. We generally let our LO fuss a bit but not cry. The thing that finally worked for us (though admittedly only for the last week or so, so far) was to get her on a schedule.

We got her feeding every four hours day and night (still not 8 weeks so not trying to make her go through the night, though we won't wake her to feed so sometimes 5 at night), and we tried different nap times and lengths during the day. We are currently settled on a one-hour nap in the morning and a 2-2.5 hr nap in the afternoon, but then we keep her awake between 3:15 feed and 7:15 feed / bed. The naps and schedule have been crucial to get her to sleep more easily at night. She fusses for a few minutes but no longer cries. We also don't pick her up once we put her down (just rub her back, etc.).

Good luck, hang in there .

My daughter had this schedule... When she was one. Something seems fishy here. I sincerely hope you aren't using baby wise. It's a horrible, horrible book and routine to enforce on such a small baby. This phase is crucial for attachments in relationships as adults.

lizzielu82 · January 2015

NinerGirl52 said:
@Maelara‌ I had to go read up on baby wise (as I'd never heard of it). Yikes!!

Agreed - this thread is progressively making me more and more heartbroken.

MmmPopcorn · January 2015

A parent at school recommended Babywise to me and swore it helped her kids STTN by 4 weeks or something. Professional discretion required me to smile and nod.

Another parent mailed me a new copy of Dr. Sears' Baby Book while I was on mat leave. It has been a godsend!

missnacholover · January 2015

@kstirton - have you tried the 5 Ss to get her to sleep easier? Swaddle, place baby on her Side (Maybe in your arms...not in the crib - Back to sleep and all that), Shushing, Swinging, and Sucking. When Claire is incredibly fussy, usually this helps.

Also, try to get a bedtime routine going. That's helped us a lot. We change her, put her in her sleepsack swaddle, turn out the lights (There is a nightlight in her room), feed and rock her, and she usually goes down pretty easily. We also try not to engage her too much during her nighttime routine other than some gentle coos or shushing. I don't "talk" to her like we do during the day. Same with overnights. Of course some nights it's easier than others, these littles have their own ideas!!

Good luck! Just try to remember that the 4th trimester is real. My doctor said something that stuck with me - when babies are in the womb their every need is met, we can't expect them to adjust to the outside world super easily.

Hang in there!

MmmPopcorn · January 2015

kegcrc said:

Have you heard of a book called Sleep Sense? A friend just sent me a copy. I haven't read it yet...any thoughts? I hope it's not the same type of thing as babywise.

I went to the website and blog, and it definitely seems to be in the sleep training category (although not as extreme as Babywise, I'd say).

I filled out the questionnaire on the website, and the results said that I need to change my newborn's bedtime to about 7 p.m. Cue eye roll. Like I can tell my newborn, "Nope, you're going to bed at 7 even though you prefer to stay awake until 11. That shouldn't be a problem, right?" But I'm sure the book has at least some good tips. You can always use the stuff that works for you.

MrsAdventure · January 2015

@mmmpopcorn I took the quiz too, if you can even call it that, and it made me laugh.

The report is soooo generalized that it's painful. It states that the 7 to 8 pm bedtime is based on a wake up time of 7 am. How about asking what time someone rolls out of bed? I'm on maternity leave, have no other children and DH is out of work until he has back surgery, no one in this house gets up before 9, at the earliest, unless Pips decides too, that is. And even when I go back to work, I won't need to leave until about 11am, so I don't see the wake up time changing.

Sorry, but Pips likes to stay up until at least 9 or 10. I'm not going to force her into anything. We have a general bed time of between 10:30 and 11:30. Sometimes she crashes later, or sometimes early. Like last night, mega tummy troubles meant she was inconsolable, so we just kept moving and adjusting to keep her as comfortable as possible. By the time she felt better, around 9:30, she had wore herself out so we did the abbreviated version of her bedtime routine and was asleep by 10pm. She slept clear threw until nearly 4am.

If babies as young as all of ours are left to CIO, it can impact their development. At this age, Infants need the security of knowing that we will always be there to pick up the pieces, or at least attempt too. Without that security, it can impact their ability to learn and grow, and even cope with stress later in life. So really, why take a chance? I feel like the CIO approach at this age is just lazy parenting. Like, I may be the reason you're in this world little baby, but I'll be damned if I'll let you impact my life. That's just my two cents worth.

Edit: just clarifying, what I mean by CIO is the intentional leaving of a child to cry alone in the hopes that they just get over it. What I am not referring to as CIO are times such as (to use an earlier example) when you're in a car and cannot get to your LO.

kstirton · January 2015

Thanks for all the great suggestions, we have been doing a little more of a nighttime routine, and just kind of going with her feeding times as to what time that is. We aren't staying awake for that 11-12 feeding anymore, as I've found if she falls asleep before then (even if it's 30 min before) she will usually stay asleep until morning.

As far as the other conversations stemming from the post - I'll go ahead and add in my 2c for what it's worth! I did read baby wise, it was suggested to me before I had heard all the negative feedback from it- and luckily I'm able to read something and take what I want out of it and leave the rest. I'm also extremely fortunate in the fact that my baby already sleeps through the night, with no forced action on my part - other then sticking to a 3 hour feeding schedule - which was strongly advised by my physician. Feeding her sooner than that was over stimulating her gut and causing lots of fussing and discomfort. I struggled with this "clock feeding" so much in the beginning as I feared she wasn't getting enough to eat - however her weight showed she was getting plenty and me as a new mom had to learn that the cue to suck, and the cue for hunger very closely resembled each other but was NOT the same thing.

There are some fears I have right now with having our baby being soothed constantly to go to sleep. Sometimes, she can go down sleepy and fall asleep ... swaddling helps, pacifier helps (when it stays in) noise machine, everything. But there are those times that she will cry out and fuss and it's then that I struggle with - do I let her fuss, or do I pick her up? We've been picking her up and rocking her until she's asleep and we will continue to do so as long as we can. The fact of the matter is that she will be going to a daycare when I go back to work, and there will be times when she has to cry it out - b/c no one is going to constantly be picking her up the way she is at home. So, eventually she's going to get broken of that, which is sad and hard for me to think of - but I also don't think it's going to crush her spirit or cause irreparable damage. I'd like to think that part of my job is to make that transition a little easier for her, when that time does come, so she's no shell shocked and forced to adjust to a night and day scenario when I'm not with her constantly.

crizz13 · January 2015

Maybe this is idealistic of me and unreasonable but daycare shouldn't be Having babies CIO either!

kstirton · January 2015

I agree with you 100% but we are kidding ourselves if we think our babies are going to be rocked to sleep every time it's nap time and the provider has got x amount of kids to get put down.

lizzielu82 · January 2015

kstirton said:
Thanks for all the great suggestions, we have been doing a little more of a nighttime routine, and just kind of going with her feeding times as to what time that is. We aren't staying awake for that 11-12 feeding anymore, as I've found if she falls asleep before then (even if it's 30 min before) she will usually stay asleep until morning.
As far as the other conversations stemming from the post - I'll go ahead and add in my 2c for what it's worth! I did read baby wise, it was suggested to me before I had heard all the negative feedback from it- and luckily I'm able to read something and take what I want out of it and leave the rest. I'm also extremely fortunate in the fact that my baby already sleeps through the night, with no forced action on my part - other then sticking to a 3 hour feeding schedule - which was strongly advised by my physician. Feeding her sooner than that was over stimulating her gut and causing lots of fussing and discomfort. I struggled with this "clock feeding" so much in the beginning as I feared she wasn't getting enough to eat - however her weight showed she was getting plenty and me as a new mom had to learn that the cue to suck, and the cue for hunger very closely resembled each other but was NOT the same thing.
There are some fears I have right now with having our baby being soothed constantly to go to sleep. Sometimes, she can go down sleepy and fall asleep ... swaddling helps, pacifier helps (when it stays in) noise machine, everything. But there are those times that she will cry out and fuss and it's then that I struggle with - do I let her fuss, or do I pick her up? We've been picking her up and rocking her until she's asleep and we will continue to do so as long as we can. The fact of the matter is that she will be going to a daycare when I go back to work, and there will be times when she has to cry it out - b/c no one is going to constantly be picking her up the way she is at home. So, eventually she's going to get broken of that, which is sad and hard for me to think of - but I also don't think it's going to crush her spirit or cause irreparable damage. I'd like to think that part of my job is to make that transition a little easier for her, when that time does come, so she's no shell shocked and forced to adjust to a night and day scenario when I'm not with her constantly.

You absolutely can't spoil a baby this young. She's not going to get "used to it" because it's not about that, these are things she needs. Soothing is a need.

And if your baby is hungry before your 3 hour time limit, I hope you have enough flexibility in your rigid schedule to feed her. During growth spurts and other times just because, she will be more hungry and will actually need to be eating more frequently.

And if your daycare has a policy to CIO this young, I would consider another option.

kstirton · January 2015

We are taking her to a home daycare, I hope you are right, that there isnt lengthy periods of crying it out! I can't be the only one who has the fear of their lo not being given 100% attention when going back to work.

TeeJ526 · January 2015

kstirton said:
We are taking her to a home daycare, I hope you are right, that there isnt lengthy periods of crying it out! I can't be the only one who has the fear of their lo not being given 100% attention when going back to work.

I will be using a home daycare as well. The ratio of children to providers are low (3:1 I believe) on purpose so that they can tend to all children in a timely manner. If you are truly concerned that they will let your child cry it out, then you need to speak with them.

kstirton · January 2015

Fair enough, maybe I'm making it worse then it will be in my mind. I will def ask her what she does in that situation though.

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