Sad stories (potential triggers): Pakistan, MontCo PA, etc.

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

I am asking this with no snark: What is the hierarchy of bad things that can happen to *bad people*? Are, for example, bamboo shoots under fingernails < anal rape? is it really being said that NO BAD thing should ever happen to a murderer? Blech I wish I never opened this thread. I am not sure how it can be so black and white to some people. I never will.

Actual bad people? Like, convicted of heinous crimes? Prison. Rape and torture are IMO never ever ok. They are not only illegal, they're useless and dehumanizing for not just the person being tortured but the people who are doing it.

But for the eleventybillionth time, we are talking about people who've been convicted of no crime, being subjected to the most disgusting and violent forms of abuse we can concoct, while we thumb our noses at our own laws and international laws.

Kfran84 · December 2014

Sing2phins said:

@kfran84 Come on. Are you serious? You're really going to stand by your statement that rape is ok for punishment for really bad people?

@sing2phins I think you're doing what I did earlier and you helped guide me away from... I don't want to (and it's easy to in this discussion) conflate punishment and interrogation techniques and then maybe a third element of what happens during detention.

Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that anal rehydration was a more effective way to deliver nutrients and hydration to people who were hunger/water striking? The alternative would be forced feeding tubes down the nose, which sounds awful to me too, but don't they have an onus to provide some level of care and prevent these guys from killing themselves?

I don't want people to have car batteries hooked up to their nipples or to be anally brutalized by splintered broom handles as punishment.

mskatiep · December 2014

I think this discussion was warranted and honestly I was surprised at some people's stances, including those that were on my "side." Maybe because I am constantly surrounded by people that disagree with my world views, opinions, and political leanings, I do not write people off, nor change my core judgement of them, based upon political opinions. I would literally have NO ONE in my life if I did that. That being said, I DO make judgements based upon HOW you argue your point. If you can't make a logical argument without resorting to name calling or dismissive comments (NOT necessarily specific to this thread, just in general) then I make judgements of people's character. You can wax poetic all day long about the "right thing" but if common courtesy isn't employed in a debate, then I don't particularly give any credence you your opinions.

Maybe this should be my FFFC......

Kfran84 · December 2014

Dapostrophe said:

I actually think this has been a rather balanced discussion, in terms of people weighing in on both sides or right down the middle.

Unless I just wasn't invited to the circle jerk.

---------- Quote fail-----

@dapostrophe I really liked your contribution. I saw something similar shared on Facebook and found it really interesting. If I were having a circle jerk, you'd definitely be invited.

DebateThis · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

I never said it was ok, I said it's not an atrocity.

An atrocity is being foced to drown your own baby in a North Korean prison camp. An atrocity is a 94-year old couple being beaten to death by home invaders and the husband forced to watch as his wife of 70 years is raped and beaten. An atrocity is being force-invited to watch your daughter and her friends be machine gunned down in a public execution. An atrocity is being sent a video of your son having his head sawed off with a blunt knife.

There are horrors in this world to get your hackles up about, for me, this falls short of that.

It's not ok to rape people... never said it was or that I support it as a tactic of EIT.

You say you supported the "enemas" given to the prisoners, which really weren't enemas. So let's call a spade a spade . It's not "enhanced interrogation". It's torture. It's not "an enema". It's rape.

Kfran84 said:

Sing2phins said:

@kfran84 Come on. Are you serious? You're really going to stand by your statement that rape is ok for punishment for really bad people?

@sing2phins I think you're doing what I did earlier and you helped guide me away from... I don't want to (and it's easy to in this discussion) conflate punishment and interrogation techniques and then maybe a third element of what happens during detention.

Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that anal rehydration was a more effective way to deliver nutrients and hydration to people who were hunger/water striking? The alternative would be forced feeding tubes down the nose, which sounds awful to me too, but don't they have an onus to provide some level of care and prevent these guys from killing themselves?

I don't want people to have car batteries hooked up to their nipples or to be anally brutalized by splintered broom handles as punishment.

Yes, it is completely 100% out of the realm of possibility. For the love of Pete are you really this obtuse?? It's all a humanitarian concern, right? Those guards are just making sure they have food. How nice of them. Except, not.

The Senate Torture Report revealed that CIA medical officers subjected at least five detainees to “rectal rehydration” and “rectal feeding.” The report indicates the rectal procedures were done without evidence of medical necessity, but rather as a means of behavior control. Leading medical experts denounced this practice not only as medically unwise, but as torture.

• “For all practical purposes, it’s never used. No one in the United States is hydrating anybody through their rectum. Nobody is feeding anybody through their rectum.” Thomas Burke, MD, Associate Professor of Emergency Medicine, Harvard Medical School; Attending Physician, Massachusetts General Hospital

• “In over 30 years of gastroenterology practice I never used rectal hydration. Also, rectal feeding simply doesn't make physiologic sense. The colon cannot absorb even pureed food." Steven Field, MD, Clinical Asst. Professor of Medicine, New York University School of Medicine

• “Contrary to the CIA’s assertions, there is no clinical indication to use rectal rehydration and feeding over oral or intravenous administration of fluids and nutrients. This is a form of sexual assault masquerading as medical treatment. In the absence of medical necessity, it is clear that the only purpose behind this humiliating and invasive procedure is to inflict physical and mental pain.” Vincent Iacopino, MD, Senior Medical Advisor, Physicians for Human Rights

And for the bazillionth time, an enema would not cause colorectal prolapse and the SEVERE damage that some of these prisoners have to their rectums.

I'll go back to my liberal circle jerk now, though.

Kfran84 · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

kamakaziartist said:

I am asking this with no snark: What is the hierarchy of bad things that can happen to *bad people*? Are, for example, bamboo shoots under fingernails < anal rape? is it really being said that NO BAD thing should ever happen to a murderer? Blech I wish I never opened this thread. I am not sure how it can be so black and white to some people. I never will.

Also said with no snark:

It is 100% black and white. Bad ILLEGAL things should not be done to bad people, good people, or anyone in between.

Interrogate them with legal methods, send them to jail, try them in international courts, lock them up for life -- but torture is illegal, no matter who it's done to.
---motherfucking quote box---- Honestly, I'm glad it's so easy for you. No snark.

Really, this. I wish I could feel the same. But I don't think we'd be safe. I'm not willing to hamstring the CIA and/or other people who protect me, my family, and the good guys out there by saying that they can't do these things ever.

I've said over and over that I have so many conflicts about this. But I can't just be like, NO, NEVER OK.

Kfran84 · December 2014

@debatethis I can't possibly make you understand that someone can have a difference in their mind between fucked up shit and atrocities. Are you being obtuse?

Who said it was pureed food? Do they give pureed food through IV fluids? Maybe it's a new and pioneering innovation!!

All your posts are TL;DR

DebateThis · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

kamakaziartist said:

kamakaziartist said:

I am asking this with no snark: What is the hierarchy of bad things that can happen to *bad people*? Are, for example, bamboo shoots under fingernails < anal rape? is it really being said that NO BAD thing should ever happen to a murderer? Blech I wish I never opened this thread. I am not sure how it can be so black and white to some people. I never will.

Also said with no snark:

It is 100% black and white. Bad ILLEGAL things should not be done to bad people, good people, or anyone in between.

Interrogate them with legal methods, send them to jail, try them in international courts, lock them up for life -- but torture is illegal, no matter who it's done to.
---motherfucking quote box---- Honestly, I'm glad it's so easy for you. No snark.

Really, this. I wish I could feel the same. But I don't think we'd be safe. I'm not willing to hamstring the CIA and/or other people who protect me, my family, and the good guys out there by saying that they can't do these things ever.

I've said over and over that I have so many conflicts about this. But I can't just be like, NO, NEVER OK.

Torture doesn't work. The CIA isn't "keeping us safer" by breaking the law to use it.
https://www.newsweek.com/neurosciencetorture-doesnt-work-and-heres-why-79365

DebateThis · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

@debatethis I can't possibly make you understand that someone can have a difference in their mind between fucked up shit and atrocities. Are you being obtuse?

Who said it was pureed food? Do they give pureed food through IV fluids? Maybe it's a new and pioneering innovation!!

All your posts are TL;DR

Did you read the motherfucking report? The whole CIA report? It's outlined pretty well.

One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan was administered by enema his “‘lunch tray’ consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins was ‘pureed and rectally infused’”. One CIA officer’s email was in the report quoted as saying “we used the largest Ewal [sic] tube we had”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-worst-findings-waterboard-rectal

But you know, rock on being dismissive.

Kfran84 · December 2014

I just want people to be open to each other's opinions. I didn't mean you, Sing. I think I've been open-minded and challenged by other people's perspectives. But some people are just here to demagogue, as is their M.O.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Anyone else snort at "All your posts are TL;DR?"

DebateThis · December 2014

fitmama418 said:

Anyone else snort at "All your posts are TL;DR?"

Gonna go out on a limb and guess she hasn't read the CIA/Senate report if my posts are too long.

cagoldi · December 2014

I'm team @Dapostrophe‌ in the sense that I felt like it was a good discussion save the last couple pages.

I don't want to be the post police but I feel like maybe we can drop the rape aspect of the discussion only because I feel like it's insensitive to women in this thread that have been victims. I realize no one wants to hurt feelings, but I can't help but think that some of the characterizations of sexual assault are going to be particularly upsetting for those individuals.

Kfran84 · December 2014

DebateThis said:

Kfran84 said:

@debatethis I can't possibly make you understand that someone can have a difference in their mind between fucked up shit and atrocities. Are you being obtuse?

Who said it was pureed food? Do they give pureed food through IV fluids? Maybe it's a new and pioneering innovation!!

All your posts are TL;DR

Did you read the motherfucking report? The whole CIA report? It's outlined pretty well.

One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan was administered by enema his “‘lunch tray’ consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins was ‘pureed and rectally infused’”. One CIA officer’s email was in the report quoted as saying “we used the largest Ewal [sic] tube we had”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-worst-findings-waterboard-rectal

But you know, rock on being dismissive.

No, I didn't read the report. I never represented that I did. This started out as a discussion on the Pakistani school attack and how I would feel about EIT used on those people, if the were caught, and anyone involved with that plot. It has devolved into hypotheticals and hyperbole.

I didn't know they used pureed food, but that is interesting. Isn't nutrition absorbed in the large intestine? What if it worked? WHAT IF IT SAVED HIS LIFE? Again, just because it's not done, doesn't mean they're not pioneering techniques here.

Kfran84 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

I hear all the viewpoints in this thread. If it's demagogue-ing (??) to vehemently reject many of them, then so be it.

I am who I am. I do not believe in shades of gray when it comes to human rights issues. If you (general) dislike me for it, that won't keep me from speaking up or for sleeping like a baby at night.

I don't dislike you. I admire you a lot. Just because we don't believe the same thing about a lot of issues doesn't preclude me from liking you as a person and enjoying our interactions as moms.

Kfran84 · December 2014

DebateThis said:

fitmama418 said:

Anyone else snort at "All your posts are TL;DR?"

Gonna go out on a limb and guess she hasn't read the CIA/Senate report if my posts are too long.

Well, they are. And, no, haven't read the Senate report, never represented that I did. I am open to being challenged or enlightened with info that's new to me.

Kfran84 · December 2014

cagoldi said:

I'm team @Dapostrophe‌ in the sense that I felt like it was a good discussion save the last couple pages. I don't want to be the post police but I feel like maybe we can drop the rape aspect of the discussion only because I feel like it's insensitive to women in this thread that have been victims. I realize no one wants to hurt feelings, but I can't help but think that some of the characterizations of sexual assault are going to be particularly upsetting for those individuals.

I agree, I hadn't thought of that since this post is so full of triggers. Truly sorry if any of my comments were insensitive to anyone who has been victimized.

cagoldi · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

DebateThis said:

Kfran84 said:

@debatethis I can't possibly make you understand that someone can have a difference in their mind between fucked up shit and atrocities. Are you being obtuse?

Who said it was pureed food? Do they give pureed food through IV fluids? Maybe it's a new and pioneering innovation!!

All your posts are TL;DR

Did you read the motherfucking report? The whole CIA report? It's outlined pretty well.

One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan
was administered by enema his “‘lunch tray’ consisting of hummus, pasta
with sauce, nuts and raisins was ‘pureed and rectally infused’”. One CIA
officer’s email was in the report quoted as saying “we used the largest
Ewal [sic] tube we had”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-worst-findings-waterboard-rectal

But you know, rock on being dismissive.

No, I didn't read the report. I never represented that I did. This started out as a discussion on the Pakistani school attack and how I would feel about EIT used on those people, if the were caught, and anyone involved with that plot. It has devolved into hypotheticals and hyperbole.

I didn't know they used pureed food, but that is interesting. Isn't nutrition absorbed in the large intestine? What if it worked? WHAT IF IT SAVED HIS LIFE? Again, just because it's not done, doesn't mean they're not pioneering techniques here.

I have to say no. That's basically saying we're using them to carry out medical experiments, which I'm not comfortable with for one thing, and for another, these would not become medically accepted procedures because they were used successfully on enemy combatants.

Food is absorbed in the large intestine after it's been broken down by the organs involved that necessarily precede it in that process.

I'm not a doctor, but my knowledge of anatomy and bodily functions tells me there is no reason to "feed" anyone through their colon.

Kfran84 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

Kfran84 said:

DebateThis said:

Kfran84 said:

@debatethis I can't possibly make you understand that someone can have a difference in their mind between fucked up shit and atrocities. Are you being obtuse?

Who said it was pureed food? Do they give pureed food through IV fluids? Maybe it's a new and pioneering innovation!!

All your posts are TL;DR

Did you read the motherfucking report? The whole CIA report? It's outlined pretty well.

One CIA cable released in the report reveals that detainee Majid Khan was administered by enema his “‘lunch tray’ consisting of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins was ‘pureed and rectally infused’”. One CIA officer’s email was in the report quoted as saying “we used the largest Ewal [sic] tube we had”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-worst-findings-waterboard-rectal

But you know, rock on being dismissive.

No, I didn't read the report. I never represented that I did. This started out as a discussion on the Pakistani school attack and how I would feel about EIT used on those people, if the were caught, and anyone involved with that plot. It has devolved into hypotheticals and hyperbole.

I didn't know they used pureed food, but that is interesting. Isn't nutrition absorbed in the large intestine? What if it worked? WHAT IF IT SAVED HIS LIFE? Again, just because it's not done, doesn't mean they're not pioneering techniques here.

If you had read her TL;DR post, you would have seen the information that the colon cannot absorb pureed food, and that per the report the procedure was done not out of medical necessity but for behavior control.

This is not a point to double down on. The place for pioneering medical techniques is in controlled studies, in hospitals, by doctors who are subject to ethical rules and oversight (and who, BTW, are prohibited from using prison populations for their studies). Not by CIA operatives using detainees as test subjects.

Ok, ok, I was being an ass then. They shouldn't do that shit. That's fucked up, I agree.

Kfran84 · December 2014

I would like to apologize for my liberal circle jerk comment. I mean, it would be the hottest circle jerk ever, but Dapostrophe was right, it has been a good discussion by and large. That was a rude thing of me to say.

Also, I'm pretty sure my supervisor wants to fire me. She doesn't know the importance of my bump dialogues.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Also, there's really no need to Bat Signal this thread IMO. There's no salacious drama. The Bat Signal seems to be very much for "oh no she di-innnnnnnt" removal of the hoops types of posts. People can mosey over here from other boards if they want and contribute to the discussion in a meaningful manner.

fitmama418 · December 2014

#MFPP

(Mother Fucking Post Police)

((I may change my username guys))

DebateThis · December 2014

MelloChello said:

I'm so late but I have a question... Did the U.S. suffer any consequences for these illegal acts? I'm politically behind, as I've admitted multiple times, so I wouldn't know.

There are usually fines and charges can be brought by the Hague for war crimes but the US has historically broken the law and not followed those or compelled our politicians to appear. Which is honestly why the rest of the world hates us. We think we're above the law and do whatever we damn well please.

cagoldi · December 2014

Dapostrophe said:

Kfran84 said:

I would like to apologize for my liberal circle jerk comment. I mean, it would be the hottest circle jerk ever, but Dapostrophe was right, it has been a good discussion by and large. That was a rude thing of me to say.

Also, I'm pretty sure my supervisor wants to fire me. She doesn't know the importance of my bump dialogues.

If anything I said has inspired bipartisan N13 lovemaking fantasies, then I consider this day a success.

Let me know when we are getting started, I'll bring the Layer Cake Malbec for @finnaroo.

Libs are good in the sack.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

I love you ladies.

DebateThis · December 2014

MelloChello said:

MelloChello said:

I'm so late but I have a question... Did the U.S. suffer any consequences for these illegal acts? I'm politically behind, as I've admitted multiple times, so I wouldn't know.

There are usually fines and charges can be brought by the Hague for war crimes but the US has historically broken the law and not followed those or compelled our politicians to appear. Which is honestly why the rest of the world hates us. We think we're above the law and do whatever we damn well please.
Interesting. Thanks for the information. I think I'll read up on some of this. This thread sparked my interest.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

And the Wiki is actually pretty comprehensive in terms of domestic legislation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_in_the_United_States

fitmama418 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

cagoldi said:

Libs are good in the sack.

We believe in benefits for all.

Ok now that's it I draw the line...NO BIG GOVERNMENT BETWEEN MY SHEETS.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Unless DH's you-know-what has a new nickname then hiyoooooo. #thanksObama

fitmama418 · December 2014

This just got weird.

cagoldi · December 2014

@fitmama418‌ I vehemently oppose anything that's not big between my sheets.

UntaggableKatie · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

fitmama418 said:

LJGS1010 said:

cagoldi said:

Libs are good in the sack.
We believe in benefits for all.
Ok now that's it I draw the line...NO BIG GOVERNMENT BETWEEN MY SHEETS.
You don't want benefits between the sheets? No biggie. Don't apply for them.

Fiscal Conservative but Liberal lover...

fitmama418 · December 2014

UntaggableKatie said:
Fiscal Conservative but Liberal lover...

That's a bumper sticker I'd be down with.

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Sad stories (potential triggers): Pakistan, MontCo PA, etc.

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