Sad stories (potential triggers): Pakistan, MontCo PA, etc.

Kfran84 · December 2014

Sing2phins said:

Kfran84 said:

There are real atrocities in the world. Anal rehydration is not among them.

This is possibly one of the most insensitive things I've seen on TB. I am stunned.

I guess that was my point at the beginning of all of this. I give zero fucks for what happens to these people who make children watch as they set someone on fire and then beat the children and then execute them one by one. I have no sensitivity for them.

You feel bad that they might get an enema?

fitmama418 · December 2014

@meeshkaroni suspected self-inflicted gunshot wound. My browser crashed before the press conference began and I don't feel like pulling it back up since I'm working, as well.

@LJGS1010 no. I wouldn't get up in arms. I'd be mad, yes. I'd feel vengeful. As I said with my stance before...eye for an eye, I guess.

Kfran84 · December 2014

@sing2phins You're right. I am conflating two different things. I feel vengeful, but like I stated in a pp, I don't want my government to carry out vengeance in the form of torture. But, if they catch the people involved and need to interrogate them to prevent their next attack... I don't care if we use enhanced interrogation.

I think the difference between a lot of us is that some of us are able to dehumanize these terrorists. I don't think of them as a fellow human being after these acts.

ETA: My supervisor keeps asking for my work! AH! Gotta crunch numbers for a couple hours.

mskatiep · December 2014

meeshkaroni said:

Kfran84 said:

I think the difference between a lot of us is that some of us are able to dehumanize these terrorists. I don't think of them as a fellow human being after these acts.

Boom. That's it right there.

But how can we just decide that people no longer deserve humanhood? Where is that line? So anyone that does something that is wrong, evil, horrible or even just different we can say "welp, I no longer consider you a human, so I can do whatever I want to you." I believe this mindset has led to many atrocities (genocides) throughout history. You cannot just take away human status.

cagoldi · December 2014

mskatiep said:

meeshkaroni said:

Kfran84 said:

I think the difference between a lot of us is that some of us are able to dehumanize these terrorists. I don't think of them as a fellow human being after these acts.

Boom. That's it right there.

But how can we just decide that people no longer deserve humanhood? Where is that line? So anyone that does something that is wrong, evil, horrible or even just different we can say "welp, I no longer consider you a human, so I can do whatever I want to you." I believe this mindset has led to many atrocities (genocides) throughout history. You cannot just take away human status.

Okay if we're taking crimes against humanity, if you had Hitler sitting across the table and believe you can extract information from him that would spare trains full of innocents from going to his camps you wouldn't use brutal methods to get it?

The moral imperative is to let him wait for his attorney while people are being shoved in ovens? Nope. I don't need to feel like the bigger person, I need to feel like I saved people when given the chance no matter the depths of depravity I had to sink to in order to do just that.

cagoldi · December 2014

I'm comfortable saying that Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler were subhuman.

mskatiep · December 2014

cagoldi said:

mskatiep said:

meeshkaroni said:

Kfran84 said:

I think the difference between a lot of us is that some of us are able to dehumanize these terrorists. I don't think of them as a fellow human being after these acts.

Boom. That's it right there.
But how can we just decide that people no longer deserve humanhood? Where is that line? So anyone that does something that is wrong, evil, horrible or even just different we can say "welp, I no longer consider you a human, so I can do whatever I want to you." I believe this mindset has led to many atrocities (genocides) throughout history. You cannot just take away human status.

Okay if we're taking crimes against humanity, if you had Hitler sitting across the table and believe you can extract information from him that would spare trains full of innocents from going to his camps you wouldn't use brutal methods to get it?

The moral imperative is to let him wait for his attorney while people are being shoved in ovens? Nope. I don't need to feel like the bigger person, I need to feel like I saved people when given the chance no matter the depths of depravity I had to sink to in order to do just that.

------------
My issue is that I'm pretty sure that Hitler believed that Jewish people were subhuman and therefore was justified in killing them. He was wrong obviously, but I can see this mindset being repeated with terrorists of we can just arbitrarily take away humanhood.

cagoldi · December 2014

@makatiep I understand your point but saying torture is 100% wrong, 100% of the time is an extreme position in my view, so I'm using an extreme example.

What's right in that scenario? And if torturing him is wrong, I am just as bad as him because I employed torture? I don't agree with that characterization.

mskatiep · December 2014

@LJGS1010‌ strange day indeed! Ironically enough, I'm my immediate circle, I am BY FAR the most liberal. But not compared to some of you here lol.

mskatiep · December 2014

@cagoldi‌ as I stated up thread, I am conflicted on my feels about torture. In that situation, Idk what I would do personally. But torture has not been shown to be effective, so that is where my hesitation lies. Not that I don't want to save people, but that my torturing someone would not provide the results I want. I would still have to live with myself for torturing someone and also know that because I chose that route instead of another I also failed to save people since torture is not effective.

ETA: IF torture were the ONLY effective way to extract life saving information the maybe, but since it isn't, that is why I can't get behind it.

cagoldi · December 2014

@makatiep I am taking exception to the argument that torturing a terrorist is the moral equivalent of the terrorist's activities.

mskatiep · December 2014

cagoldi said:
@makatiep I am taking exception to the argument that torturing a terrorist is the moral equivalent of the terrorist's activities.

I don't believe that torturing is equivalent to terrorist activities. As in most things in life there are shades of grey. Levels of wrongness for lack of a better phrase.

But my issue is that by having the ability to take away human status based on "our" value system opens us up to the possibility of committing our own form of genocide. All it took was one deranged leader to convince (brainwash) otherwise normal, sane, compassionate people in Germany to participate, condone, and/or do nothing while he slaughtered the people he convinced everyone were subhuman.

This can happen again, and BY US, if we allow ourselves to deem someone human or not. I realize that it is an extreme, but honestly I'm surprised that considering the normal dynamic of this board, that this is even being debated.

cagoldi · December 2014

@Dapostrophe You know I love you, but that particular article just doesn't speak to me.

Yes, Hitler was deranged and had a warped worldview and sought happiness by the destruction of various people he saw as unfit and exterminated them. But if someone's world view is that skewed I don't have a problem with these tactics if it saves innocents. I don't like it, but I can't feel outrage, either.

To say he was not evil because he just wanted happiness, but his actions were pure evil, is just semantics. He was pure fucking evil and yes, torturing him would have been the right thing to do if it spared people. The ends do justify the means.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

You're sweet, MFK, to say I love all humans. My husband would laugh if I told him that. Here's the thing. I've had a horrible person do a horrible, life altering thing to me. It changed absolutely everything about the way I lived my life then, and how I live my life now. If someone told me they could have tortured the fact that it would happen out of him and prevent it from ever happening, I wouldn't accept the offer. There is absolutely, positively nothing that will ever justify torture to me. The consequences of choosing not to relate on a human level are the justice system and martial law. Period.

I have been all over the place with the torture concept. But after reading this I just had to say you are the real deal @LJGS1010‌ . Although I don't know what side of the coin I land on I have the upmost respect for you and your moral compass. I'm not sure who else here has been in a life altering situation where the torture tactic could theoretically be applied, but the fact that you have and you can still remain firm in your belief really gives me something to think about. Thank you.

DebateThis · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

There are real atrocities in the world. Anal rehydration is not among them.

Are you fucking kidding me with this? Anal rape is not an atrocity?? This is quite frankly one of the most disgusting things I've ever read on TB.

Just in case you need a refresher:

8) The CIA sexually assaulted detainees with brutal "rectal exams."

"CIA leadership... was also alerted to allegations that rectal exams were conducted with "excessive force" on two detainees at DETENTION SITE COBALT…. CIA records indicate that one of the detainees, Mustafa al-Hawsawi, was later diagnosed with chronic hemorrhoids, an anal fissure, and symptomaticrectal prolapse." [Executive Summary: Page 100]

Read more: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/10-truly-terrible-things-the-cia-did-in-our-names-because-freedom-20141209#ixzz3M7jDYb3F
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

I get what your saying @MotherEFFingKatie‌ and I would go to the ends of the earth to protect C. However given what we know, that these torturing techniques don't work to gain info, I think it is sadistic that it still continues. And to the extent that it has continued.
And the fact is, the line won't be drawn. It's a slow erosion, folks. One of the tactics used in the report was telling captives that their families were being (or going to be, I can't remember) tortured. Once society becomes 100% okay with toeture being used I certain instances, its a small step to expanding it to reach other people peripherally involved for the sake of saving lives. We do this every single day in America. Just look at abortion laws, speech as political action, etc. We expand and contract laws to fit our needs all the time. Don't think it wouldn't happen in this case, too.
this is where my conflict is with people saying we should value human life for being human life. If you're okay with abortion, because that's not really a life, why are you not okay with ending the life of a "person" who has committed such heinous acts? Why is it not okay for a terrorist, rapist, pedophile to suffer, when they have done something so horrible? Our society says it places so much weight on human life, but does it really?

First, I think it's pretty narrow minded to say people believe "abortion's ok because it's not really a life", by that's neither here nor there.

People who are put to death via death penalty have gone through due process, as in arrest, trial by jury, and sentencing. I am personally not ok with the death penalty because, as it currently stands, it is flawed beyond belief and there are far too many men who get sentenced to death due to eyewitness testimony or screwed up forensics and are later found innocent. This is particularly prevalent among minority men in the south, especially in states like Texas. TX likes to execute black men first and then ask questions later. Beyond that, the appeals process and housing for the death penalty drags on for decades and costs taxpayers millions if not billions of dollars every year.

If there were a way to guarantee the infallibility of the judicial process 100% before we put people on death row for their crimes, I don't think I would have as much of a problem with it. I don't place "more" value on some human lives but not others. I place value on rights - the constitutionally protected rights of a woman to make a medical decision for herself, and the constitutionally protected right of someone accused of a crime to due process.

In the case of Gitmo, NONE of those things have happened. Let's not forget that Gitmo was operated completely extrajudicially. The US is a signatory to the UN Convention Against Torture so we are bound by both international law as well as our own - Article 4, which the United States agreed to, has been completely violated.

Article 4

1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture. 2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

@DebateThis‌- do you feel sorry for this known Al Queda supporter? I'm confused.

I am not sure if you are trying to bait me but I don't give a flying fuck if he supported Al Quaeda or any other organization. Raping a prisoner is NEVER OK.

DebateThis · December 2014

I didn't miss your point. Life "matters" (although I think that's a pretty silly weight of measure) when it has constitutional rights.

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

kamakaziartist said:

@DebateThis‌- do you feel sorry for this known Al Queda supporter? I'm confused.

I am not sure if you are trying to bait me but I don't give a flying fuck if he supported Al Quaeda or any other organization. Raping a prisoner is NEVER OK.
for real?

Uh, yes, for real. This man was never arrested, never tried, never convicted of a crime. He was thrown in Gitmo and raped, repeatedly, along with dozens of other men. That violates not only US law but also international law. There is NEVER EVER EVER EVER a justification for rape. EVER.

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

I didn't miss your point. Life "matters" (although I think that's a pretty silly weight of measure) when it has constitutional rights.
Which part is a silly weight of measure?

Whether a life "matters" or not. You can place moral judgments on whether or not some "matter" less than others but that's not how our legal system works. Or, at least it's not how it's supposed to work.

Kfran84 · December 2014

@cfox815 Doesn't it say that that guy was a known terrorist facilitator? I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound like he was just Joe Schmo walking down the street.

Karadee1 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:
And, re: drawing the line --

I'll just leave this interview from Fox News with Dick Cheney here, where he responds to the fact that a quarter of the people detained and tortured were actually released because -- oops! -- it turned out they shouldn't have been detained in the first place.

TODD: Twenty-five percent of the detainees, though, twenty-five percent turned out to be innocent. They were released.

CHENEY: Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are –

TODD: Well, I’m asking you.

CHENEY: — you going to know?

(CROSSTALK)

TODD: Is that too high? You’re okay with that margin for error?

CHENEY:
I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our
objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another
attack against the United States. I was prepared and we did. We
got the authorization from the president and authorization from the
Justice Department to go forward with the program. It worked. It worked
now for 13 years.

ETA: If this doesn't chill you to the bone, I just don't even know what else to say.

This is terrifying.

@LJGS1010‌ you have said things more eloquently in this thread than I could have, so now that I'm catching up I wanted to say that. I'm not sure I have the fortitude to want to put in anything else but I agree with everything you have said.

Kfran84 · December 2014

@debatethis Yeah... I just can't get outraged over their forced enemas. I tried. Then I remembered that they were fucking scumbags who beat and torture and murder children and their only disappointment of the day is that they only got 100 and not 300.

Is a cavity search a "forced anal exam"? That's a real question.

Karadee1 · December 2014

CFox815 said:
I know we all want to believe that only the Hitlers and Bin Ladens of the world are being tortured, but that's not the way it goes down. I think you should all read this. This was a man who was just named by someone else. He was tortured for four months. He begged for death. He was a husband and father. Imagine your innocent husband being ripped out of your house and subjected to these tactics for no good reason.

I have cried for this man so much since I have heard this story. Can you imagine being tortured so horribly that you don't care if you never see your wife and kids again, you just want to die?

This story is terrifying.

Kfran84 · December 2014

CFox815 said:
I'm also going to highlight this:

The Senate report says that of 119 men who had been in the CIA’s black
sites, 26 didn’t meet the standards of “posing a continuing, serious
threat of violence or death to U.S. persons and interests or planning
terrorist activities.”

That chills me. Absolutely chills me.

I just don't think the CIA picks you up if you're totally innocent and never have anything to do with terrorist activities. Maybe these non-serious threats were people on the periphery or suppliers or safe-house coordinators or technology people. You don't know who they are or what they know. I'm not willing to believe that the CIA is so inept to only do their job right 75% of the time.

Why are you discounting the CIA official's label of him?

Maybe I just make some assumptions that other people don't- like that the CIA is an inherently good force and the people working there are dedicated to protecting us/this country/the world from bad guys.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Whoa. Shit got real after I logged off last night. @-)

ETA: And yes @hobbitwife, I am capable of engaging in conversation other than food and PBK. Shocking, I know.

DebateThis · December 2014

kamakaziartist said:

I get what your saying @MotherEFFingKatie‌ and I would go to the ends of the earth to protect C. However given what we know, that these torturing techniques don't work to gain info, I think it is sadistic that it still continues. And to the extent that it has continued.
And the fact is, the line won't be drawn. It's a slow erosion, folks. One of the tactics used in the report was telling captives that their families were being (or going to be, I can't remember) tortured. Once society becomes 100% okay with toeture being used I certain instances, its a small step to expanding it to reach other people peripherally involved for the sake of saving lives. We do this every single day in America. Just look at abortion laws, speech as political action, etc. We expand and contract laws to fit our needs all the time. Don't think it wouldn't happen in this case, too.
this is where my conflict is with people saying we should value human life for being human life. If you're okay with abortion, because that's not really a life, why are you not okay with ending the life of a "person" who has committed such heinous acts? Why is it not okay for a terrorist, rapist, pedophile to suffer, when they have done something so horrible? Our society says it places so much weight on human life, but does it really?
You missed the point. I made no judgment either way. My use of abortion rights was an example of how there is no such thing as drawing a line. Whether you agree with it or not, the line - for constitutional reasons - was drawn by SCOTUS. And has been systematically moved back, again and again, to the point where some states are basically doing away with abortion altogether. So to say that we could draw a legal line for the use of torture and stick to it is bullshit. Also, this is what you took away from this thread? IMO, if life is so important (even from conception), then I would think torture would be seen as abhorrent. *snip*
The life of a terrorist, a person who knowingly commits heinous and terrible crimes, does not matter to me. Absolutely not.

Too bad none of these men have actually been found guilty of terrorism. As has been said over and over again, they were detained without any due process under ANY court of law or system of justice. In doing so, Americans have broken hundreds of our own laws and the laws of the International Criminal Court. And then 25% of them were found to be innocent. So you are arguing that it's totally fine to torture and rape men without any trial other than someone accused them of being terrorists. The last time I heard, the United States was not Soviet Russia.

UntaggableKatie · December 2014

Gaaahhhh, I can't quit this post!

I haven't commented yet because I haven't been able to formulate anything that hasn't already been said... but after discussing this topic with DH, his opinion on torture this is and I agree with him... it's somewhat of a self-reflective question

"Could you do that to somebody? And if you couldn't, do you think the government should? Basically, do you want your government to do your dirty work..."

I can see the side of "well that's the governments job, to keep us safe" Well, is this the right way to go about it? Ineffective torture? To me, it makes us sound like a bully that has an ant under a magnifying glass...

There's my two cents...

DebateThis · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

@debatethis Yeah... I just can't get outraged over their forced enemas. I tried. Then I remembered that they were fucking scumbags who beat and torture and murder children and their only disappointment of the day is that they only got 100 and not 300.

Is a cavity search a "forced anal exam"? That's a real question.

Did you miss the point where this was more than an enema? You don't get a fucking rectal prolapse or fissures from an enema. This was a repeated, brutal, violent ASSAULT.

Did you also miss the point where MANY of these men were found to have no part of AQ? So they were raped for no good reason and now are going to suffer lasting serious health concerns because of it.

Oh, and I feel like a little Dostoyevsky is relevant here. You can judge a society by how it treats its prisoners. Yes, you really can.

UntaggableKatie · December 2014

@wedding06, exactly... I don't think I could ever submit another person to that type/level of pain... no matter how ragey I get over the actions and sad events of the world

fitmama418 · December 2014

Sing2phins said:

I knew I shouldn't have opened this this morning. Mother fucker. I don't have adequate words to say how disappointed I am. I'm sure that doesn't matter- who am I, right? - but I am so sad about this thread.

People are entitled to their opinions and their feelings. A lot of the women who expressed opposite opinions (myself included) still indicated how they were conflicted or that they know that torture is wrong. I think it's condescending to say "I'm disappointed in you." I'd hope any personal relationships you now have with moms on here weren't tarnished.

This thread went in the TOTAL opposite direction I thought it would, and I'm not complaining. It's healthy to hash these things out and educate people and despite our differences I've learned a lot from both @LJGS1010 and @DebateThis (as always).

fitmama418 · December 2014

Sing2phins said:

fitmama418 said:

Sing2phins said:

I knew I shouldn't have opened this this morning. Mother fucker. I don't have adequate words to say how disappointed I am. I'm sure that doesn't matter- who am I, right? - but I am so sad about this thread.

People are entitled to their opinions and their feelings. A lot of the women who expressed opposite opinions (myself included) still indicated how they were conflicted or that they know that torture is wrong. I think it's condescending to say "I'm disappointed in you." I'd hope any personal relationships you now have with moms on here weren't tarnished.

This thread went in the TOTAL opposite direction I thought it would, and I'm not complaining. It's healthy to hash these things out and educate people and despite our differences I've learned a lot from both @LJGS1010 and @DebateThis (as always).

I think I'm also entitled to my feelings of disappointment and sadness. Don't you dare police me. I do not understand how it's condescending to say that I'm disappointed to learn that people I consider friends can so casually dismiss the lives of other human beings and condone rape as punishment because the victims are terrible people. That is fundamentally opposite to everything I believe in, so of course I'm disappointed.

So I guess now that's twice that I feel like you've spoken to me like I'm a child. One, maybe not warranted and spun in a different direction. You're right. You can go ahead and feel disappointed. But this? I wasn't policing you. All I said was I think it's condescending.

This is actually really fucking rude to me.

fitmama418 · December 2014

The first time was when you said you were disappointed. Which I clarified...but I still feel talked down to. On both comments. Unfortunately, the apology changes nothing.

fitmama418 · December 2014

I just need a little time. It was just a bit of a gut punch coming from someone I consider to be close with on the group.

fitmama418 · December 2014

klongoria11 said:

@fitmama418 Did you hear they found the guy in Pennsylvania. He killed himself. I feel horrible for the family. Especially for the two girls who lost both parents and extended family all in one day.

Yes I did; I think I posted an update yesterday afternoon up-thread. My heart really, truly does break for those two girls: for losing their mother, for having a monster of a father, and for what he did that could arguably, potentially ruin them for life. Forget about the holidays here on out. What a dark time.

cagoldi · December 2014

I'm drawing a line at rape, even if it seems arbitrary. Torture is dehumanizing enough without employing those methods. I don't want to say we never torture under any circumstance, but I do want to know that we never use sexual assault among the tactics.

Kfran84 · December 2014

I'm disappointed that some people seem only able to hear/appreciate their own viewpoint as validated by others.

You guys can carry on with the liberal groupthink circlejerk if you want.

I'm not surprised by anyone's reaction to this thread. Keep patting yourselves on the back for your 100% black and white stance on this topic. Congrats!

I've not been out to win hearts and minds on this. I wasn't even arguing anything. I've just been saying how I feel about these things. I don't need this kind of validation, but, for the record, and since we love to post links, I'm in the majority as cited by this poll in 2012 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/torture-poll-2012_n_2301492.html and this one from yesterday https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Kfran84 said:

I'm disappointed that some people seem only able to hear/appreciate their own viewpoint as validated by others.

You guys can carry on with the liberal groupthink circlejerk if you want.

I'm not surprised by anyone's reaction to this thread. Keep patting yourselves on the back for your 100% black and white stance on this topic. Congrats!

Oof. Ok now, I'm starting to feel like this thread is heading towards:

That made me clutch my pearls and I'm a Republican. Let's keep it real, but also keep it respectful everyone.

I'M THE MOTHER FUCKING POST POLICE.

fitmama418 · December 2014

(and I say that last line mostly in jest because @Sing2Phins hashed it out behind the scenes and we're good now)

Kfran84 · December 2014

I never said it was ok, I said it's not an atrocity.

An atrocity is being foced to drown your own baby in a North Korean prison camp. An atrocity is a 94-year old couple being beaten to death by home invaders and the husband forced to watch as his wife of 70 years is raped and beaten. An atrocity is being force-invited to watch your daughter and her friends be machine gunned down in a public execution. An atrocity is being sent a video of your son having his head sawed off with a blunt knife.

There are horrors in this world to get your hackles up about, for me, this falls short of that.

It's not ok to rape people... never said it was or that I support it as a tactic of EIT.

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