Sad stories (potential triggers): Pakistan, MontCo PA, etc.

fitmama418 · December 2014

This time of year, especially, I can't wrap my head around senseless violence. It makes my heart hurt. No more than 30 miles from my home, a madman is on the loose after having killed 6 and injuring 1 of his family members. Now, I hear of a Taliban suicide bombing at a school in Pakistan.

I can't.

fitmama418 · December 2014

I'm realizing now this is borderline DD-ing. Grrr...sorry about that. I just have a lot of feels this morning and didn't want to put this on the daily thread as a big downer.

Kfran84 · December 2014

The Pakistan school situation was described much, much more graphically on the news story I saw on MSNBC this morning. It was completely sick and rage-inducing.

It makes me give zero fucks that we waterboard terrorists. Fuck 'em. For real.

fitmama418 · December 2014

I don't watch MSNBC, @KFran84. In general, I feel a lot of these stories are described and reported way too graphically. I'm not saying the situations should be minimized at all but...the way it's covered at times? I can't help but think the coverage achieve what the bad guys want it to, you know?

UntaggableKatie · December 2014

I don't think this is DD, this is a place where we can express our feels, happy, sad or othewise.

It is just sad to think what the world has come to...

Kfran84 · December 2014

No, I mean, you put the trigger warnings in the title @fitmama418. It's something that I would hope many of us are thinking about today.

I agree with you that I was shocked at how much detail they went into on the news report I heard. Part of me wishes I had not heard it. But that's an interesting situation.. do we want our news edited or do we want the whole story?

I guess I err on wanting the whole story. Even if it disgusts me, sickens me, gives me nightmares, or makes me cry. It gives me better context to know how I feel when the question of what the U.S.'s role in the world is.

Kfran84 · December 2014

@LJGS1010 I wouldn't say that we are remotely, even at our worst, on the same level as them. As far as intelligence gathered, it wasn't that it was not reliable or actionable, the criticism that I have heard is that it could have been gathered in other ways (i.e. surveillance or phone tapping), but how could you know that before interrogating?

I want to teach my child the difference between madmen/monsters and innocent people and emphasize that it's important not to paint a group with broad strokes. But if they have caught any of these terrorists at the school, or catch any one who was in any way connected with the plan to carry this out, I want to pour water on their faces and make them stand, sleep deprived and hungry, in a cold room until they are ready to tell me what I need to know to disable their network forever and prevent future atrocities.

It's so, so sad. I can't imagine what must go on in the minds of these lunatics. I really can't wrap my head around it.

rbtrumpet · December 2014

I wasn't going to open this thread, but I'm glad I did. I've been living under a rock (family, friends, DD, work) - I hadn't heard about the Sydney thing until yesterday, and I hadn't heard about the Pakistan thing until right now. Ridiculous.

I agree, it's so hard to hear, especially at this time of the year.

But - I'm glad I opened this thread for this story:

LJGS1010 said:

Also, when these completely horrible things happen? We should be responding like this: https://mic.com/articles/106442/australians-show-the-world-exactly-how-to-respond-to-terrorism-with-ill-ride-with-you. Hat tip to @debatethis for leading me to this.

That is awesome!

fitmama418 · December 2014

@LJGS1010 thank you so much for sharing that. AMAZING.

Regardless of your religious beliefs or lack there of, we should always be compassionate and selfless towards one another. I know during the holidays acts of good will take the spotlight, and I'm guilty of doing about 80% of my annual giving of time and money this time of year...but please, if not other time of the year, consider how you can bring some beauty to this ugly world today, tomorrow, etc.

We need it.

Kfran84 · December 2014

I know, I love you too. I respect you a ton, but what do we do with these people now?

What do we do when we unravel who all was involved with this? Bring these people in, right? Ask them where their headquarters are, how they are funded, who's the shot-caller, what plans are on deck... try to save more innocent lives. How? How on earth do we do that without giving free reign (rein? I never know that one) to the people that we put in place to interrogate?

One of the sickest parts of this attack is that it's a school where many military official's children go to school... the people who are trying to keep order and peace and fight the Taliban. I am just so brokenhearted. How do we stop this?

Kfran84 · December 2014

I'll also say my opinions are colored by the absolute horror stories that were brought back to me by my BIL, who spent 21 months in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, more stuff I wish I didn't know, but do.. and now I have to reconcile some very complicated feelings.

TJHine · December 2014

LizB8943 said:
I felt this way after Newtown a couple years ago, @fitmama418. I remember just losing it and bawling on my way to the mall to do some Christmas shopping shortly after the shootings there, thinking about those poor children and families.

It breaks my heart, b/c worrying about a school shooting was NOT on my radar growing up...it just wasn't. Our little elementary school was so sweet and happy and felt so secure. I know that different generations worry about different things (for our parents, it was the Cold War and doing duck & cover/bomb drills). But how do you (do you?) prepare your child to go to school and say, "now in the event that someone comes into your classroom with a gun..." I just can't imagine, but this is likely a conversation we'll have to have with our children at some point.

As a teacher, I was terrified about this from both a job and mom perspective. It's so scary. I was in lock down at my school during 12/14 and it was easily one of the scariest days of my life. But seeing the families be so strong and fight for what is right now, is pretty amazing. Not that it takes away the evil, but it is inspiring.

ETA: posted too soon.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

Thank you for sharing the link @LJGS1010‌. It makes my heart hurt that the U.S. is used as a bad example more often than not. I truly hope that I can teach my kids to see each individual and not categorize by race or religion etc. We are already working on this with C.

Also re: torture. No matter what these people have done they are still human. There is no excuse to use torture tactics IMO.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

Also my Bil is a marine. Has been to Iraq twice Afghanistan three times. He and I have had long emotionally heart wrenching discussions about what he saw and had to do. I promise you he will never support acting out in violence to gain intelligence. Not only for those being tortured but for those doing the torturing.

Eta I am not implying that he tortured anyone. He did not as far as I know.

fitmama418 · December 2014

So, can't it be argued that BOTH methods: enhanced interrogation and "loving thy enemy" (which is essentially what the proven successful method is) are both dishonest and wrong?

And isn't the second borderline traitorous?

fitmama418 · December 2014

MotherEFFingKatie said:

Somebody needs to invent truth serum. #harrypottergotitright

Or just, "Don't take the lives of the innocent" serum. I'll accept either.

fitmama418 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

Also, DID @FITMAMA418 JUST ENGAGE IN POLITICAL DISCUSSION WITH ME?

I think my head might explode.

:x

I did...and over a topic we couldn't possibly be MORE OPPOSITE over. Boom!!

fitmama418 · December 2014

(Discalimer: While our opinions may differ vastly please know and remember I'm still a logical person who understands the law, the "why," etc. lol)

Kfran84 · December 2014

Mommyxtwo1113 said:

Also my Bil is a marine. Has been to Iraq twice Afghanistan three times. He and I have had long emotionally heart wrenching discussions about what he saw and had to do. I promise you he will never support acting out in violence to gain intelligence. Not only for those being tortured but for those doing the torturing. Eta I am not implying that he tortured anyone. He did not as far as I know.

@mommyxtwo1113

You're totally right. I am not comfortable disclosing what I know my BIL had to do. I know that it was one of the more effed up things that happened to him over there.

So, are we okay then with less violent, but still uncomfortable means of interrogation? I mean, how far off are these tactics from what our law enforcement officers are able to do to criminals in the U.S.? I'm talking sleep deprivation, starvation or limited diet, climate control, physical discomfort like being forced to stand for long hours, or being scared/threatened in general. Like, when I hear that we let dogs bark at the prisoners in Guantanamo, I just do not feel a moral outrage on behalf of the terrorist detainees.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

I have a lot of feelings but I don't want to get into it until I'm at a computer.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

@LJGS1010‌ I agree with you. What message are we sending allowing these acts?

[Deleted User] · December 2014

When I think about things like this I always think two things "what would I feel if the victim was my child?" And "what would I feel if the aggressor was my child". I have to reconcile something that I am comfortable with for both situations. I don't know if this makes any sense and it may sound stupid but its how I work through some things in my head.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

@MotherEFFingKatie‌ I can understand that people feel that way and it would never change my opinion of you. However I don't think as a country we can condone torture as being acceptable for any reason including gaining intelligence. It devalues a human life and isn't that exactly what the aggressors are doing?

Kfran84 · December 2014

@meeshkaroni

I think being conflicted is the right way to be. I'm not pro-torture with no conflicts about it. I have so, so many conflicts about it.

@mothereffingkatie pretty much how I'm feeling right now. I know I'm very emotional about it and if it were up to me, I'd be ripping people's throats out. All I can think of is if someone did that to my baby--- I think I could kill with my bare hands. Clearly, you've read the details I heard earlier today.

I don't want our CIA/Government to have the same emotional response as me. I'm not for our government torturing for vengeance, but if some bad shit happens to them when they're being interrogated... I'm really not upset by it.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

@LizB8943‌ I agree that should my child ever be an aggressor the yes they should be held accountable. However torture should never be an option. Can you ever imagine your child doing something so heinous that you would be okay with them being tortured?

[Deleted User] · December 2014

@mithereffingkatie I don't mean this to be snarky AT ALL. What would be the line that someone had to cross then in order for it to be considered OK to torture them?

Kfran84 · December 2014

Mommyxtwo1113 said:

@LizB8943‌ I agree that should my child ever be an aggressor the yes they should be held accountable. However torture should never be an option. Can you ever imagine your child doing something so heinous that you would be okay with them being tortured?

Now this is an interesting take... I really need to marinate on this. I've never thought this way before. I think I'd be okay with him being subjected to extreme discomfort/ psychological torture and even waterboarding.

I don't want people shoving bamboo shoots under his fingernails, but I think there are levels of torture and, again, I don't think our gov't gets anywhere near to the worst of what people do/have done to each other for millennia.

Kfran84 · December 2014

Mommyxtwo1113 said:

@mithereffingkatie I don't mean this to be snarky AT ALL. What would be the line that someone had to cross then in order for it to be considered OK to torture them?

@mommyxtwo1113

Are we still talking for purposes of interrogation?

ETA: I have to go work, and lunch! BRB in about 2-3 hours. Sorry to post and run.

fitmama418 · December 2014

I understand not wanting to stoop to the level of your aggressor...but at the same time, I feel like in order to come out on top you have to project a more powerful air...at least in war. We are, and will forever be at war with terrorists at home and around the world. Being gentle in our tactics of punishment sadly will always have these men (and women) coming out on top. I'm sorry.

Interestingly enough, my purpose of bringing up these events kind of goes against all that. My intent wasn't to cause strife between those of us on opposing sides of the matter of torture. I wanted to take this as an opportunity to appreciate where we live, what we have, and essentially to strive to be decent human beings to account for the large handful of indecent ones among us.

Well look at that...being the bigger person? Maybe it WILL make a difference here.

mskatiep · December 2014

I have a lot of feels on this subject, a lot of them conflict, but for the most part I'm against torture. I read a report about a man that was so broken that just by the interrogator snapping their fingers the man got into position for more torture. Can you imagine being so mentally and physically broken that at the snap of a finger you accepted torture?

But on the other hand, I am not the most forgiving person, and so I have to reconcile my desire for vengeance against the usefulness of torture. Since it has not proven useful, are we ok with it because we really just want them to suffer anyway? If I were truly honest I would have to say that I would be more ok with just killing terrorists than torturing them, but then again, that would make us no better than them. I have a lot of conflict between vengeance and "the right thing."

fitmama418 · December 2014

mskatiep said:

But on the other hand, I am not the most forgiving person, and so I have to reconcile my desire for vengeance against the usefulness of torture. Since it has not proven useful, are we ok with it because we really just want them to suffer anyway? If I were truly honest I would have to say that I would be more ok with just killing terrorists than torturing them, but then again, that would make us no better than them. I have a lot of conflict between vengeance and "the right thing."

Thank you for saying what I've been struggling with finding the right words for all day. It was much simpler than I was thinking, it turns out.

cagoldi · December 2014

I don't have as much time to devote to this thread as I'd like and I know my opinion here will disappoint people I have come to love and respect.

While I agree we should not employ methods of torture, I don't believe doing so is "stooping to their level." When it comes to terrorists executing helpless children and how we deal with them I just can't apply a principle of universality as strongly as I would otherwise.

Is it our unconditional imperative that we must never resort to torture? Yes, I believe so, as noted up thread it's been proven ineffective. But isn't it also an absolute requirement that we take measures to prevent the senseless acts of violence against vulnerable members of society? As human beings we are all obligated not to treat other people with brutality, but doing so in the name of seeking information to protect potential victims is not as morally bankrupt as those who would just seek victims.

ETA: I like to think we will always act in accordance with our principles, but on this issue I believe the question for some becomes whether or not we sacrifice that for the sake of safety. Is it our moral imperative to always refrain from using methods of torture or is it use any means necessary to extract information that could prevent future attacks?

cagoldi · December 2014

@LJGS1010‌ I agree it's ineffective, but I'm entertaining the question as a purely philosophical exercise.

If A was on a bus with a bomb and I have that SOB who planted it sitting right in front of me you better believe I'm clawing out his fucking eyeballs trying to get him to tell me how to disarm it. Moral high ground be damned.

cagoldi · December 2014

@LJGS1010‌ No, but I'm saying there is a continuum and torturing innocents because of a sick, fucked up delusion is not the same as torturing combatants in efforts to prevent violent attacks. I don't disagree it doesn't work, I just can't agree that with the characterization that we can't distinguish our actions as different from theirs because we have different intentions.

fitmama418 · December 2014

Sing2phins said:

cagoldi said:

@LJGS1010‌ I agree it's ineffective, but I'm entertaining the question as a purely philosophical exercise. If A was on a bus with a bomb and I have that SOB who planted it sitting right in front of me you better believe I'm clawing out his fucking eyeballs trying to get him to tell me how to disarm it. Moral high ground be damned.

You understand that he's not going to tell you, right? And that what you're feeling when you want to claw his eyeballs out is fear for your child; your government should not be operating from that subjective standpoint.

Also, I just cannot get behind the idea that "the US does not torture" makes us look weak. I think it makes us look like civilized people who respect the dignity of all human beings. Which is the least I expect from my government.

Not to our enemies it doesn't.

cagoldi · December 2014

I think we should refrain from using enhanced interrogation techniques because they are ineffective, not because I am willing to condemn them as immoral 100 % of the time is what I'm trying to get at.

Torture should never be used as a form of punishment. If torture is undertaken as a means of gleaning information and were proven successful, I somewhat reluctantly admit that I would support it.

Kfran84 · December 2014

No. North Korea force-invites people to witness the machine-gunning of their families. And forces mothers in political detention camps to drown their own babies.

So waterboarding sounds really nice compared to that.

Kfran84 · December 2014

There are real atrocities in the world. Anal rehydration is not among them.

Kfran84 · December 2014

Also, CIA Director Jon Brennan is pushing back on this Senate report that says that none of the techniques used were effective. His criticisms, which, if true, deserve some consideration, i.e. that the Senate Committee only reviewed documents and did not interview anyone involved in the interrogations. Also, he says the Senate doesn't fully understand how the CIA uses the intelligence gathered. Isn't his pushback valid? What if he's right?

ETA: changed "saying" to "that says" for clarity.

fitmama418 · December 2014

LJGS1010 said:

And, since we're asking questions:

Let's say North Korea captures an American within North Korean borders and (rightly or wrongly) suspects them of being a spy working to aid US sympathizers in overthrowing the current dictatorship.

They waterboard him because they legitimately feel like he will provide useful intelligence that will stop the planned coup and related likely deaths.

Would you all be horrified?

Horrified is a strong word here. Surprised? No.

In other news, there's been an update on the PA shooting spree I'd mentioned in my initial post. Law enforcement official have reported: "Bradley Stone, the man prosecutors say is responsible for killing his ex-wife and five of her family members and shooting one other before going on the run, has been found dead in the woods near his home." Press conference forthcoming.

cagoldi · December 2014

I don't think people who are capable of beheading children care whether or not we respect the dignity of all human beings. I don't think it's even a concept they comprehend based on those actions.

Is the need to protect people from terrorist attacks greater than the need to say, well shit, we had that fucker locked up and knew he was planning a large scale assault but I feel so damn good about the fact that we bonded over childhood stories and cookie dough ice cream so I'll sleep just fine tonight even though he slaughtered 30 school kids?

Again, I acknowledge it doesn't work, but I'm saying if it did I think the imperative is to get any information we can. The right of the schoolchildren to live supersedes the terrorist's right to not be subjected to torture.

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