Ohhhh, I've got another one! Mandatory Sterilization! Let's do this thing!

ally2011 · December 2014

Soooooooo, at a DSS visit the other week, 3 kids came out of a visit with their birth mom. They all went to separate foster families and were mostly melting down. That is not uncommon after visits - kids want to be with mom (or dad in some cases) and don't understand why they can't be. I have heard that kids can regress and have behavior issues for days after these encounters and that can be really hard on foster families too.

Anywho, there is a 4th kid that was not there. But mom was also pregnant....with twins....#5 and #6. Honestly, seeing that put me in a funk for a couple days, but that's neither here nor there for this post.

So here is the question - at some point does a person lose their right to keep making people if they cannot or will not care for the people they have already made? If so, what is that number - 1? If you have 1 child that you are not able to care for, should you lose the right to have any more? Is it 2? Is it 3?

Sure, sometimes parents get it together and can parent their children and in those cases that is WONDERFUL. But that still comes usually after children having to be uprooted and moved into another home for some period of time, and that usually is not short. But when they can't get it together, kids are stuck in the system for years sometimes. And the outcomes for kids in foster care are terrible from everything from homeless rates to suicide rates to poverty rates and on and on.

So what say ye February 13? Is there ever a point at which a man or woman should be prevented from further reproduction based on having existing children they cannot or will not care for?

Rynleigh · December 2014

I don't agree with *forced* surgery or permanent body modification against a person's will unless their lives or the lives of another are in immediate danger... but I do believe in extreme measures to encourage and support and educate people into making healthy choices.... I would LOVE for medical sterilization to be covered at 100% to ANY adult human being, and for education courses to be both required and covered (hell, I'd even support paying people to receive certain education courses regarding their reproductive health and options) in the event of unplanned pregnancies, terminations, adoptions, etc.

singingsea · December 2014

Despite how I agree with you that there are terrible people who should not breed doesn't mean anyone should ^ what Rynleigh said be forced into any sort of medical procedure against their will. They're pieces of shit but this is not 1984.

ally2011 · December 2014

What about IUDs for some period of time? I struggle with this because honestly, I used to say never, but now, having seen so many broken children, I'm not so sure.

I feel like there should be consequences to continuing to make people and allowing them to suffer. I feel like not having them elevates an individual's rights above everyone else's - above the rights of the children not to suffer, above the rights of society not to have to pay for it and manage it.

Choices have consequences. You lose freedoms for committing crimes and we are all ok with that. Why should you not lose freedoms for this?

ally2011 · December 2014

And if you say never, much like the church/abortion law article I posted - are you willing to step up and help with all of the unwanted children? Because if no one is willing to do it, and the parents aren't/can't then what? Our county had 4 families on their vacancy list at one point over the summer....and they took in 4 kids in one day.

tamarar5 · December 2014

I disagree in forced sterilization.

But if we're asking if we know people who might be candidates? I know more than a couple.

jenniferraborn · December 2014

I have all the feels on this one....will make time to write an intelligent response later. I struggle with this because there are some awful awful parents out there who for some reason seem to have the most kids but letting the government mandate a medical procedure is scary. Do you limit it to women because ....i know of some very good male candidates as well. I know SOOOOO many foster kids that have brothers / sisters that are born while they were in care (including my FS that I have had for 16 mths and whose mother has never passed a drug test so..... all the feels.) or people who have lost 2,3,4 kids in separate occasions(I have a child in that situation as well).....

ally2011 · December 2014

jenniferraborn said:

I have all the feels on this one....will make time to write an intelligent response later. I struggle with this because there are some awful awful parents out there who for some reason seem to have the most kids but letting the government mandate a medical procedure is scary. Do you limit it to women because ....i know of some very good male candidates as well. I know SOOOOO many foster kids that have brothers / sisters that are born while they were in care (including my FS that I have had for 16 mths and whose mother has never passed a drug test so..... all the feels.) or people who have lost 2,3,4 kids in separate occasions(I have a child in that situation as well).....

Oh no, men too....equal opportunity over here

ally2011 · December 2014

How about mandatory depo shot until you are able to care for the children you have already made? Would anyone be ok with that?

ally2011 · December 2014

There is a lady that DSS told us about in training that kept having kids and told DSS that she would keep having them until she got to keep one. She finally got to keep number 12. So, the mom's freedom to keep having kids trumps the rights of those 11 kids to have a stable start at life? I strongly disagree.

ally2011 · December 2014

Even for a shot that is not permanent and only restricts freedoms until a person gets it together to parent the people they already made?

ally2011 · December 2014

I need to do that too! These people keep wanting to eat!

Rynleigh · December 2014

I have very strong emotions regarding child welfare. I provide childcare for a FAS survivor who was adopted by his paternal grandmother. I understand the hate and pain and frustration. But I also have gained better perspective, in recent years.

The view changed, for me, after a long and heated debate about criminal charges for delivering a child harmed by drugs or alcohol. These kinds of consequences, I came to understand, do not reduce the chances of a woman harming a fetus with substances or practices - what these consequences *do* cause are women to avoid prenatal, neonatal, and postnatal care. They cause GREATER harm than doing nothing, at all. What is needed is incentive to obtain support, education, resources, and opportunities for these women. Not consequences that drive them into hiding. Forced surgeries and permanent body modifications are not positive solutions.

jenniferraborn · December 2014

I do not believe that more education is the answer. I am 100% for providing free birth control and sterilization to ANYONE who wants it. However, I don't think education can fix the problem of people having and mistreating children. I have listened to a meth addict with 3 kids tell me she wants 5. Education just can't fix that. It is not that she does not understand that she can not afford or have the ability to care for more kids (or the ones she already has) or that she does not know how to prevent having more kids, it is that she does not want to prevent it. I don't understand how education can fix someone in that situation. Access to medical information and care is an essential tool but how do you address those who have many kids intentionally in bad situations?

As awful as people can be and as reckless with their reproductive rights as they can be, I do not think I can agree with forced permanent sterilization. I could possibly get on board with a mandated IUD while the government is taking care of your children / you. I don't quite have it in mind what the details of the implementation of such a mandate would be though....

Rynleigh · December 2014

In education, support, and resources, I do also mean to refer to treatment programs (I did not specify that in the list here, because the point I was making was regarding my views on sterilization, not drug use - repeated childbirth and child abuse do NOT always involve drugs... my LDS substance-free parents birthed and abused five children). I do not mean simply sitting people down in a classroom with books and videos. Consequences that drive people away from seeking out any kind of help out of fear of surgery, imprisonment, or fines are not solutions. They are new problems.

jenniferraborn · December 2014

I do know you are correct about all abuse certainly not involving drugs. That was just an example. I also do know that people can change their lives for the better which is also why I am not on board with permanent sterilization. That particular mother is now two years later doing well with her children and she had hit rock bottom.

I also hear you when you say that rehab is a form of education and I didn't really think about it that way but I agree with that. But while offering that treatment which is often refused for months / years, are you on board with STRONGLY encouraging if not mandating some form of birth control?

"Consequences that drive people away from seeking out any kind of help out of fear of surgery, imprisonment, or fines are not solutions. They are new problems. "

I get what you are saying here to an extent (such as your example about people giving birth to addicted / alcohol effected babies) and I agree with that part but, mandating birth control for people who have already lost their children for mistreatment doesn't keep people from seeking help before they are involved in the legal system right? I mean, if someone is an addict, or has mental health issues or whatever that they would want / need to seek help for and they commit other crimes there are consequences such as prision etc so why is child abuse any different? I feel like you are going to have a good explanation for this, I am genuinely trying to understand so don't think i'm just being an ass :-)

I dunno, I suck at debating and I hate confrontation, I really want to know peoples opinions on this because it is something that I have a lot of internal conflict over. Its hard to balance the rights of parents with the rights of the child (before or after birth).

PhieryBFly · December 2014

What about a choice? I'm pulling this idea from a sci-fi book I read a long time ago but the options for serious crimes in that society were castration (it mainly focused on males) or significant prison time.

holly321 · December 2014

I am not fully opposed to forced sterilization. I believe there is way too much gray area for it to work. The US Government does crazy things (ie Texas execution happening today to a man with schizophrenia )

Here is an example of why I am not fully opposed. My mom has a cousin, she had 4 kids, all taken away from her for being an unfit mother. I don't fully know the reasons, but from what I remember of her, I am not surprised. I do remember something about the baby being really sick, and the older children having cigarette burns. As they removed her children from her home, she said, "I don't care, take them, I can always have more." She should not be allowed to have more children.

TarheelMama202 · December 2014

Forced sterilization happened in NC until 1973. Woof.

tamarar5 · December 2014

TarheelMama202 said:
Forced sterilization happened in NC until 1973. Woof. </blockquote
*******quote fail*******

Whut?

cinnasugar · December 2014

TarheelMama202 said:

Forced sterilization happened in NC until 1973. Woof.

I read about this before. Crazy.

kelly321 · December 2014

Actually I have a footnote in my dissertation about forced sterilization based on eugenics. The last forced sterilization of a convict in Oregon was in the 1980s (don't remember the year exactly). I am 100% against forced sterilization. Absolutely, positively no. Free depo or IUD? Now that I approve. And I would have conflicted feelings about requiring a depo or IUD while you have children in government care. Maybe more details later if this discussion continues, but now I've got to get to work!

djm31012 · December 2014

I agree with @expatmama that these people should be thrown into prison. Although my fear is that they will just forego telling anyone they are pregnant then throw the baby in a dumpster like many do anyway and then we are worse off. I dont think I am totally opposed to forced sterilization to be honest. I think there are tons of people who dont deserve the right and priveledge it is to reproduce. Do what you want with your own life, dont screw up someone elses.

kleigh926 · December 2014

I get where you're coming from ally, and there's a part of me that agrees with you that at least birth control (like a shot or IUD) should be mandatory for people who can't or won't care for their children. But in practice, it would be too difficult to draw the line and decide exactly how it would work out. I agree with everyone saying it's a slippery slope.... I feel like it could quickly turn into regulating birth control or sterilization where it's not necessary, or even for everyone in the future. Too much of a gray area for me. Something should be done though, to prevent these children's lives from being ruined. It would probably require some combination of education, available long-term birth control options, and prison for people who intentionally keep having kids and shouldn't be.

draeray · December 2014

I have so many emotions on this since I have a son whom I adopted because his birth mom (my 1st cousin) was an awful parent--I won't bore you with the details but she is someone who should NEVER EVER EVER have children again.

Part of me wants to say Hell yes mandate that shit! When you stopped caring about the life you created whether it be drugs or abuse or whatever else and you disregard their life, then you no longer get a choice for yourself. Period. That is the consequence of your actions and you don't get the option to keep f'ing up other children's lives leaving other people to try and pick up the pieces.

The other part of me doesn't want the government getting involved because of far too many reasons to list while I am at work.

ally2011 · December 2014

expatmama said:

ally2011 said:

Even for a shot that is not permanent and only restricts freedoms until a person gets it together to parent the people they already made?

No. Still no. Because who would get to decide this? A politician? A group of my peers? My doctor? Social Services? I don't want any of those people deciding what I put in my body. I get to decide that. So no, they don't get to decide that for anyone, even people who behave abhorrently.

If having multiple children you cannot or do not want to support or care for should be treated like a crime, then put these people in prison -- there they cannot have more children. Make it a crime that will be overseen by a court of law and have a punishment that is considered constitutionally sound.

Forcing birth control is not constitutional nor is it ethical for the medical field.

I was thinking of a law that says if you have, let's say 2, children already that you are unable or unwilling to care for, then you must be on birth control until you are a fit parent (even if it ends up being too late to parent the existing 2). Maybe they can pick the shot or IUD. Prison is a loss of more freedoms, not sure why that's better....plus it is a huge additional cost to society. People make choices. Choices have consequences. If I rob a bank, I might go to jail, I know that and if I assume the risk anyway then that's on me. Same principle would be in place here.

ally2011 · December 2014

Sterling13 said:

Everything @expatmama‌ just said. The line is impossible to draw, and if ever there was a time for a slippery slope argument this is it. No babies for poor people?

Who said anything about poor people? Poor people can be great parents, rich people can be terrible ones. I am talking about child welfare and why it's not fair to a lot of people for people to keep making babies they can't or won't care for.

ally2011 · December 2014

Sterling13 said:

Also too, make birth control for women free and accessible. Free condoms at a clinic does not cut it.

I might agree on more free options, but not sure what the problem is with condoms. When we have not wanted to make a baby, we used them.

ally2011 · December 2014

There could be a holiday campaign about wrapping it up....

ally2011 · December 2014

What about like a previous poster said and provide a choice between prison and depo and IUD?

jenniferraborn · December 2014

ally2011 said:

What about like a previous poster said and provide a choice between prison and depo and IUD?

I was talking to my husband about this last night and that was pretty much his solution.

Rynleigh · December 2014

It is still creating a deterrent that just encourages women to go into hiding and stop voluntarily relinquishing their children into the safety of care from the state... driving women to retain custody that even they know they should not have simply to avoid being forced to choose between reproductive rights and prison is a very real consequence to that scenario. Encouraging women to take advantage of services - including birth control, sterilization, rehabilitation, support groups, mental health care, housing, medical care, and parenting classes - and to provide those services at zero cost, is the most positive approach that can be taken at this stage in our societal evolution. We've "been there, done that" with mandatory fertility control, and prison, and the problem has not gone away. Reduce poverty. Increase awareness. Empower social programs. Move people to healthier environments and provide support. Work with them and give them to knowledge, compassion, and confidence to be able to see for themselves that changes are both positive and readily available to them. If you want to force something, force education and support. Force treatment programs. Force universal healthcare. Force affordable housing. Force social responsibility for those who were born with an equal lack of control over their circumstances but certainly not with equal opportunities, privileges, or biology.

Protect children. Even when those children grow to be adult victims of society.

ally2011 · December 2014

@Rynleigh‌ - none of the children we have cared for were voluntarily relinquished. None of the children of other foster families I know were voluntarily relinquished. These women would not be in hiding because they would already be known by and involved with the foster and court system by the point we are talking about. I hear where you are coming from, I'm just not sure those ideas work in every case, as some of the other posters have shared examples.

Rynleigh · December 2014

I am not talking about the people who's children have already been removed or relinquished - I am talking about the people who have not entered the system yet. This is not a problem that has already been solved - new families enter this scenario all the time - and the more afraid of the consequences a brand new parent is, the more likely they are to resort to things like avoiding prenatal care, birthing at home, refusing to take their children to hospitals or doctors, and home schooling them to hide abuse. I was a victim of all of these things because my mother believed that the government and medical professionals and social workers were there specifically to oppress her freedoms and control her. I am a victim of a system that penalizes and instills fear rather than fixing the actual problem. Forced sterilization or birth control never would have become an option for my mother because she ostracized us from the eyes of the public because she grew up in a time where those kinds of threats to her personal liberty were real. She was "forced" into a cesarean with me, because my life was in danger, and it destroyed her trust. While I am unendingly grateful and imbued with love and respect for the doctor (and procedure) who saved my life, I am NOT grateful to the society that failed to educate and support and treat and empower my mother to understand that the surgery was a positive thing (in her years before becoming a mother and in the postpartum period where she needed that reassurance), and not a negative one - to lift her up to understand that it was a powerful and beautiful medical option, if needed, and not a personal failure. Coming to empathize with where my mother's terrible actions grew from is how my perspective on these issues has developed. Coming to see how positive solutions carried out in the wrong ways are among major causes behind the harm I myself experienced provided me with that ability to empathize and accept that the most effective solutions are not the most beneficial or good solutions.

ally2011 · December 2014

Rynleigh said:

I am not talking about the people who's children have already been removed or relinquished - I am talking about the people who have not entered the system yet. This is not a problem that has already been solved - new families enter this scenario all the time - and the more afraid of the consequences a brand new parent is, the more likely they are to resort to things like avoiding prenatal care, birthing at home, refusing to take their children to hospitals or doctors, and home schooling them to hide abuse. I was a victim of all of these things because my mother believed that the government and medical professionals and social workers were there specifically to oppress her freedoms and control her. I am a victim of a system that penalizes and instills fear rather than fixing the actual problem. Forced sterilization or birth control never would have become an option for my mother because she ostracized us from the eyes of the public because she grew up in a time where those kinds of threats to her personal liberty were real. She was "forced" into a cesarean with me, because my life was in danger, and it destroyed her trust. While I am unendingly grateful and imbued with love and respect for the doctor (and procedure) who saved my life, I am NOT grateful to the society that failed to educate and support and treat and empower my mother to understand that the surgery was a positive thing (in her years before becoming a mother and in the postpartum period where she needed that reassurance), and not a negative one - to lift her up to understand that it was a powerful and beautiful medical option, if needed, and not a personal failure. Coming to empathize with where my mother's terrible actions grew from is how my perspective on these issues has developed. Coming to see how positive solutions carried out in the wrong ways are among major causes behind the harm I myself experienced provided me with that ability to empathize and accept that the most effective solutions are not the most beneficial or good solutions.

That makes sense.....thank you for sharing your story. I am truly sorry for all that you have been through.

ally2011 · December 2014

Sterling13 said:

Sterling13 said:

Everything @expatmama‌ just said. The line is impossible to draw, and if ever there was a time for a slippery slope argument this is it. No babies for poor people?

Who said anything about poor people? Poor people can be great parents, rich people can be terrible ones. I am talking about child welfare and why it's not fair to a lot of people for people to keep making babies they can't or won't care for.
I was just saying this is the issue with the slippery slope. How do you define who "can't care" for their child? How does that line end? There have been some horrible examples in history where the poor have been marginalized because of well intentioned policy.

We already do decide who can't care for their child. There is just nothing to prevent them from making more.

ally2011 · December 2014

But you see that the decision to keep having babies you won't care for affects more than just you right? Society has to pay for that, people like me and @jenniferraborn‌ have to care for the kids, and let's not forget the people that bear the brunt if it - the actual kids. Our whole system says it is geared towards the best interest of the kids. One year in and I can already tell you that us absolutely false - birth parents "rights" come first. And that is wrong. The innocent children caught up in the mess should come first.

ally2011 · December 2014

And for everyone who thinks people should be able to have baby after baby that they won't care for, I hope you are signing up to foster.

ally2011 · December 2014

Sorry y'all. But seeing all of these broken children just wrecks me.

Rynleigh · December 2014

I agree with the conclusion (I am not a foster parent, just a caregiver), just not the method. The end goal is to ensure that people - male and female - stop bringing unwanted or injured or neglected children into the world to suffer. I simply don't believe that the proposal for forced fertility control is a practical, humane, or effective way to achieve that goal.

TarheelMama202 · December 2014

ally2011 said:

And for everyone who thinks people should be able to have baby after baby that they won't care for, I hope you are signing up to foster.

I don't think anyone is proposing that people should be able to have "baby after baby," I think most people just think that forced sterilization is an extremely inhumane way to go about "fixing" an issue that is actually a much larger societal one.

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Ohhhh, I've got another one! Mandatory Sterilization! Let's do this thing!

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