18, getting pregnant, advice?

SAsgirl89 · November 2014

Hi guys, im new to this forum and am TTC for the first time I'm 18 and have been with my bf for two years. We decided to start trying to have a baby recently, and I was just wondering how long we should be “trying” in my fertile window, and if im supposed to be using ovulation predictor kits? Im just not sure what to expect. Can anybody give me any insight? Thanks Also, I have had an abortion before so I'm hoping that this wont affect my chances?

GypsySoul1112 · November 2014

You should talk to your friend Gloria a few threads down, I'm sure you two would have LOTS to talk about.

SAsgirl89 · November 2014

How...read the comments above...?

Scatterbug · November 2014

SAsgirl89 member
10:58AM
I agree. I posted something recently about trying for my first, and if I should be using OPKs, how many times I should BBD during my fertile period. All I got was a "Go read the newbie post" Or "Go read 'Glorias' post, Im sure you two will have a lot in common'. Like wtf?? Are some women just bitter because they have been trying for so long and hating on everybody else..

-----quote fail----

Seriously?! You had 3 responses in this thread and decided to bad mouth on another.

Bad form.

SAsgirl89 · November 2014

DO you see the same responses everyday, maybe because you're on here too much? Seriously, if a post is generic and bores you, then don't answer it. At least LogLiveTheEvilQueen gave some advice. I've read the newbie post. So if I can't ask questions like those in my post, what am I supposed to be asking? Please enlighten me on what questions are acceptable here.

Scatterbug · November 2014

SAsgirl89 said:
DO you see the same responses everyday, maybe because you're on here too much? Seriously, if a post is generic and bores you, then don't answer it. At least LogLiveTheEvilQueen gave some advice. I've read the newbie post. So if I can't ask questions like those in my post, what am I supposed to be asking? Please enlighten me on what questions are acceptable here.

Sorry but I call bs on reading the newbie blog. Or did you skip over the flow chart titled
"I'm new here and have a super duper important question" (apologies if the title is off). Here it states google your question. There is also a 411 on charting that explains about opks.

This isn't google. If information isn't available (or easily available) online then these ladies can help through their knowledge and experience.

To be fair you haven't even given this place a chance before you became defensive and rude. Not the best way to make a first impression.

SAsgirl89 · November 2014

you're here everyday? Geez. No wonder

Scatterbug · November 2014

Geez?

Geez it's so nice of someone take there own time to support people that need it?

Including people who are ungrateful and incapable of using google.

I agree how nice.

traversity773 · November 2014

Ffs, please get off the internet, go to school become an adult, and don't have a baby at 18. unless you are self sufficient, have a savings account, insurance, a job and an idea of what you you want to do with your future, you are just setting yourself up for failure.

SAsgirl89 · November 2014

Wtf, "get off the internet?" you are all on the internet.

Not that I have to justify my AGE to anybody, but I've been working part time since I was 14, I graduated LAST YEAR from high school with a great academic record, I know exactly what I want to do in life, and where I want to go to college. I would rather have a baby now, before I get tied up in my career. Secondly, I have sufficient savings, a lot of inheritance and lots of savings- I rarely spent any of my money. Next, my boyfriend has a good-paying full-time job, and a house and we both live in it. Fourth, I pay my own health insurance thankyou very much, I pay for my own gas, my own bills, etc. No, we are not married, but I don't think that's even relevant. Marriage doesn't mean a thing when you've been living together for years. I don't know why some women think pregnancy is reserved only for them, when they are older. Ridiculous. Don't assume I will be an incompetent mother because I haven't lived a long as all of you. Like I said @Traversity773, I know exactly what kind of career I have in mind. So don't imply that I want a baby just for kicks.

emuhlieb · November 2014

No one implied that you wanted a baby just for kicks, just that you perhaps haven't thought everything through. The ladies on this board are here everyday because they support each other. It is a friendship of sorts that is apparent to anyone who has lurked for more than a second. As an 18 year old there are things that you may not have thought about such as how are you going to go to class with a baby? Who will watch your baby? Can you afford daycare while going to class? What about when the baby is sick and you have to write a paper? Or just homework in general? I'm not saying it can't be done, but why are you making something harder on yourself? School is hard. Raising a child is hard. Doing the both at the same time? Why purposefully do that to yourself?

nandaboob06 · November 2014

Guise, she's been working part time since she was 14. Totes ready to have a baby!

OP, if you want to go to college, do that before adding a baby to the mix. I have seen very few people able to do both. But since you know it all, do what you want.

SpartanChick88 · November 2014

I'm trying to figure out how to get my Master's with a 4 year old... logistics are not working out. Just putting that out there.

Does anyone else find it odd that we have had at least three 18 year olds show up in the last couple days? They've all they're mature and in love and totes ready for a baby. What the hell is going on? And note to the OP, parenting is hard... and expensive

ETA: coming in here and calling people bitter is a bad move. Just because no one squee'd and said yay! Good luck! doesn't mean anyone is bitter... it means we are more experienced at life and know a baby at 18 is a bad idea

jillianmae2ndstar · November 2014

It's great you pay for the things you want in life, the rest of us do to. In trying to be as respectful as possible, you do sound really naive, you sound defensive and resistive. Keep in mind, the women on this board have countless experiences to share and that we can learn from. You came to the board and asked for advice, looks like you just don't like the answer you got. If you're truley set on being a mom, then good luck but you owe it to yourself, and possibly your future child to take this experience into account and learn from it. Best of luck!

indogbeersiveonlyhadone · November 2014

Where do these people come from??? I'm now sorry I opened this... I knew better but for some reason couldn't help myself.

OP, do whatever you want to do. I honestly don't care. If you lurked around for awhile you would have known how this ridiculous question was going to go.

sarahdianeeleff · November 2014

To the OP:

silverandgray · November 2014

SAsgirl89 said:
Wtf, "get off the internet?" you are all on the internet.
Not that I have to justify my AGE to anybody, but I've been working part time since I was 14, I graduated LAST YEAR from high school with a great academic record, I know exactly what I want to do in life, and where I want to go to college. I would rather have a baby now, before I get tied up in my career.
SNIP

This makes no sense to me. Why on earth would you want to have a baby before or while you are in college?

1. It's hard enough already. I was a national merit scholar with an above-4.0 average in high school, and I had a rude awakening in my first semester. Classes are tougher, professors don't baby you, and overall expectations are higher for your level of responsibility. And you want to throw sleep deprivation and post-partum hormones into the mix?
2. It sounds trite, but you are young. You only get to be 18 and carefree once. Go out with your friends, party, be silly. Participate in campus life. Travel, if you can make it work. Make the kind of memories that you will love sharing with your future kids.

College is an opportunity not everyone can afford, so if you can do it don't rob yourself of the experience before it even starts.

icaughtfire · November 2014

Having a baby at 18 is an excellent idea, OP. They're super easy, cost nearly nothing and don't change your life at all. Having one BEFORE college is really smart because they truly enhance the college experience. Nothing makes writing a research paper or preparing for a final easier than a screaming newborn. Go ahead & get to trying for that kid. Might I suggest anal? That should really increase your chances.

pmcd886 · November 2014

icaughtfire said:

Having a baby at 18 is an excellent idea, OP. They're super easy, cost nearly nothing and don't change your life at all. Having one BEFORE college is really smart because they truly enhance the college experience. Nothing makes writing a research paper or preparing for a final easier than a screaming newborn. Go ahead & get to trying for that kid. Might I suggest anal? That should really increase your chances.

Dead/ Best response ever!

icaughtfire · November 2014

BeccaCope said:

I would suggest getting a puppy. Not nearly as hard as having a baby, but you get to see if you are up for the challenge of taking care of something else with your partner. Plus, it may satisfy the baby craving until you are truly ready...hopefully a few years down the road.

Because if you can handle a puppy, you'll be TOTES ready for a human being.

::eye roll::

MrsC0617 · November 2014

SAsgirl89 said:
At least LogLiveTheEvilQueen gave some advice.

PrimRoseMama · November 2014

Please don't have a baby right now.

Go to college, & enjoy it. Graduate & dig into your job. See if your BF is really the man you want to spend forever with.

I might be "old" (almost twice your age) but I've already been 18. You've never done anything like this. Please listen to the people that are trying to speak sense to you.

Yeah, you're probably a Muddy Troll...

MrsSept13 · November 2014

runningmommy519 said:

icaughtfire said:

BeccaCope said:

I would suggest getting a puppy. Not nearly as hard as having a baby, but you get to see if you are up for the challenge of taking care of something else with your partner. Plus, it may satisfy the baby craving until you are truly ready...hopefully a few years down the road.

Because if you can handle a puppy, you'll be TOTES ready for a human being.

::eye roll::

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I think the idea was see if you can take care of something smaller before you try to take care of something larger.

OP, have you seen 16 and Pregnant? Have you noticed how they never do anything they planned to after they have their baby? Have you noticed how they're so surprised at how hard life is when they're forced to grow up before they should?

thewickedfairy · November 2014

bluesmiley78 · November 2014

I have a friend who at 16 moved in with her boyfriend, they ended up getting married, she is 24 and had a baby. Now she is reevaluating EVERYTHING. Her hubby isn't what she thought he was. She is now wondering if he is the one she wants to be with.

I say this because life changes you. I am most definitely not the same person I was at 18 and could not be with the person I was at 18.

On the positive side...you do have a good savings, you do have your own insurance, and a job. All pluses. But know how much work a child is. How much time they take. How much of your free time will be gone. Is your boyfriend 150% sure this is what he wants?

On that note. Don't be rude. These ladies have been thru more life and the ups and downs of parenting and trying to become parents. If you really want advice stick around and read some posts, comment on some stuff and get your self off the pedestal you think you are on.

icaughtfire · November 2014

MrsSept13 said:

runningmommy519 said:

icaughtfire said:

BeccaCope said:

I would suggest getting a puppy. Not nearly as hard as having a baby, but you get to see if you are up for the challenge of taking care of something else with your partner. Plus, it may satisfy the baby craving until you are truly ready...hopefully a few years down the road.

Because if you can handle a puppy, you'll be TOTES ready for a human being.

::eye roll::

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I think the idea was see if you can take care of something smaller before you try to take care of something larger.

OP, have you seen 16 and Pregnant? Have you noticed how they never do anything they planned to after they have their baby? Have you noticed how they're so surprised at how hard life is when they're forced to grow up before they should?

Even if you're a master puppy caretaker and can take care of all the puppies in the world, it's not the same as a child. I let my dog out in the morning, throw some food & water in his bowl and leave him for hours while I go to work. He keeps himself content napping & playing with toys, all unsupervised. When I get home we go for a quick walk, have a little play time & he eats again. Then he mostly snoozes for the rest of the night because he's a lazy fucking dog.

My dog doesn't scream at all hours of the night, doesn't get sick and make me miss out on work, doesn't require constant supervision, doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars a month in daycare. If I cared for a kid the way I care for my dog, Child Protective Services would be at my door real quick.

MrsSept13 · November 2014

icaughtfire said:

MrsSept13 said:

runningmommy519 said:

icaughtfire said:

BeccaCope said:

I would suggest getting a puppy. Not nearly as hard as having a baby, but you get to see if you are up for the challenge of taking care of something else with your partner. Plus, it may satisfy the baby craving until you are truly ready...hopefully a few years down the road.

Because if you can handle a puppy, you'll be TOTES ready for a human being.

::eye roll::

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I think the idea was see if you can take care of something smaller before you try to take care of something larger.

OP, have you seen 16 and Pregnant? Have you noticed how they never do anything they planned to after they have their baby? Have you noticed how they're so surprised at how hard life is when they're forced to grow up before they should?

Even if you're a master puppy caretaker and can take care of all the puppies in the world, it's not the same as a child. I let my dog out in the morning, throw some food & water in his bowl and leave him for hours while I go to work. He keeps himself content napping & playing with toys, all unsupervised. When I get home we go for a quick walk, have a little play time & he eats again. Then he mostly snoozes for the rest of the night because he's a lazy fucking dog.

My dog doesn't scream at all hours of the night, doesn't get sick and make me miss out on work, doesn't require constant supervision, doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars a month in daycare. If I cared for a kid the way I care for my dog, Child Protective Services would be at my door real quick.

I didn't say it was the same and neither did @BeccaCope. The idea is hopefully if she can't take care of a puppy she'll realize that she definitely couldn't care for a baby. Or if she never has enough time for a puppy she definitely won't have time for a baby. If she's smart enough.

ETA: And I know firsthand having an animal has satiated my agony for wanting a child in the past. When I'm getting sad about it I go snuggle with my guinea. Maybe that could be the same for OP.

icaughtfire · November 2014

MrsSept13 said:

icaughtfire said:

MrsSept13 said:

runningmommy519 said:

icaughtfire said:

BeccaCope said:

SNIP

SNIP

SNIP

SNIP

Even if you're a master puppy caretaker and can take care of all the puppies in the world, it's not the same as a child. I let my dog out in the morning, throw some food & water in his bowl and leave him for hours while I go to work. He keeps himself content napping & playing with toys, all unsupervised. When I get home we go for a quick walk, have a little play time & he eats again. Then he mostly snoozes for the rest of the night because he's a lazy fucking dog.

My dog doesn't scream at all hours of the night, doesn't get sick and make me miss out on work, doesn't require constant supervision, doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars a month in daycare. If I cared for a kid the way I care for my dog, Child Protective Services would be at my door real quick.

I didn't say it was the same and neither did @BeccaCope. The idea is hopefully if she can't take care of a puppy she'll realize that she definitely couldn't care for a baby. Or if she never has enough time for a puppy she definitely won't have time for a baby. If she's smart enough.

OR..she'll do just fine at the puppy care & think she's ready for a kid because puppies are so easy so how hard can a kid be? Not to mention, say she gets said puppy & realizes that puppies are also work. So she does what? Gets rid of the puppy? You should also be ready for the responsibility of pet ownership before getting a pet. That's why the "see how you do with a puppy first" is shitty advice & will always get a major eye roll from me.

MrsSept13 · November 2014

icaughtfire said:

MrsSept13 said:

icaughtfire said:

MrsSept13 said:

runningmommy519 said:

icaughtfire said:

BeccaCope said:

SNIP

SNIP

SNIP

SNIP

Even if you're a master puppy caretaker and can take care of all the puppies in the world, it's not the same as a child. I let my dog out in the morning, throw some food & water in his bowl and leave him for hours while I go to work. He keeps himself content napping & playing with toys, all unsupervised. When I get home we go for a quick walk, have a little play time & he eats again. Then he mostly snoozes for the rest of the night because he's a lazy fucking dog.

My dog doesn't scream at all hours of the night, doesn't get sick and make me miss out on work, doesn't require constant supervision, doesn't cost me hundreds of dollars a month in daycare. If I cared for a kid the way I care for my dog, Child Protective Services would be at my door real quick.

I didn't say it was the same and neither did @BeccaCope. The idea is hopefully if she can't take care of a puppy she'll realize that she definitely couldn't care for a baby. Or if she never has enough time for a puppy she definitely won't have time for a baby. If she's smart enough.

OR..she'll do just fine at the puppy care & think she's ready for a kid because puppies are so easy so how hard can a kid be? Not to mention, say she gets said puppy & realizes that puppies are also work. So she does what? Gets rid of the puppy? You should also be ready for the responsibility of pet ownership before getting a pet. That's why the "see how you do with a puppy first" is shitty advice & will always get a major eye roll from me.

That definitely makes sense. It wasn't a foolproof plan, just an idea. You're smart when you said that she could get rid of the puppy if she can't care for it. I still think people like OP could benefit from an animal to help stave off the wanting for a child right away. I know it's definitely helped me in the past. All good points, though!

MrsSept13 · November 2014

@cjchio, you misunderstand completely. I was saying she was right that OP could give away the dog and that would be bad. She made a good point and proved me wrong on that account. I must have worded it funny, I'm sorry you thought that's what I said.

Remylove1011 · November 2014

I would take a step back and reevaluate. It's not that I think you wouldn't be a good mother, it's that doing it this way will be very hard.

At 18, I was totally in love with my boyfriend who I'd known sine I was little. We had this huge plans to be together forever. I also had in mind exactly what I wanted to do with my life. Fast forward and that relationship didn't even make it through our first year of college and I'm not doing what I had always said I wanted to do. Turns out, I liked other things more and didn't realize it until I was actually doing it.

I know you think you've got it all figured out, but it never hurts to take a step back and really think about this decision.

MrsSept13 · November 2014

cjchio said:

@cjchio, you misunderstand completely. I was saying she was right that OP could give away the dog and that would be bad. She made a good point and proved me wrong on that account. I must have worded it funny, I'm sorry you thought that's what I said.
That's not how I read your reply. I'm glad that out if all of the terrible advice you can at least admit that one. You sticking to your guns that a puppy will fix everything is still shitty.

No, after @icaughtfire made her points, I agree that using a puppy to fix everything is not a good idea. The only thing I think might be good for anyone in OP's position is having an animal to satiate the want to have a child, but not to get ready for a child.

Having a different opinion does not mean I'm commenting on things I don't understand, but I gladly will accept other ideas and opinions and if I think they are intelligent and thought through then I will adapt my way of thinking. Just telling me to stop does not change anything.

mosdub · November 2014

A story and advice for any 18 year olds contemplating ttc (and in case this isn't MUD):

When I was 18 I fell in love with my boyfriend. We dated for a couple of years and then ended up moving in together for college. When I turned 21 I was in a college town and still with my boyfriend. We stayed up late working on school work - I practically lived at the school library. There were times both of us were so wrapped up in our studies that we barely saw each other (imagine having an infant/child during those times - not possible to do it the way we did it).

On the flip side we partied - oh my, how we partied. We had tons of friends over and would walk downtown and have ridiculous fun and made great memories. We drove to concerts on a moment's notice just because we could. We loitered at the mall and went to movies on a moment's notice just because we could. We slept in on weekends and relished in being sloppy college kids.

A couple years later, I married my boyfriend. We made more memories. We travelled around the country and around the world. We came back and bought a house, and got our dream jobs. For the first time we were both being paid very well and had solid benefits. We bought shit we always dreamed of having but would never have been able to afford. We take late-night walks around our town whenever we feel like it and while we have jobs that require us to be fairly responsible, we definitely have continued having some fun nights with friends.

Now, almost 10 years after our very first date, we are ready to try for a child -- I am SO happy we had those 10 years to be independent and free to do as we pleased. If I had a baby when I was 18 I'm sure I would have loved it, but my entire life would be different. I simply can NOT fathom doing the schooling I did with an infant/child. I would have probably given up going to school for my dream job and ended up doing something easier and closer to home.

There's nothing "wrong" with having a baby so young - sometimes it happens on accident and people just have to deal. Just realize that you will be sacrificing a potential DECADE of being free of having any dependents. You and bf could move to France "just cuz". Really contemplate this freedom you have right now before giving it up!

Like @cjchio said, we were lucky and grew together instead of growing apart. I don't know how having a baby when we were 18 would have changed the way our relationship grew. Not saying it would have ruined it, but you never know. Looking at my friends who were together at 18 I don't think a single set of them stayed together. I'm not trying to say you and your bf's relationship won't last because it can, but I do think it is more wise to give yourselves time together before adding a baby into the picture.

ALSO - give these ladies a chance. They are brilliant and very experienced. Being on this board a lot does not make us pathetic or bitter and it was incredibly mean of you to suggest that.

MrsSept13 · November 2014

cjchio said:

cjchio said:

@cjchio, you misunderstand completely. I was saying she was right that OP could give away the dog and that would be bad. She made a good point and proved me wrong on that account. I must have worded it funny, I'm sorry you thought that's what I said.
That's not how I read your reply. I'm glad that out if all of the terrible advice you can at least admit that one. You sticking to your guns that a puppy will fix everything is still shitty.

No, after @icaughtfire made her points, I agree that using a puppy to fix everything is not a good idea. The only thing I think might be good for anyone in OP's position is having an animal to satiate the want to have a child, but not to get ready for a child. Having a different opinion does not mean I'm commenting on things I don't understand, but I gladly will accept other ideas and opinions and if I think they are intelligent and thought through then I will adapt my way of thinking. Just telling me to stop does not change anything.
I thought you said you still thought it was a good idea. Gotcha. Maybe I'm just touchy and sorry if I am but that rubs me the wrong way too. Having issues ttc? Get a dog. Totes the same.

I'm sorry. That's super shitty of people to say that to people having trouble TTC. I'm sorry if anyone has said that to you.

mammamiasopapilla · November 2014

Just in case this is a legitimate post... Please OP take a step back and re-read what you are saying and thinking and realize how completely immature it is. If your 35 year old self could read what you are saying, what would you think? you have all the time in the world, why make it harder for yourself?? What's wrong with waiting even 4 more years and seeing where you're at in life then? If you and your bf really love each other you'll still be together and can revisit TTC at that point. Just my thoughts!

bossmom11 · November 2014

I graduated college in 3.5 years with a 3.4 cum laude. Dated my BF for 3 years and got married. We had it all and got pregnant 2 years later. We both had solid jobs, a house, little savings, and thought at 23 we knew everything. We are now 25 and have a 14 month old. I knew nothing then. I read all the articles, knew the way I was going to parent. Thought I was going to be able to finish my masters and keep working. None of what I thought is my reality now. I left my masters program after a semester because I couldn't juggle it all. I decided to SAH my DD's first year while working minimally part time to help financially but only worked 1.5 years in an office before having my daughter. It is near impossible for me to get a good job that pays for day care and allows me to still make money. All employers want to know why I took the time off and only have 1.5 years of experience. Now they can't not hire you because you decided to get KU but I guarantee other people will have more work experience than you and you will get passed over for the type of job you need to start a career.

I think what most of us didn't take into account is that you say you have a lot inheritance an a lot of savings. Now if you are a wealthy trust fund kid, good for you! If your Daddy owns the company you have been working at since 14 and will just hire you after you are done having kids, good for you! If you and your BF have a house at 18 (or whatever age he is) and a full time good paying job, good for you. And if your life turns out exactly how you planned it, good for you. Please know you are the exception not the rule.

And like you pointed out pregnancy is supposed to be for everyone and that is why ppl like you can ttgp without understanding how much LOs change your life forever and once you have that bundle of joy there is no escape button you can press. You are on the wonderful roller coaster of parenthood forever.

Just my two cents @SAsgirl89.

EmeJay · November 2014

I remember at 18 how I thought I was so financially independant. This was before things like having a retirement plan, savings, mortgage, taxes, responsabilities. And this is without children.

Money then vs money now. There's a huge difference between being able to pay fort your gas ans being able to psy medical bills and special formula.

MissesFroom · November 2014

I would just like to say you are using poor etiquette. You do not know these people and you are throwing shit and asking for help all over the place. If you want some advice, I would say wait a bit longer. @LongLiveTheEvilQueen gave you some great things to consider. Yes, most of us around here have been planning for babies long before ttc. We are not bitter, we are cautious and responsible. Other women on here, are already mothers and have great advice. The fact that you chose to not read the newbie blog before posting a comment tells me you are impulsive and someone who should really THINK before deciding to get pregnant. Best of luck to you and your future.

Edit: sleepy hands make writing hard.

nandaboob06 · November 2014

MrsSept13 said:

cjchio said:

MrsSept13 said:
@cjchio, you misunderstand completely. I was saying she was right that OP could give away the dog and that would be bad. She made a good point and proved me wrong on that account. I must have worded it funny, I'm sorry you thought that's what I said.
That's not how I read your reply. I'm glad that out if all of the terrible advice you can at least admit that one.

You sticking to your guns that a puppy will fix everything is still shitty.

No, after @icaughtfire made her points, I agree that using a puppy to fix everything is not a good idea. The only thing I think might be good for anyone in OP's position is having an animal to satiate the want to have a child, but not to get ready for a child.

Having a different opinion does not mean I'm commenting on things I don't understand, but I gladly will accept other ideas and opinions and if I think they are intelligent and thought through then I will adapt my way of thinking. Just telling me to stop does not change anything.

------------
Yes get a puppy to satisfy the want for a baby. That will work until she finally has a baby and then is like "erhmehagawd, i cant handle both a puppy AND a baby. C ya laterz pooch".

If I'm remembering you correctly, you are full of awesome advice./ sarcasm

GypsySoul1112 · November 2014

OP, I am curious what said boyfriend thinks about your plans for your future. Because I know very few 18 year old boys who are anxious to start a family.

You really need to take a step back and reevaluate your situation. Methinks you've already made up your mind, but in all seriousness, you have NO IDEA what you are in for if you act on your impulses.

ETA: extra letters

janda426 · November 2014

This is interesting to me. Sometimes I search the hashtag #teenttc on Instagram and the same argument from these kids is ALWAYS "they have inheritance"... Must be the go-to lie they come up with to get people off their back about money. I just found it funny how that same excuse rang true here. I call bullshit. Or MUD.

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