things are getting rocky...

nlscroggins · October 2014

so, as a recap, we were selected by a sweet EM that lives about 5 hours from us. we have traveled to see her several times, and all visits have been great. she is due in january, which makes her just over 26 weeks pregnant.

here's where things get rocky... she has yet to go to a doctor. when she came to our adoption facliltator, she was taken to a free pregnancy testing clinic where the pregnancy was confirmed and an ultrasound was performed. we were told that because of her not having insurance, she would go to the doctor when her medicaid was finalized- sounded good to us. well, she had an appt last thursday with her OBGYN (our facilitator accompanied her since we were not able to make the trip) and she walked out of the appointment, reportedly furious with the wait time and rescheduled for this past Monday. now, we are completely unable to reach her, and have no idea if she made the appointment or not. she isn't at her mom's house, where she is supposedly staying, and they aren't returning messages. our lawyer/facilitator has tried on several attempts to reach her on her cell phone (which we provided for her- it's just a monthly pay as you go phone from walmart) and nothing. we have called and texted her and have gotten nothing. we haven't spoken to her since last friday, and we are getting a little freaked out!

so... i guess my question is this. what can we do? anyone have any similar experience and advice? i feel like we have a right to know if the baby is safe and healthy, but do we? this has all happened in the past week and a half or so, so we haven't really gotten down to brass tacks with paperwork (which is extra challenging since we live so far away). so there isn't really anything other than a verbal commitment between us and her. there isn't really anything legal for us or her to "back out" of, you know? we also have reason to believe that the she is involved with drugs, which while not at all ideal, we have expressed that we are willing to work with. we think that may be why she is distancing herself from us. i dont know, of course i fear the worst here, and i just don't know where to turn. i know we are driving our lawyer crazy, but she isn't able to contact her either, so we are all kind of stuck. what would you do? would you cut your losses and move on? or try like hell to work this out? needless to say, this has all happened so fast and i have never felt this range of emotions so quickly- from extreme jubilation to fearful panic all in a week's time. trying to remain positive and hopeful, but things are kind of crazy... we don't even know if baby boy is healthy, and i feel like that's a huge piece of the puzzle. any advice?

sgb721 · October 2014

Maybe she just needs time to sort some personal stuff out in her life? I guess I would just give her some space- maybe send her a message asking if she's okay and if you guys can support her in anyway. I wouldn't ask to much about the baby, because she's a person, not an incubator.

I wouldn't give up hope yet, I don't think one should ever give up hope on a child. It may be wise to guard your heart but don't give up.

nlscroggins · October 2014

@sgb721- we have texted and left messages with her asking how she's feeling, being careful to not push for baby info. i read early on in the process that these women are mothers, not baby factories, and that really stuck with me. she's turned into a friend of ours, so that makes this feel even worse that she would feel like she couldnt talk to us, you know? hopefully she is just needing space, and we can respect that. i'm just a ball of nerves. maybe we are being kind of selfish.

sgb721 · October 2014

No you're not being selfish, your hurt and scared and worried. Those are all very normal, very healthy feelings. If you didn't have them- that would be scary!

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

I'm so very sorry you're going through this- I can't imagine how you must feel. I'm going to go ahead and apologize for being brutally honest, but...

You don't have rights to the baby. He is hers alone now, which I know isn't fair when you put your life on hold for her and take care of her in hopes of her choosing you to be his parents once again when she has him. You do; however, have a right to feel that way.

She may be freaking out over the pending placement. Being an expectant mom is... There are no words. "Hard" is laughable. At this point ppl prob ask her when she's due, gender, if she's started the nursery, what she'll name him, if he's her first, etc. She constantly carries him inside, probably kicking up a storm now so there's no break from the bond and knowledge that she's getting closer and closer to losing him. She prob avoided going to the doctor to avoid the reality of it but her body is no longer allowing that. She's wrong for choosing you and then doing this, wrong for worrying you, just wrong. But maybe that's why? I seriously hope you hear something very soon and that it truly is just a freak-out. Maybe the facilitator could talk to her about a way to get the message to you that she's ok but needs space if this happens again. Also, I'd recommend seeing if the facilitator will coordinate counseling for her.

nlscroggins · October 2014

@CarolinaGirl2014 thank you for your honesty! we do realize we have no rights to the baby, and that's why i feel so torn here. i think we have just allowed ourselves to get attached really quickly, and that's dangerous in these situations. more than anything, i just want to know that baby is healthy and that she is healthy and doing ok as well. i will never even pretend to know what she must be feeling right now. this baby is number 6 for her. i know she knows what is coming in the next few months, and i cannot fathom how hard it will be for her. i think we are just all scared. i like the idea of possibly looking into some counseling- thank you for the advice!

maryoosa · October 2014

I'm sorry that you are going through this, distance is hard in relationships with expectant mothers- and there isn't anyway that we, PAP's can understand what they are going through. At this point- and until the moment she signs papers terminating her parental rights, this is her baby. You have no right to know anything about her or her child. You want to of course, because you have an emotional investment in this, but you don't have a right to the information. You should talk to your faciliator, or your agency, or your lawyer and express that you are concerned. But you shouldn't probably be reaching out directly to her if she isn't responding to you anymore.

maryoosa · October 2014

@bookworm92 I don't know that it's a document that expectant mothers sign-but on the adoptive side,at least with my agency it's an agreement that adoptive parents sign with the agency indicating our acceptance of a potential placement, disclosure of risks (legal risk, expectant mom changing mind, medical, drug or alcohol risks if they exist), indicates the willingness of adoptive families to pay for legal fees, medical fees for the expectant parent and expectant parent expenses. Indemnifies the agency or lawyer of risk and lays out how much money is at risk for adoptive families in the eyes of the agency/lawyer (like for my agency, if our son's mom had changed her mind, we would have lost all expenses paid to her and a portion of our fees paid for administrative, matching, and legal fees based on when the match had failed).

maryoosa · October 2014

Absolutely @bookwork92. I think the only things my son's mom signed before birth was consent to release medical records to us and to our agency. Nothing else was signed by her until she did her TPR paperwork, though her independent lawyer did walk her through all the documents she would need to sign before her due date so that she could make changes in language (especially to the standard post adoption agreement and to the surrender paperwork) that would make things right for her.

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

maryoosa said:
Absolutely @bookwork92. I think the only things my son's mom signed before birth was consent to release medical records to us and to our agency. Nothing else was signed by her until she did her TPR paperwork, though her independent lawyer did walk her through all the documents she would need to sign before her due date so that she could make changes in language (especially to the standard post adoption agreement and to the surrender paperwork) that would make things right for her.

I didn't realize that could be done. The paperwork was so... Harsh. It had a definite tone of "I'm so very done with you always and forever" and I hated agreeing to the wording of it under oath. It felt so very wrong.

Edited because spelling is hard.

Sigh202 · October 2014

Hope you got some good news.

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

@Pinkie78‌ I agree
@bookworm92‌ you could def ask your agency. I wouldn't linger on it. I just imagined A with her parents and rushed through it as a necessary evil.
@nlscroggins‌ keep us updated!

nlscroggins · October 2014

oh my goodness guys, thank yall for the input and honest opinions. the more i'm on this board, the more i open my mind to see things from all aspects of adoption! i have SO much to learn.

just an update: we have heard back from her, and things are better. turns out, she has a new boyfriend and he didn't really know about any of this, so she was laying low. luckily, he is super supportive of her and her decision, and hopefully he will be someone she can lean on when things get tough. but here's the real kicker: our facilitator/attorney actually had the balls to tell her that we were changing our minds on the whole thing. REALLY?! we had never, EVER said that to her. sure we were freaking out, but we never told her we were giving up... she was using that as a scare tactic i think, and that is bullying and just wrong. so the 1st phone call we got from EM was her in panic and on the verge of tears thinking we were ditching her and backing out (even though there isn't anything legally binding yet to back out of). she has begged us to seek another lawyer, saying that the one we have now makes her uncomfortable and we are all (as a group) getting pretty worried since she isn't getting anything down in writing yet (she sure enough is charging though!). it would be really easy to say sayonara to this lawyer since, well, since she has done nothing at all (in a legal sense) but charge us for every text, phone call, email, and meeting. gotta love some drama, right? so as of right now, we are just a couple, picked by an expectant mom, waiting on our lawyer to tell us what to do next. EM says she knows she wants to place the baby with us, but for now all we can do is wait and see what happens. we completely respect any decisions she is making and if it doesn't work out, then it was never meant to work out and we will keep going. on a more positive note, EM has an OB appt tomorrow and has asked us to go with her, so hopefully that can work out and we can visit with her and try to get a plan together for moving forward.

thank you all so much for putting up with this ranty, weird thread. i still welcome any and all advice.

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

This is wonderful news! So have you decided for sure to find a new lawyer, then? I think it's a great thing that she felt comfortable telling you her feelings and that she seems committed, just distracted and emotionally exhausted.

lorifromwi · October 2014

I'm glad your EM is back in communication with you and that you seem to have an open line of communication with her. How frustrating that the one person who is the go-between, your lawyer, seems to be causing the issues!! Hopefully, this will allow you and the EM to have more direct communications if you're not getting results from the lawyer!

Hopefully you can attend the OB appointment, that would be so exciting!!

maryoosa · October 2014

I'm glad she is communicating again. Find a new lawyer, and get her her own legal representation separate from yours. Even if that's not required in your state- it's worth it for the ethical piece of mind.

CeCe8579 · October 2014

I'm so glad you spoke with her!

nlscroggins · October 2014

we are definitely looking for other representation. we actually had to call our lawyer tonight about something and she admitted she hadn't been as readily available to us because she hadn't received her payment (what?!?! we are totally paid up and have never even received an invoice from her) and that she had just been so busy with 3 new expectant moms as well as being in court all week fighting a contested adoption (bright red flag). wish us luck.

eta: we even tried to schedule a meeting with our lawyer for this week to pay a little of what we owed her from before she was even our lawyer, and she couldn't be bothered to answer our calls or texts. keep in mind we live 5-6 hours away. crazy crazy stuff.

CeCe8579 · October 2014

I hope you find a better lawyer! She sounds like horrible :-(

theholmanherd · October 2014

I'm glad you got back in touch with EM. Definitely find a new lawyer. And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep ANY AND ALL info or correspondence between you and the lawyer, and EM and the lawyer. In the event you need to contest a bill or have other issues, you'll need all the documentation you can get. That was the number one thing I learned from my law classes in college: document, document, document. Going forward, get everything she says in writing or recorded over the phone. Most phones are able to record during a call pretty easily (mine can and I have a $30 phone). Best of luck!

ETA: also gather carbon copies of checks or print outs from your bank with the payments on it. Any future payments should be done via cashier's check, as you get a receipt with the payee's name on it. Deliver the checks via courier and require a signature. It just sounds like you're going to have a battle with her (she's a lawyer; she will know what she's doing) and I would rather you be safe than sorry.

nlscroggins · October 2014

@theholmanherd- that is such good advice! thank you. i especially like the idea of using a courier. honestly, whenever we ask (beg) our lawyer to please get things down on paper, she really dances around the issue. we are having more trouble with her than we could have ever imagined. she has really screwed us by promising the EM things well above what we can provide before anything was EVER agreed to. and honestly, we haven't heard back from her on our request to please meet with us so we could get some documents from her and give her a check. i know she's a legit lawyer, but if i didn't know that and hadn't heard so many success stories from couples she has helped, i would think she's a total scammer. nicest lady in the whole world, just the most unprofessional business person i have ever dealt with.

theholmanherd · October 2014

nlscroggins said:

@theholmanherd- that is such good advice! thank you. i especially like the idea of using a courier. honestly, whenever we ask (beg) our lawyer to please get things down on paper, she really dances around the issue. we are having more trouble with her than we could have ever imagined. she has really screwed us by promising the EM things well above what we can provide before anything was EVER agreed to. and honestly, we haven't heard back from her on our request to please meet with us so we could get some documents from her and give her a check. i know she's a legit lawyer, but if i didn't know that and hadn't heard so many success stories from couples she has helped, i would think she's a total scammer. nicest lady in the whole world, just the most unprofessional business person i have ever dealt with.

Definitely go with your gut. She sounds terrible, even despite her success stories. Even a broken clock is right a couple times a day, so I would take those stories with a grain of salt.

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

theholmanherd said:
I'm glad you got back in touch with EM. Definitely find a new lawyer. And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep ANY AND ALL info or correspondence between you and the lawyer, and EM and the lawyer. In the event you need to contest a bill or have other issues, you'll need all the documentation you can get. That was the number one thing I learned from my law classes in college: document, document, document. Going forward, get everything she says in writing or recorded over the phone. Most phones are able to record during a call pretty easily (mine can and I have a $30 phone). Best of luck!

ETA: also gather carbon copies of checks or print outs from your bank with the payments on it. Any future payments should be done via cashier's check, as you get a receipt with the payee's name on it. Deliver the checks via courier and require a signature. It just sounds like you're going to have a battle with her (she's a lawyer; she will know what she's doing) and I would rather you be safe than sorry.

I find this deceptive, assumptive on the side of "all birth mothers are out for your money" and overall not conducive to a good relationship. I get where you're coming from and agree all money and money-related issues should go through a documented third party. But to record a conversation without her knowledge? I find that unsettling. If I found out PAP's were doing that before placement, I'd end the match immediately and look for a new family because of the type of relationship and respect for myself I desired. How can she trust you to raise her child if you can't trust her to want to best for her child? I hope you are forthcoming on this topic so an expectant mom can make her decision in good knowledge.

nlscroggins · October 2014

@CarolinaGirl2014- i see what you're saying. however, we have had NO problems whatsoever with EM- in fact she rocks completely, and i wouldn't dream of recording her or anything like that. I think what @theholmanherd was advising me to do was do all of these things to our lawyer instead. lawyer is the one screwing everything up between us. we have nothing but respect and love for EM, and we are all open and honest with her. she even can't stand the lawyer (which has proved to be a good bonding experience for us, ha). i think the best thing we can all do going forward is to dump lawyer and move on to better, more professional representation to help us all in the long run!

theholmanherd · October 2014

nlscroggins said:

@CarolinaGirl2014- i see what you're saying. however, we have had NO problems whatsoever with EM- in fact she rocks completely, and i wouldn't dream of recording her or anything like that. I think what @theholmanherd was advising me to do was do all of these things to our lawyer instead. lawyer is the one screwing everything up between us. we have nothing but respect and love for EM, and we are all open and honest with her. she even can't stand the lawyer (which has proved to be a good bonding experience for us, ha). i think the best thing we can all do going forward is to dump lawyer and move on to better, more professional representation to help us all in the long run!

Yes, this. I was referring to the lawyer. It was probably confusing because the lawyer is a 'she' also. I think EM and OP both need to record their conversations with the lawyer, because she's either really unprofessional, underqualified/unsuccessful, or shady as hell.

CarolinaGirl2014 · October 2014

theholmanherd said:

nlscroggins said:

@CarolinaGirl2014- i see what you're saying. however, we have had NO problems whatsoever with EM- in fact she rocks completely, and i wouldn't dream of recording her or anything like that. I think what @theholmanherd was advising me to do was do all of these things to our lawyer instead. lawyer is the one screwing everything up between us. we have nothing but respect and love for EM, and we are all open and honest with her. she even can't stand the lawyer (which has proved to be a good bonding experience for us, ha). i think the best thing we can all do going forward is to dump lawyer and move on to better, more professional representation to help us all in the long run!

Yes, this. I was referring to the lawyer. It was probably confusing because the lawyer is a 'she' also. I think EM and OP both need to record their conversations with the lawyer, because she's either really unprofessional, underqualified/unsuccessful, or shady as hell.

Oh, ok well then I apologize!

@nlscroggins- I knew you were having issues with the lawyer, not Emom and didn't think you'd do something like that, so I hope you don't think my response was directed at you.

@theholmanherd good to know! I thought you meant that she should record convos secretly between her and EMom (which is the kind of thing I've actually heard of happening) and that really rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like I have to make my point of view on these things very well known to make emoms more personable than some weird entity to be feared or distrusted. I hope that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

nlscroggins · October 2014

@carolinagirl2014- no worries! you rock!

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