Behavior in groups

brachysira · October 2014

I have stayed AH since M was born and we have always done some sort of class--consistently library babytime as well as swimming, a baby parenting group, and music. She always did better than most of the kids--more paying attention and doing more participation. We took a hiatus because I was ill from pregnancy and now she is the worst.

In her music class, she is one of the oldest, but she throws constant tantrums, runs out the baby gate any time it opens, and gets into all the stuff in the room that is off limits (like pens for registration). Last class she also enjoyed standing behind me and pulling my hair while shrieking wildly, making it difficult for anyone to hear the music. Oh, and she hoards the props (like scarves or egg shakers) and even takes them from other kids. This is not typical among the other students. The younger kids mostly just chill and seem to enjoy the music. Some dance, and most participate with the props a bit. The kids that are slightly older are angels and sit still, answer the teacher's questions, participate in the songs, and do what is expected with the props. M participates about 5% of the time and is otherwise causing trouble--screaming, throwing a fit, hoarding props, or escaping. She draws others into her bad behavior and always gets in on any misbehavior of others.

DH and I also take her to an evening nature class. She can't do that at all. The kids there are mostly about a year older, but some are her age. There is a short song, a 30 second conversation about the topic of the day (e.g. today we are learning about seeds. Here are some seeds. Let's look for seeds outside."), a toddler craft (stick paper leaves to a piece of felt), and a "hike" (which is walking outside for a bit). She will not sit still during the song and intro at all, but DH manually restrains her, since she needs to be supervised to run around the nature center. She will try the craft, but runs away the second she is done (before anyone else) or it devolves into something bad (like smearing paint all over). The hike is her running towards danger (like the pond or parking lot), running towards fun (like a pit of sand, down a huge hill, or to splash in puddles), or just running wild. No one has ever had a tantrum in the class but we have at least one huge one/week. The kids her age need more reminding (walk with mom please, stay on the sidewalk please) but do what they are asked and generally participate. M does drive some misbehavior--she can get the whole class pounding on the table or can get a few kids to try running down the hill...

At home, she is generally fine, but things are very predictable and we just don't say no that much because we keep everything we know to cause a tantrum (cookies, cell phone, matches) hidden. Perhaps we have limited her home world too much such that she hasn't had enough opportunities to deal with frustration. I know she understands requests--if we are playing together, she follows complicated directions--but she ignores any requests that do not suit her.

I know this is a lot of text, but here are my questions. First, we are sort of ruining the classes she is in...stay or quit? If we quit, how do we give her practice in these situations? Or should we just give it a try next year?

Second, I wonder if perhaps she should be evaluated. She is just so poorly behaved compared to the kids her age. And she just sounds very different than the kids on the January board (DD was a preemie so was born in Jan but was supposed to be born in Feb). The Jan babies are always saying things like "mommy, read another book." DD says a few phrases, but not many, although she probably says 500 words and knows her letters, numbers, and shapes. Kids on the Jan board are "getting into apps" but DD independently scrolls through my phone, finds her apps, can access the parent areas in many apps, and uses the apps on her own--and has been doing this for about 6 months. I'm not sure if this is just a wild phase or if she has ADD or something...

wineandcake · October 2014

I don't think my toddler would sit through anything. He wants to explore and play, I believe that is quite normal for his age. He has nowhere near 500 words, maybe 20-30, everyone we see is always impressed with his words. The closest thing to a sentence he says is 'me, yes please' which is his way of saying he wants something.

I think you're expecting a lot of her. Toddler tantrums are 100% normal and I would never jump to a diagnosis of ADD because she doesn't like to sit still and can't work all apps on her own. My DS just likes pushing buttons on things, running, and screaming at things, I would never consider add at this age because of those things.

wineandcake · October 2014

Also, knowing letters and numbers and shapes is advanced for a baby this age. My baby knows 4 animal sounds, knows which is a train/truck/airplane, and knows which cat is orange/brown.... He refers to oranges as apples and flips if you try to give him an actual apple if he asks. He's still a baby, I want him to have fun and explore while I ensure he is safe and teach him manners and boundaries. If he saw a lake or pond, he would run there as fast as possible, he knows not to go into the water, but he would definitely run there and point.

I vote don't worry. Let her be a baby!

mishka29 · October 2014

Maybe try a gym class or something that let's her get more energy out. We did this with dd and during the 5 mins of songs she's the kid running around the room not listening.

ericalee27 · October 2014

Sagen said:

FIrst off my son has no where in near the realm of 500 words, and I would shit my pants if he said "mommy read me another book"

OMG, so this.

)

luxannie said:

I think you just need to calm yourself down. Your kid is who she is - energetic, curious, high-energy. You'll be happier trying to work within the parameters of her personality rather than stressing while trying to shove her into compliance with yours.

And this as well. I think you'll both end up being happier. My boys are high energy. We just roll with it.

brachysira · October 2014

Thanks. Yes, she is a high energy kid. I want to do gymnastics, but it is insanely pricey and I just can't justify paying $1/minute or something if she just runs around and screams there too. I am not a huge comparer, but I have just been surprised that she is the worst kid at every single thing we do by a large margin lately. And the thing with DD is not that she just runs for the pond--she goes under the chains that surround the pond and tries to get in... And when we say, no, that is dangerous, she ignores us. And when we pick her up, she says, no,no,no,no,no or just screams and has a fit. And when we set her down and try to distract her in another area, she runs for the pond again and again, screaming when we stop her. Or when we have to walk 50 feet from the car to music class--she dislodges the pumpkin in front of the class door. In the second it takes me to bend down and put it where it was, she has raced up the stairs to some second floor apartments--hard stairs and she's not holding on at all. I didn't even know she could do that. At the park, say she is playing with some chimes--hitting them with her hands. If I innocuously take the thing you are supposed to hit them with and show her how to make noise, she will scream, "nononononono." She does not want to do it that way. This is how it is every single second. Bad judgement, top speed, no listening, resistance to suggestion. I feel like I am saving her life by imposing my will using brute strength on an hourly basis or so.

Yes, I was a little bit proud that at her preemie developmental assessment at 14 months the psychologist told me she was "bratty" and that no child had ever acted that way. I LIKE that she has a lot of energy and her own opinions. But now that it keeps ruining events I feel like maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Oh, also, it's not that I am worried about her development with the letters and apps...it's more like I feel like this is out of sync with her emotional/social development. She can concentrate for hours on the phone or listen to 15 books in a row--but try to take that phone to show her how to get to the next level, and it's a tantrum...suggest a book she didn't choose...nononono. It's like it has to be 100% preferred activities. She doesn't throw tantrums because I gave her a blue cup and she wanted a red one or because I don't understand her. Only because I have insisted she not try to drown, etc.

wineandcake · October 2014

I can't believe a professional would say she's bratty and that no child has acted like that before. That's just rude and unprofessional IMO. I would not be impressed with that comment. She's a toddler!! Toddlers have energy and little attitudes, this person has clearly never seen my high energy, overly dramatic, wild child.

djm31012 · October 2014

I am on team stop comparing and let her be a toddler. DS's daycare every day at pick up says " We had a great day..he is ACTIVE!" Every day. We do the little gym and granted he is the youngest in the class but he sits for the circle activities for about 3 minutes and then just runs and explores. The teacher says all the time, leave him, let him play and explore. I think its cute actually. I agree that getting her into more of a class that lets out energy is better. Maybe back to swimming or quit all the other activities and JUST pay for the pricey gym class.

Side note, I think DS says a LOT of words and he is no where near sentences! For the first time the other day he said "no shoes!" and took them off. Hasnt said it since. He knows the name of all the colors, but whenever you ask him what color something is, its always green. He counts to 10.. 1, 2, 6, 10! He is good at animal sounds and pointing to animals and what they are. Im not in a rush to send him off to Harvard. Hes 1.5. We are good with everything being green.

holly321 · October 2014

I didn't read most replies, just wanted to say my 3.5 year old still doesn't sit still for a class. Her only class is dance and she barely participates . The teachers act like this is the norm. Now, we are pretty sure she is ADHD, but obviously she is older. and there is a family history.

On the other hand, I see her vs ds. He is a lot more focused than she was at this age. He seems a lot like your LO. We never let him down in public, because he will run around and get into everything he can. He barely talks. He has maybe 20-30 words and barely uses them. Ped. showed a little concern, but still doesn't think evaluation is necessary because says phrase like " thank you" and " look I did it" . if he wants a book, it gets handed to me, he doesn't ask.

brachysira · October 2014

@Sagen--thank you so much--I am happy to hear that some wild kids have some good future attributes too. My MIL seems like she hated parenting but says both her sons were terrible. I am pretty sure DH just taught himself to read before K, and then taught himself computer engineering in middle school--the foundation for the job he has now. He was incredibly isolated from living in a super rural area, not attending preschool, and then attending a small religious school, and I would not trade skill development for a social life...but I wonder how much of his childhood will be reflected in my children despite what I do.

expat--yes, we have tried the walking away bit...she would not care if we were eaten by monsters if she was doing something she enjoyed. She has no fear... Also, she has gone with my parents places and their detailed reports seem to indicate she acts the same with them. She is even more tantrum-y with my mom because she tries to teach her and show her more things than I do, and although DD is noticeably smarter after her visits, it nearly kills my mom. The baby-sitter takes her to library story time and reports all goes well, but there are clues that the baby-sitter just lets her do what she wants--run in and out of the story room, scream, etc. and so I think this is probably not ideal. I do let her play at home without intervention, but I can't think of any safe spaces where I do not ever have to intervene. She is fast and finds the nearest ravine, etc. with great ease. And just when I think she's done mouthing things, she'll have found some piece of metal to taste... I do think we will try to do preschool at 2.5...although it is 2K for 2 mornings/week and you pay in advance--I will have to inquire if there is a refund if she is kicked out.

We are scheduled at the development clinic when she turns 2. I don't know if she'll see the same person. I am considering not going, but on the other hand, it is a free assessment... but on the other hand, she probably won't do what they want again and it will make me feel bad if she scores at the 6 month level or something just because she acts like she doesn't hear them.

Yes, M says all colors are blue...and she does not count--just identifies numbers. Her sentences are largely I-based... I'm stuck, I'm done, I did... We will start swimming next month.

holly321 · October 2014

Sagen said:
My second was way advanced, sentence before 18 month, no lie. In kindergarten when other kids were learning to read he would read Magic Tree House chapter books cover to cover in one sitting. Extremely smart, extremely bright, hardest kid of them all! When he was three I would take him to playgroup for me, because I wanted to talk to other moms. He always clung to me and had huge embarrassing tempter tantrums, and we would have to leave. He has always been stubborn, and full of energy. He has curbed it big time, and I think he is a pretty well behaved boy, but none of it has come easy, except school. It has taken him more discipline, and more time outs for things to sink in than with my other kids. I honestly wonder sometimes if him being so bright in a way makes him harder? My other children are all incredibly smart with awesome grades, but the son I am talking about it just different. You don't even have to teach him, he just gets it. In first grade he knew his times table just from hearing me practice with my daughter, he picks things up fast. So who knows, maybe your bright little girl will be kind of a pill for you. Just don't be too hard on her. Be consistent, and don't let her get away with crap, but know you are not alone.

Just wanted to say, your son reminds me a lot of my dd. She is incredibly smart and advanced. She too talked in sentences before 18 months. But we are having a lot of social problems. Point is, thanks for saying all this, helps me feel there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

tamarar5 · October 2014

I remember you posting when the Dr said she was bratty, and I remember thinking 1.) How totally ridiculous, and 2.) How completely inappropriate!

My 7 year old still has problems during still and participating in groups. She still has trouble sharing and not just taking things from her brother.

I think it sounds like you have a very active child and something like dance or swimming, or gymnastics would be a better fit. I also think it's important to challenge our kids to behave better. Are either of these groups something you could scale back on and do once a month or every other week? This still gives her the opportunity to challenge her group behavior, but gives you the break you probably need.

Check or your local YMCA for other activities. She needs something more physical that gets her up and moving. I got C into Creative dance when she was 2 and it was pretty inexpensive. And the Y often does scholarships for kids who want to participate if cost is a problem.

tamarar5 · October 2014

And E has no where NEAR 500 words. I think he might have 15 actual words, and have probably another 30-40 made up words that he consistently uses for particular objects. Like @Sagen‌ said, I'd shit myself if he used a full sentence to tell me something. Lol!

sjames2 · October 2014

We haven't done many classes because the few I have done ended in screaming and a tantrum. And I hate people staring so I run as fast as I can and never return.
My DD says many many different forms of dada, da, ada, doda, do, no, go, by, door, a bunch of gibberish, with a few more once in awhile but not often. I am starting to worry but am working hard on new words. There is no sentences phrases or anything else going on here. So I would say at 500 words. You are probably good!

brachysira · October 2014

Thanks guys! I am working on giving choices. Probably the bad way to do it, I do...like, you can put on your shoes, or we can stay home this morning...but that is moderately effective. She does enjoy choosing when it doesn't matter--like, she likes that I let her choose between grapes and a banana, but she also just likes when I give her either one because she is overjoyed each day at being given fruit. But I get it--more control when she can have it is good.

I do need to look into the Y--a LOT of moms I know use their childcare when they work out, and I know they have good classes too...

M's not so good with verbs...her most recent sentence is "cat piano bye bye"--indicating that the cat is no longer standing on the piano.

wifeofadam · October 2014

Honestly, I would think there is something wrong with my 19 month old if she COULD sit still for a thirty minute class or whatever. I don't think expecting her to do that is realistic or healthy.

I vote that you ditch any classes that are causing YOU stress. If it's not fun for both you and her, it's not worth your time and energy. Sure, you need to teach kids boundaries, but at this age, I don't think those lessons need to A) cost you money or

cause either of you stress.

To be 100% honest, I think you're worrying too much about the actions of a toddler. Everything you wrote about her behavior sounds completely normal and in no way an indication that she's going to develop problems in the future. In fact, these are normal developmental stages that she is supposed to go through in order TO develop normally. I hate that our society has taken normal childhood behaviors and made them abnormal simply because our culture and social practices are not practical for children, causing parents to think that there is something wrong with their child.

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