HTT: Businesses not hiring smokers.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Do I think a smoker can be aware of others and be responsible smokers? Yes.I think not hiring smokers is going too far. I've already given alternatives to the discrimination, which are smoke-free campus, more accountability for smokers, more accountability for time management. If there is a serious smoker whose habit is infringing on others working in healthcare, then that PERSON needs to be addressed, not the collection of smokers.

Foofie&thebean · August 2014

Weljadraak said:
Do I think a smoker can be aware of others and be responsible smokers? Yes.I think not hiring smokers is going too far. I've already given alternatives to the discrimination, which are smoke-free campus, more accountability for smokers, more accountability for time management. If there is a serious smoker whose habit is infringing on others working in healthcare, then that PERSON needs to be addressed, not the collection of smokers.

And I think we might have to agree to disagree. And I mean that in the least snarkiest way possible.

lmreath · August 2014

@Foofie&thebean‌ I didn't realize you were local. I work for Lgh. We have been tobacco free since January. Current employees were grandfathered in. But you are not supposed to smoke on campus.

Amjoy25 · August 2014

My mom smoked for many years and while she is hygienic the tobacco/nicotine aroma was always on her, us, our clothing, our home. It's disgusting. I had many years of bronchitis and other asthma/allergy induced issues...all bc of her smoking.

Smoking is bad mmmmmkay. I'm out bc this topic bores me. Smokers need to stop smoking. End of story.

ajjf1026 · August 2014

Weljadraak said:

Do I think a smoker can be aware of others and be responsible smokers? Yes.I think not hiring smokers is going too far. I've already given alternatives to the discrimination, which are smoke-free campus, more accountability for smokers, more accountability for time management. If there is a serious smoker whose habit is infringing on others working in healthcare, then that PERSON needs to be addressed, not the collection of smokers.

I think they are going as far as not hiring smokers entirely because the smoke-free campuses aren't necessarily working out. I know several smokers who go against policy and still smoke on grounds. Granted, they will get fired and that is their own fault. It also takes away time from their patients, as many workers take more than their alloted 15 minute break, or whatever it may be. I think that may be part of the reason why they're going this far, besides the health aspect of it, of course. Just a guess?

Foofie&thebean · August 2014

@lmreath‌ that's awesome! Small world.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.

Amjoy25 · August 2014

Weljadraak said:
Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.

---------------
Sorry I'm back. Fine. It's your right to smoke. Then it's my right not to hire you. Done.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Amjoy25 said:

Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.
--------------- Sorry I'm back. Fine. It's your right to smoke. Then it's my right not to hire you. Done.

Well with that line of thinking, as an employer it's my right to not hire you based on a plethora of personal choices.

huntjul · August 2014

Weljadraak said:

Amjoy25 said:

Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.
--------------- Sorry I'm back. Fine. It's your right to smoke. Then it's my right not to hire you. Done.

Well with that line of thinking, as an employer it's my right to not hire you based on a plethora of personal choices.

Employers hire or don't hire based on your personal choices all the time.

Personal hygiene: Didn't take the time to clean under your fingernails this morning? I don't want your dirty hands in my vet clinic, so you don't get hired.

Appearance: Chose inappropriate clothing for an interview? I don't want clients looking at a whale tail when you bend over and pick up their dog.

I'm pro hire who you want as long as it's not legal discrimination. And I don't count smokers as having the same legal no-discrimination rights as gender, race, etc -- although I understand it depends on the state.

Weljadraak · August 2014

huntjul said:
Employers hire or don't hire based on your personal choices all the time.

Personal hygiene: Didn't take the time to clean under your fingernails this morning? I don't want your dirty hands in my vet clinic, so you don't get hired.

Appearance: Chose inappropriate clothing for an interview? I don't want clients looking at a whale tail when you bend over and pick up their dog.

I'm pro hire who you want as long as it's not legal discrimination. And I don't count smokers as having the same legal no-discrimination rights as gender, race, etc -- although I understand it depends on the state.

Yeah, those examples are common sense. Smoking is an addiction and you cannot force someone to quit smoking. You cannot force someone to quit their caffeine or food addiction, but hey, I guess you don't have to hire them, either.

Weljadraak · August 2014

It's just unethical. Period. Saying someone CANNOT smoke (even on their OWN time) is not right. If I can't smoke at work because it's policy? Ok, I'll comply or find a new job. Now I can't smoke because I won't have a job if I do? Yeah, that's not crossing a line at all.

elllaf · August 2014

Caffeine and food addiction doesn't cause harm to others.
I've had a family member DIE from prolonged second hand smoke.
[General] you can't compare it or lump it into the same category.
It IS different.

@Weljadraak‌ you know I totes lurve you and this is just a civilized debate.

Weljadraak · August 2014

elllaf said:

Caffeine and food addiction doesn't cause harm to others. I've had a family member DIE from prolonged second hand smoke. [General] you can't compare it or lump it into the same category. It IS different. @Weljadraak‌ you know I totes lurve you and this is just a civilized debate.

Addiction always affects those around you, but this isn't really about the health of employees, though it's a nice sentiment. *As it stands right now, My stance is it would be okay to say NO SMOKING AT WORK. To say NO SMOKING IN YOUR FREE TIME is unacceptable. It infringes on personal freedoms. I'm sorry about the death in your family.

Personally, I'd love for people to choose not to smoke and that there was better access for ALL demographics to receive help for addiction. I'm not a monster. I just also agree people have a right to do certain, perhaps harmful behaviors.

*right now, cigarettes are legal. An 18 year old can buy cigarettes, and I'm fairly certain there is no law preventing younger children from smoking them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say EVERYONE knows smoking is bad for you, but there is nothing saying they cannot smoke.

kimbo1216 · August 2014

Good. Smoking affects more than just the smoker. It's not healthy for anyone. Second and third hand smoke have proven risks. Without having read other comments, I just don't see how it's a bad thing.

Amjoy25 · August 2014

Dammit you keep sucking me back in...ok, so I can do heroin on my own time? If I'm drug tested I'll say it's not on company time, but my own time? It's an addiction and hard to give up. Yes, it's illegal but shouldn't be clearly because it's my right it do it. Yes? It will affect others because it will affect my ability to do my job...so does smoking. Not just second hand smoke or because my clothes smell, but have you ever seen anyone in the throws of a nicotine fit? It's not pretty.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Amjoy25 said:

Dammit you keep sucking me back in...ok, so I can do heroin on my own time? If I'm drug tested I'll say it's not on company time, but my own time? It's an addiction and hard to give up. Yes, it's illegal but shouldn't be clearly because it's my right it do it. Yes? It will affect others because it will affect my ability to do my job...so does smoking. Not just second hand smoke or because my clothes smell, but have you ever seen anyone in the throws of a nicotine fit? It's not pretty.

You said it right there.
Eta smoking does not inhibit your ability to work.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Amjoy25 said:

Dammit you keep sucking me back in...ok, so I can do heroin on my own time? If I'm drug tested I'll say it's not on company time, but my own time? It's an addiction and hard to give up. Yes, it's illegal but shouldn't be clearly because it's my right it do it. Yes? It will affect others because it will affect my ability to do my job...so does smoking. Not just second hand smoke or because my clothes smell, but have you ever seen anyone in the throws of a nicotine fit? It's not pretty.

Have you ever seen someone in the throws of a caffeine fit? It's not pretty.

Weljadraak · August 2014

Amjoy25 said:

Dammit you keep sucking me back in...ok, so I can do heroin on my own time? If I'm drug tested I'll say it's not on company time, but my own time? It's an addiction and hard to give up. Yes, it's illegal but shouldn't be clearly because it's my right it do it. Yes? It will affect others because it will affect my ability to do my job...so does smoking. Not just second hand smoke or because my clothes smell, but have you ever seen anyone in the throws of a nicotine fit? It's not pretty.

Oh, but to answer your question. Yes, it's okay to do heroin in your own time.* Company time? Nope. While you're at it, snort a line of coke. Just don't bring it to the workplace, thanks.

*not from legal standpoint

huntjul · August 2014

Weljadraak said:

Amjoy25 said:

Dammit you keep sucking me back in...ok, so I can do heroin on my own time? If I'm drug tested I'll say it's not on company time, but my own time? It's an addiction and hard to give up. Yes, it's illegal but shouldn't be clearly because it's my right it do it. Yes? It will affect others because it will affect my ability to do my job...so does smoking. Not just second hand smoke or because my clothes smell, but have you ever seen anyone in the throws of a nicotine fit? It's not pretty.

Oh, but to answer your question. Yes, it's okay to do heroin in your own time.* Company time? Nope. While you're at it, snort a line of coke. Just don't bring it to the workplace, thanks.

*not from legal standpoint

You think it's ok to do heroin and coke on your own time? Not if you're a hospital employee, especially one with access to controlled drugs. That's a recipe for disaster.

psychdoc12 · August 2014

Amjoy25 said:

Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.
--------------- Sorry I'm back. Fine. It's your right to smoke. Then it's my right not to hire you. Done.

@amjoy25 I think I agree with you on not hiring smokers, but I have to ask - would you agree with not hiring obese people because it promotes an unhealthy lifestyle, etc.? I think about 75% of my nurses when I was inpatient were obese.

Weljadraak · August 2014

huntjul said:
You think it's ok to do heroin and coke on your own time? Not if you're a hospital employee, especially one with access to controlled drugs. That's a recipe for disaster.

PERSONALLY no, but who am I to say otherwise? I'm no advocate for illegal or legal drug use but if they're not seeking help thennnnn choices.

..and please, the hospital policy is outlining nicotine use and that's the subject. It goes without saying illegal drugs aren't tolerated. I want to say all occupations hold a zero-tolerance policy. That means, that same heroin user is choosing to run the risk of losing [more than] their job but as an outsider, that's their choice. You're steering the conversation into some debate about the morals of drug use. Do I think they should seek help? Of course. I'm not cold-hearted and I have a soft spot for addicts, but realistically speaking they know what they're doing and need to seek help themselves or have someone who seriously cares about them try to set up an intervention, which is a crap shoot because bottom line ADDICTS MUST WANT TO CHANGE. Believe me, I'd help them all if I could.

Weljadraak · August 2014

and in case you're wondering, shows like Intervention manage to glamorize something completely horrible. While they do a decent job showcasing what the addict and the families go through, there's a reason why most addicts are isolated and there's no such thing as a free trip to a 5 star rehab for the majority of addicts and their loved ones.

taylormarie923 · August 2014

Gah I have responses to everything and I won't remember half of them.

First, on the subjects of breaks and coverage, this is the number one thing that pisses me off. As a former smoker I NEVER expected extra down time for my habit. I had my 2 15 minute breaks and lunch. That was it. Anyone taking advantage of that is, well, taking advantage. I've had jobs were I didn't get a break at all and went 6-8 hours with out a cigarette.

Secondly, the smell doesn't linger that much. Especially not a 5 cig a day smoker like the example above. Those people you think of with leather skin, yellow teeth, and lingering smell are smoking multiple packs a day. I was a pack a day smoker and people would be shocked to learn I smoked. I'm sure towards the end of the day I smelled a little stronger, but for the most part I kept the smell to a minimum just by washing my hands before returning to work. All within my allotted 10 minutes, I even peed too!

Thirdly, and most importantly, they are discriminating against any person with nicotine (not tobacco) in there system. That means that the guy who smoked for 20 years and just recently was able to quit with the help of the patch or gum will not get hired. The vapor user, who won't smell like anything or cause any allergic reactions, won't be hired either.

Oh and let's talk about allergic reactions for a moment. Should we stop hiring people who use fragrances (I might be on board with that), scented lotions, certain detergents, etc just because someone MAY have a reaction if they are ultra sensitive?

The heroin comparison is ridiculous, I think we can all agree on that.

#ihopethismakessense #ivebeendrinking #dontfeellikeproofreading

Foofie&thebean · August 2014

taylormarie923 said:
Gah I have responses to everything and I won't remember half of them.

First, on the subjects of breaks and coverage, this is the number one thing that pisses me off. As a former smoker I NEVER expected extra down time for my habit. I had my 2 15 minute breaks and lunch. That was it. Anyone taking advantage of that is, well, taking advantage. I've had jobs were I didn't get a break at all and went 6-8 hours with out a cigarette.

Secondly, the smell doesn't linger that much. Especially not a 5 cig a day smoker like the example above. Those people you think of with leather skin, yellow teeth, and lingering smell are smoking multiple packs a day. I was a pack a day smoker and people would be shocked to learn I smoked. I'm sure towards the end of the day I smelled a little stronger, but for the most part I kept the smell to a minimum just by washing my hands before returning to work. All within my allotted 10 minutes, I even peed too!

Thirdly, and most importantly, they are discriminating against any person with nicotine (not tobacco) in there system. That means that the guy who smoked for 20 years and just recently was able to quit with the help of the patch or gum will not get hired. The vapor user, who won't smell like anything or cause any allergic reactions, won't be hired either.

Oh and let's talk about allergic reactions for a moment. Should we stop hiring people who use fragrances (I might be on board with that), scented lotions, certain detergents, etc just because someone MAY have a reaction if they are ultra sensitive?

The heroin comparison is ridiculous, I think we can all agree on that.

#ihopethismakessense #ivebeendrinking #dontfeellikeproofreading

To your first point, you may have followed the rules with your breaks but not everyone does.

To you second point, you may not think you smelled like smoke, and to the average person you might not have, but for severe asthmatic, that these health care workers may be assigned to care for, all it would take is for you to come back from a cigarette break and say get them out of bed for them to have an asthma attack. That smell is in your hair and on your clothes even with one cigarette.

In response to your third point this is copied from the letter I posted

"If an individual tests positive for nicotine because of authorized tobacco cessation efforts, such as nicotine gum or a nicotine patch, it will not impact that applicant’s offer of employment."

And to note they already do ban perfumes and fragrances.

bkeane619 · August 2014

I am an ex smoker and no one at my job knew. I think if it's legal it's none of the company's business.

Amjoy25 · August 2014

psychdoc12 said:

Amjoy25 said:

Weljadraak said:
Everyone knows smoking is considered bad. So are many other things we choose to do. We should still retain the right to do them.
---------------
Sorry I'm back. Fine. It's your right to smoke. Then it's my right not to hire you. Done.

@amjoy25 I think I agree with you on not hiring smokers, but I have to ask - would you agree with not hiring obese people because it promotes an unhealthy lifestyle, etc.? I think about 75% of my nurses when I was inpatient were obese.

No. I have many patients that are overweight and they are super healthy. BP is good, cholesterol is fine, etc. I struggle to make up diagnoses to treat them for obesity. Being overweight does not equal "unhealthy". Smoking in any way, shape or form is. There are no good attributes to it. None.

Jenball717 · August 2014

I wish cigarettes would be banned, that would take care of this problem as well as many others. Done.

(I know this can raise all sorts of hell, I have heard the other arguments. But that's how I feel. No offense meant to anyone.)

Lee81 · August 2014

I just came here because throws is bugging me. It's throes. And that seems pretty strong for nicotine withdrawal.

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