Flu shot?

Jay_Cee · July 2014

Yes, I will. We all do every year.

And anti-vaxers piss me the hell off. I'm not immune to rubella and the vaccine doesn't work for me. Herd immunity is supposed to protect people like me and my newborn next year who will not be old enough for the MMR shot. Because so many people are not vaxing, diseases (like rubella) are making a comeback. And people DIE.

People in third-world countries without widespread medical care would give their left arm for these vaccines. Yet people here say "no thanks!" What a fucking awesome first world problem.

HeyStVincent · July 2014

lizjennings81 said:

To me, vaccination is an active thing you do to protect your child's health and well-being. Like buckling a kid safely into a seat, it's an action you take to protect your child. The threat is real, just like a car accident, to them and to others – as a parent and as a member of society, it's my responsibility to minimize those risks.

THIS. I was going to say earlier...but didn't, but will now: The logic of "I don't get the flu shot and I've never gotten the flu" is the same thing as saying, "I don't wear a seat belt and I've never been injured in car accident," or "I've never used condoms, I've never gotten an STI." All you are is LUCKY and healthy. Congratulations. Not everyone is so lucky. What you don't know is that you can actually pick up the flu virus, shed it (meaning you're contagious) but never come down with noticeable symptoms of the virus itself. This is true of pretty much all viruses. Viruses and our immune systems are weird like that. If you get the flu shot you help prevent this period of "shedding" because your body is able to handle the virus before it gets to a point where it's able to use you as a vehicle to spread itself to others...others who aren't healthy enough to handle getting the flu.

Also, I feel like there is some misinformation on how flu the shot works. This is a quick primer on how it works:

1) You get injected with a dead virus

2) Your immune system identifies antigens of the virus as "not self" and launches an attack.

3) The result of this attack should be (if your immune system works correctly) the production of antibodies against the virus. This leads us to step 4.

4) You come in contact with the virus again. You either a) already have enough antibodies to kill the sucker before you even know you ever came in contact with it OR b) you have some antibodies and you're able to get a head start on the virus and don't get nearly as sick as you would have.

Now, if your someone with a weakened immune system (i.e. you're pregnant, undergoing chemo, elderly, very young, are taking immune-supressing medications, etc.) the shot will not work as well in you. This is why herd immunity is so important. Pregnant women are not nearly as immunocompromised as, say, someone taking immune-suppressing meds or someone undergoing chemo. That said, it's very possible the flu shot will not be as effective in a pregnant woman as it would be in someone who is not pregnant and is otherwise healthy. If you refer to my explanation above, your immune system needs to be well-functioning in order to make all of those antibodies.

Does this mean pregnant women might as well not get the flu shot? HELL NO. You'll at least get *some* immunity from the virus as long as your immune system isn't shot to hell for some other reason. Yes, you're still at higher risk of getting the flu, but with the flu shot you have a lower risk of developing life-threatening complications from the flu. That's HUGE, in my opinion. The risks of getting the flu shot are by-and-large much smaller than the huge risks associated with getting the full-fledged flu while pregnant.

Also, the whole anti-vax movement is based in anecdotal evidence. When you look at long-term, well conducted studies of thousands upon thousands of people, you will see that the anti-vax assertions just do no hold up. MMR does NOT cause autism. DOES. NOT.

Also, I would like to add that during my peds rotation I took care of a 15-month old child in the hopsital who had mumps. That child was not vaccinated. It was an awful thing for that child. But if you don't want to vaccinate, that's your decision. It's not going to change my approach to preventative healthcare with my children, as I'm sure my ideas and my discussion of science will not change anyone else's mind. I just wanted to make sure people at least understood how vaccinations, particularly the flu vaccine, work.

Neesey · July 2014

I and my mom are two people who rely heavily on herd immunity. I am asthmatic and have a severe allergy to the pertussis vaccine. I rely on those around me to be vaccinated to help protect me from getting a life threatening disease that unfortunately has been making a huge comeback. I've met people who have struggled for MONTHS to overcome whooping cough. It is a battle that is avoidable for people who can get the vaccine. Wish I could!
My mom has several autoimmune diseases and is immune compromised. Having her around for years to come is important enough for us to ask people if they are vaccinated before spending time with her. It's not worth the risk.
People also need to remember that you aren't automatically immune after getting a vaccine like the flu shot. It takes your body time to develop antibodies. Most doctors recommend getting the flu shot in October so you have time to build up that immunity before the worst of the season hits. I know I'll be getting mine in October!

PollyPositive · July 2014

I work in the medical field and am required to get the flu shot (or wear a mask for months for my 12 hours shifts...no thank you). I have gotten it for 7 years in a row, and will never look back. They have a preservative free version for anyone who is pregnant at the time of administration as well.

mamabumkin · July 2014

I don't understand how this thread turned into the argument of vaccinating or not vaccinating children against things like MMR, DPT, Herpes, ect... I thought we were talking about the flu shot.

The last real number statistic is from 2010 as far as mortality rates for flu and pneumonia -- 50,097 cases. Reference Here. This past year it looks like we may have had slightly higher peak than 2010, but it may average out as we are a bit lower now than the beginning of 2011. However we a significantly higher peak last year.

Out of the 2 million or so deaths that happen every year only about 2.5% of them are attributed to the flu and pneumonia.

Since I've been hospitalized for it once, you'd think I would be all on board for getting a flu shot. But the part of the flu that made me so sick was a bacterial pneumonia, a secondary infection. Viral pneumonia can be worse because it doesn't respond to antibiotics and doesn't normally respond well to attempts of antiviral treatments. Normally it isn't the actual flu that kills a person, but secondary infections that the weakened immune system can't fight off.

Why did I get so sick? Because I was a smoker. I was under a lot of stress at the time I got the flu. I wasn't eating healthy (in fact I wasn't hardly eating at all.) And I was ripe for being extremely ill.

As a teenager I experienced tonsillitis, bronchitis, and sinusitis on a bi-yearly occurrence. But that didn't start until I was 17 and started smoking. Most of my illness problems started when I started smoking (even when it wasn't a daily thing and only around other smokers.) I became a daily pack a day smoker when I was 18.

As a smoker I got sick quite often. I ended up with walking pneumonia once back in 2003, then I ended up with full blown pneumonia from a cold in 2005 (was on strong antibiotics but not hospitalized.) When I went into the hospital in 2009 with H1N1 (which they did test me and it came back positive, so I know I had it) the doctors told me if I hadn't been a smoker who had had pneumonia previously, I probably wouldn't have had pneumonia this time, as I was nearly over the flu by the time I went into the hospital.

In my previous post I did link to a study that showed there was very little change in the outcome of pregnant women getting the vaccination vs unvaccinated pregnant women and their newborn infants as far as outpatient and inpatient hospitalization due to the flu and secondary infections.

You don't have the have the flu to get pneumonia, I know this from experience. I think if a woman feels safer by having the vaccination then there probably isn't harm in it. If you're more into the holistic medicine and don't want the flu shot I don't think there is any harm in that choice.

Vaccinations against the flu is never going to stop the flu virus. Much like HIV, the flu virus mutates far to fast for vaccinations to be lasting any longer than one season, and even then the effectiveness against a strain is only good until there are mutations in the strain. In another of the CDC pages there I was browsing, it said there was something like 5000 or slight more H1N1 viruses identified, but only 2,008 of them are vaccinated against.

I didn't mean in my previous post that I got sick from the flu vaccinations I got -- not sure if someone was referencing that in a later post. I meant I still ended up getting the flu, even though I was vaccinated. Simply because I caught a different strain not in the vaccine.

I was highlighting that because I draw the conclusion from personal experience that the flu vaccination is not by any means a 100% immunity to the flu in any given season. Many people think when they get the flu shot that they won't catch the flu. Not only can you catch a bad case of the flu by a virus strain not covered by the vaccination, you can still catch strains you a vaccinated from, however they will likely be far easier to get over.

My own personal philosophy is bare minimum medical intervention in life in general. I go to the doctor when I absolutely have to, either because I am sick beyond my ability to fight it, my normal female gyno check up, and eventually colonoscopy and mammograms done when I am to that age. Unless I know I have an actual infection that is likely bacterial I don't take antibiotics.

I will vaccinated my LO against the standard things that are vaccinated against. However, I am planning on doing a slightly delayed schedule, because not everything has to be given the way that they often do it at pediatricians offices. I'd rather come in a few extra times in the first 24 months and spread out the vaccinations than do them so often as they do normally in the first six months.

I'm not in the camp that things vaccinations have caused the rise in autism, I think it is more coincidental occurrence than it is causational factor. I think there are more factors involved in the rise of autism in the past 20 years, but vaccinations are unlikely to be the cause. Now some of the other possible reactions that can happen to vaccinations and even deaths documented as caused by the vaccinations, are an issue, but they are rather rare in instance, and often are more rare than the possibility of catching a disease you are vaccinating against. Since neither my husband or I, or my other two children have had any problems with vaccinations, I find it unlikely that this LO would either.

I simply don't need to get a flu vaccine because I don't think there is a great enough benefit from it for it to be needed. Considering the risk of death caused by the flu is rather low in general, even for pregnant women.

I would assume that the whole conversation of vaccinating our children or not, is something that probably shouldn't be discussed on the board as it is a very heated discussion and both sides have their perceived points of rightness. Neither will convince the other of their beliefs, and much like religion and politics it ends up getting ugly and mean.

I think on the topic of the FLU every woman should make up her own mind as to how high her risk is to catching the flu (especially working in public areas --schools--or healthcare) and decide if it is not required if she should get the flu shot or not. I personally do not feel in a high risk of getting the flu, and don't feel I need the shot.

HeyStVincent · July 2014

@mamabumpkin - I completely respect your decision and your rationale. I think it's pretty sound logic. I will say that when the flu virus mutates you may still have *some* immunity to that mutated virus as parts of the virus may still look like the parts that you've developed immune recognition of. You'll still get sick, but again, you may not be quite as sick as you otherwise would have gotten. Or, on the other hand, it may not work at all and you may still get the full-fledged virus.

Also, the secondary infection you are talking about is a direct result of the flu virus. People wouldn't get bacterial penumonia if it weren't for having the flu in the first place. All those secretions from the flu (and possibly damage to your airway's natural defenses from inflammation caused by the virus), on top of the assault to your immune cells (also caused by the virus), then opens the door for bacteria to enter the lungs and cause a whole lot of problems.

You said this: "My own personal philosophy is bare minimum medical intervention in life in general. I go to the doctor when I absolutely have to, either because I am sick beyond my ability to fight it, my normal female gyno check up, and eventually colonoscopy and mammograms done when I am to that age. Unless I know I have an actual infection that is likely bacterial I don't take antibiotics. " And I coudn't agree more! The less medical intervention, the better. Stay away from the doctor's office or the hospital unless you absolutely have to be there. And antibiotics are not for viruses! We definitely over-prescribe them in healthcare (usually because patients want them and doctors don't want to argue with them).

chickyclg · July 2014

We will be getting a flu shot, we have gotten them every year since we started TTC. If anything can help keep our babies safe, healthy, and cooking for as long as possible, we will try it. Personal choice, but that is what we feel is right in our house.

Angeldcf · July 2014

100% yes on flu shot for myself & family/inlaws. I try to hold my tongue around some friends who are anti-vax mainly bc their reasoning always links me to somebody's blog or extremely poor study designs.

I would LOVE to have them join me in the hospital and take care of a newborn struggling with pertussis. Hear that baby gasping for air while the parents struggle, cry and pray to God that their child will live. Yeah- please go tell them that vitamins or essential oils will be just as effective for their kid.

Or my otherwise extremely healthy/active young adult pt who, (due to HIPAA I can't tell details), but refused the flu shot that year. S/he got the flu. Every hospital staff, visitor, other pt visitors over the MONTHS of his/her ICU stay that we spoke to became pro-flu shot due to what they saw (not read off someone's blog). This pt should be dead from the flu --> pneumonia --> multi-system organ shutdown. Hospital #1 wanted to withdraw support & told family to get a priest. We took a risk and accepted transfer. Every system was eventually being run by machines.

That's what frustrates me. I see people deal with the effects of diseases that can be prevented/minimized but can't publically discuss these details due to privacy laws. I truly wonder if they would change their stance if they came to work with us and saw the actual result and the suffering from these diseases.

weansworld09 · July 2014

@mamabumpkin please don't compare the flu to HIV. You are making a very poor comparison of viruses. Yes, they are both viruses, but most people will resolve the flu with minimal illness. However, HIV is an incurable, highly mutating virus. The replication process is so sloppy, thus rendering a cure to be highly difficult to achieve.
You ask that people not make this into a debate for the bump, but I think you made some pretty bold, debatable statements.

Sarahbe11 · July 2014

My ob gave me a checklist of medical thing/tests that I should do and when to do them. The flue shot was on there and it said it is okay. I am going to wait until this fall when I'll be in the second tri.

chicagojackie · July 2014

HerHighness said:
Absofuckinglutely!

This.

aggiebug · July 2014

07blessings said:

The whole anti-vaccs crowd is a sad product of our society's lack of general scientific knowledge and thinking. That is precisely why our LO will be raised with a scientific mindset. Even if they choose another career path, they will at least be equipped to know wtf is actually going on.
Actually most anti vax parents are EXTREMELY educated and have read ALL the research. It's closed minded people like you that don't take the time to talk to them to find out why.

You may have read some research, but you believed the fear mongering hype of the anti vaccine campaign instead of the reason and logic of a scientific study. I get it. It is easier to understand the emotions tied into the anti vaccine movement than to dissect and understand the logic and reason of a scientific study, but science is trying to keep you safe and healthy while your emotions are steering you astray.

Vaccines are some of the safest "chemicals" you can put into your body. They have decades of clinical and populational date to prove this. You are more likely to get struck by lightning twice in your life time than to have a life threatening vaccine reaction.

annagrya said:

This got ugly fast! Fwiw, I think both camps vaxers and nonvaxers make their decisions based on what they truly believe is best for their children. While nonvaxers are in the definite minority, you'll find that many holistic care providers don't vaccinate. I'm speaking primarily of chiropractors but also of holistic pediatricians who have a medical degrees (including our own), chinese medicine doctors (also degreed), and functional medicine doctors among others. I used to take antibiotics, synthetic vitamins, otc drugs, etc. After dd was born I had a major health crisis and I learned a lot about my body and how it's designed to express health if I support it correctly. The vaccine issue is just a part of all of that. But surely before dd was born and I felt well enough, I would've been right there with you on the flu shot.

Chiropractors get no clinical or evidence based education and should not be relied upon as a trusted source for any medical advice. Don't get me wrong, I do believe they can do some beneficial things for us in conjunction with proper medical treatment but they are NOT a medical professional. The shit I have heard come out of their mouths terrifies me.

As for the other professionals, you can find someone with any degree to support your opinion, but when you look at the profession as a whole and the overwhelming support for vaccinations is clearly evident you should really take pause and wonder why so few take the opposing point of view. This isn't even an issue that is still up for debate in the medical profession. The clinical evidence of the safety and benefits of vaccinations is so overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination it is ridiculous. Its as proven and validated as the discovery of penicillin as an antibiotic which no one really seems to question.

lalans · July 2014

I think I've only gotten the flu shot once or twice, when I was in Peace Corps and it was mandatory. Mostly for reasons other people have said: The vaccine is not super effective, I don't work in a risky environment (health care, child care, ect) and I'm very healthy. I also don't feel bad about not contributing to overall heard immunity with that one, at least at this point, although I could probably be convinced pretty easily on that point. That said, this year, flu shot it is, plus flu shot for hubby. Fortunately my job offers them so its super easy.

I work in international development, and someone up above mentioned how people in third world countries would give an arm and a leg to get vaccines. That is sadly so not the case in many parts of the world because of the same kindof of mistrust and mis-information that you see here, which is the same kindof mis-trust and mis-information that plagued the adoption of the smallpox vaccine 200 years ago. People still don't trust science, which is so incredibly sad and frustrating since the results can be so tragic, not just for your family but those around you.

SNail312` · July 2014

I'm incredibly passionate about vaccinating and have been asked several times recently about it. I was all hyped up ready to defend vaccinating, but you all have said everything I wanted to say and more. You guys are awesome

Torifaye27 · July 2014

I will be getting it! I am due feb 20 with my fourth child!

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