To clarify I am talking about when the individual is likely not going to make it another day or even 12 hours.
Obviously if someone has cancer that's untreatable and they do surgery to debulk tumors for palliative reasons that is totally different.
I assume you are a medical professional. It is easy for us to think clearly about medical decision-making because it is our job and we know the consequences, etc. But in general, you can't make blanket statements like this. Just because you wouldn't want to die that way doesn't mean you can dictate how others do. Have to respect patient autonomy. You have to remember you are dealing with soneones mother, father, brother, etc. I've seen people go to surgery who were absolutely going to die without it, probably die with it. Patient and family knew and they wanted to give her a shot in hell. What if it was your child? Would you give them a shot? In addition, if the surgeon is even willing to take the person to surgery then there is probably a smidge of hope of some kind. Some surgeons will say the patient is too unstable and call it then.
To the bolded: The problem arises when it's not the patient's decision. It's the family member doing something that may even be going against the pt's expressed, written wishes. When an MPOA makes a decision for the family member, it can go against the pt's written wishes and still be perfectly legal.
I've never seen this happen, I'm sorry if you have. If there are written prior wishes from the patient, you'd be hard-pressed to find a surgeon that would operate because a family member told them to. You can't force a surgeon to operate.
Unlike @MtnChickaD, I don't work in the OR, so you are correct, I have never seen surgery happen against someone's written consent (that doesn't mean I don't think it has happened), but every week I see a pt with tubes in them that they do not want because the person can no longer communicate for themselves and their MPOA has decided this is what is "best." Unfortunately, it is best for the family, not the pt.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see a family member like that either.
Also, worst case scenario, I have seen family members keep their "loved ones" alive and in nursing homes because they are still collecting social security or disability or something. Again, this is a WORST CASE and certainly not the norm. It makes me sick, though.
Thanks for the explanation @Amjoy25. So sorry about your H's aunt. I hope all goes as well as possible from here on out. I fucking hate cancer. So so so over it.
We had a motorcycle. We went through all of the safety courses, always wore boots, jackets, helmets, armor, etc. My husband was in a motorcycle accident when I was 10 weeks pregnant with DD1, the bike was totaled, and we didn't get a new one. And we never will.
FFTC: I still have my class M driver's license.
UO: I don't care if "times have changed," it's never okay to throw your own shower, it's never okay to invite yourself to an event, and it's never okay to wear a cocktail dress to a military ball (unless you are a bazillion days pregnant).
This! I remember the first Marine Corps Ball I went to when I was dating DH. I made sure to get a nice looking but conservative enough dress. I swear some of the guys there must have just grabbed escorts that were hanging around the casino as dates. I saw way too many cocktail dresses and club attire dresses.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
K, s/o of "motorcycles are unsafe" discussion (but really nothing to do with motorcycles being unsafe):
I think it's just as irresponsible to ignore your health. Personal anecdote (which we all know means FACT): My father had a heart attack in his 30s. He lived another 30 years overweight and with high cholesterol and then had another heart attack which killed him. So even though my father never stepped foot on a motorcycle (with or without a helmet) or jumped out of a plane or drove way too fast and recklessly on the highway, my son still never gets to meet his namesake.
Ok, this is one example, but there are SO MANY OTHERS I come across everyday, which I can't list here because HIPPA and I just get mad when people ignore their health. Exercise and take care of yourselves, people!!!
And to the many patients at work who tell me they "don't have diabetes and don't need insulin," just because you do not check your blood sugar or take medicine does not mean the disease doesn't exist.
Edit bc I used an extraneous comma and it was killing me.
@PinkDahLia44, the HIPPA/HIPAA Police are among us. Pretty sure HIPPA is a female hippopotamus in a Spanish-speaking country.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
Disagree. Will elaborate at length when I have time.
This may be wildly unpopular, but I'm not sure. And maybe it's more of a FFTC. I could never be a SAHM because I'm too worried about what would happen to us if something did happen to DH. Like if he was killed, was in a serious accident, or got cancer/some other illness.
In my mind, me having a job is some sort of added stability that we (I) have. Some money would still be coming in, I wouldn't have to scramble to find a job or get LO into daycare, and we would have health insurance still.
Although I don't think DH and I would ever get divorced, I've thought about how I need to make sure I have an income in case LO and I need to get our own place and I need to support us. Obviously DH would help out, but I would still need a job and my own health insurance.
I am in no way taking a dig at SAHMs, or saying working moms are better off. My family has had some very unfortunate things happen to them and it has really opened my eyes to how quickly things can go south if you aren't prepared for them.
This is very close to how I feel about being a working mom. My dad died when I was 10, which I think had a huge impact on how I viewed the world -- my 2 best friends had SAHMs, and I was really envious of them at times. However, when Dad died, I spent a lot of time wondering how it would have impacted us if my own mom was also SAH. My stepdad only recently told me how much of a struggle it was for her financially before they were engaged and he moved in -- I guess there was a period of time that we almost lost our house, even with mom working full time in a fairly well-paying position.
I know single parents and single income families make it work, but it scares me to think about being thrust suddenly into a situation like that.
I hate talking on the phone to customer service people at work. I MUCH prefer email. Have to explain why something got damaged in shipping and that we need a new part over the phone is excruciating. Maybe not an UO...but I feel like a lot of people prefer the phone.
Agree with this.... plus, when you have it in an email, your ass is covered.
We had a motorcycle. We went through all of the safety courses, always wore boots, jackets, helmets, armor, etc. My husband was in a motorcycle accident when I was 10 weeks pregnant with DD1, the bike was totaled, and we didn't get a new one. And we never will.
FFTC: I still have my class M driver's license.
UO: I don't care if "times have changed," it's never okay to throw your own shower, it's never okay to invite yourself to an event, and it's never okay to wear a cocktail dress to a military ball (unless you are a bazillion days pregnant).
This! I remember the first Marine Corps Ball I went to when I was dating DH. I made sure to get a nice looking but conservative enough dress. I swear some of the guys there must have just grabbed escorts that were hanging around the casino as dates. I saw way too many cocktail dresses and club attire dresses.
I have no idea what is appropriate for a military ball. Is it this?
Married my love 8-25-12
TTC #1 September 2012. BFP 2-2-13. DS born 10-16-13.
TTC #2 in December 2014. BFP 12-31-14. Expecting a September baby!
S/O military ball, I kind of feel bad for female officers having to wear their uniforms to the ball instead of getting to wear gowns like other women. Not that there isn't honor in the uniform, but they don't have the advantage of the romanticized image of the "man in uniform" nor is it particularly sexy or beautiful in the way that other women there are trying to dress. That being said, at least they don't have to worry about what they are going to wear or getting called a skank for their wardrobe choice.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
I agree. My sister called yesterday to say her mil is dying of stomach/pancreatic cancer. My sister said she never wants chemo again (previously had thyroid cancer). I immediately told DH I'd love 10 days of happy rather than 60 days of not feeling well while doing chemo.
sooner1981 I am not being snarky at all, but do you feel the same way about tractors? Do you think it's dumb to let kids have dirt bike competitions? You are very passionate about this, and I'm genuinely curious. I still very feel strongly that kids CAN learn things at a young age, so I'm curious where you think the cut-off is.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
Disagree. Will elaborate at length when I have time.
I am very interested in hearing both sides of this. The only thing I know about it is what I've seen on tv.
While I agree with assisted suicide, it will be a nightmare for health care professionals. The litigiousness of it, etc. I have a feeling that's why the orchid does not agree with it...unless it's religious reasons.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
Disagree. Will elaborate at length when I have time.
I am very interested in hearing both sides of this. The only thing I know about it is what I've seen on tv.
While I agree with assisted suicide, it will be a nightmare for health care professionals. The litigiousness of it, etc. I have a feeling that's why the orchid does not agree with it...unless it's religious reasons.
yes, how would it work with making sure people are of sound mind to make a permanent decision for themselves like that? Would you have to prove someone isn't depressed? I mean, terminal illnesses are depressing. I don't know how you decide what frame of mind is ok legally to make that choice.
This is where my concern is. Depression is treatable. I also worry about coercion from family members e.g. grandma is made to feel like she's being a burden to the family and chooses PAS leaving the money to the grandkids.
Along the medical lines I think that adults in their right minds with certain uncurable conditions should be able to choose physician-assisted suicide.
I agree. My sister called yesterday to say her mil is dying of stomach/pancreatic cancer. My sister said she never wants chemo again (previously had thyroid cancer). I immediately told DH I'd love 10 days of happy rather than 60 days of not feeling well while doing chemo.
Very sorry to hear. But just to clarify, refusing chemotherapy and going into hospice is not the same as PAS. I agree with your sentiment that in her circumstance quality of life is probably more important than quantity.
TL;DR: I’m against physician-assisted suicide due to practical, philosophical, ethical and professional reasons.
I guess I will clarify my stance against PAS since it appears to be an actual unpopular o.
Amjoy and psychdoc bring up good points on why legalizing PAS would be a practical mess. There are too many unanswered questions when it comes to having that much power over the end of a patient’s life. Indeed, it would be a litigious nightmare. The social issues would be endless, people refusing it to continue receiving benefits, families pushing for it to get insurance payments, etc.
I am ethically opposed to PAS because I believe this type of power would be in the wrong hands and wielded for the wrong reasons. The scenarios playing out in my mind involve using PAS to save hospitals and taxpayers money, and ultimately rationing healthcare.
No human, entity, govt, etc, should have the power to decide the worth of a life and whether or not it should go on. If PAS existed, I can think of many scenarios in which some lives may be deemed more worthy than others and a slippery slope would ensue. It is important in my line of work to treat everyone as equals, with dignity and respect, regardless of their contribution to society, age, etc.
As a physician, you take an oath to heal the sick, to cure when you can, to comfort and heal suffering, always. While it is within my scope of practice to ensure that patients are not suffering in their last days, it is not in my scope of practice to determine the time or date of their last day. I help people live the best, healthiest life as possible, which includes naturally passing away. In addition, PAS is the ultimate form of patient abandonment when they are in their most vulnerable state. There is always something you can still do for your patient.
@jsiglr, I am very sorry for the loss of your mom.
Re: UO
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see a family member like that either.
Also, worst case scenario, I have seen family members keep their "loved ones" alive and in nursing homes because they are still collecting social security or disability or something. Again, this is a WORST CASE and certainly not the norm. It makes me sick, though.
I know single parents and single income families make it work, but it scares me to think about being thrust suddenly into a situation like that.
While I agree with assisted suicide, it will be a nightmare for health care professionals. The litigiousness of it, etc. I have a feeling that's why the orchid does not agree with it...unless it's religious reasons.
#2 due 12.23.17