Rant - Reading Womanly Art of Breastfeeding

Emerald27 · July 2014

@SusieBW‌

The mission of each LLL Leader is to help every mother who comes to her or comes to a meeting meet her unique breastfeeding goals - whether that's 6days, 6weeks, 6months, 3+years! The job of a Leader is to help a mom determine what her goals are and help her overcome any challenges she encounters along the way. If asked, she will share the usual recommendations (i.e. she won't lie and change the rec based on a mom's view), but she will support and encourage the mother in whatever way she needs.

If this is not happening in your area, something can be done about it. PM headed your way shortly.

At LLL meetings, you encounter not just Leaders but other mothers, many of whom are strongly opinionated and very passionate. It can be hard for Leaders to manage meetings such that other moms in the group always remember to stay supportive and say the right thing. Regardless, your friend should have been approached later by a Leader with helpful information and words of encouragement.

themiss · July 2014

mping said:

The statement "I was ff and I'm smart!" Is along the same lines as "I didn't use a car seat and I'm still alive!" Nothing is all or nothing. They have just shown that OVERALL, not case by case, that ff people tend to have lower iq's. I was also ff and I hold zero judgement about women who choose to or are booby trapped into ff. But there are risks to ff and the book, that I find incredibly informative, just point those out. If you go to a LLL meeting, they state the same thing at the beginning of every meeting. Take what you want and leave the rest behind. They are also fully supportive of all mothers and all feeding but are there to help you bf any way that you see fit.

Who is "they"? Honestly, for every source you can find that claim formula feeding is bad, you can also find a source stating that it isn't bad for baby.

I mean, realistically, I can source a handful of articles who claim artificial sweeteners are good for you and not harmful, that global warming isn't happening so we shouldn't look for alternative fuel and food sources, the world is going to end in 2015 because someone 50 years ago claimed it will....doesn't mean "they" know anything or everything.

Rant aside, I was formula fed because I was adopted. There was NO other option for me. It was that or not be fed. My IQ is more than fine, thank you very much.

MsMacual · July 2014

turtlewifey said:

I read the book before I had DD and found it to be the most informative book on BFing out there. Is it crunchy and judgemental? Yes. But it also tells you the nitty gritty of BFing. It goes through just about every obstacle or issue you could face and offers real solutions on how to work through those. Anyone who has BFed knows it isn't as simple as just putting your kid on the boob. It is hard work, especially in those first few weeks. I think this book is a great resource (albeit a biased one toward natural birth, etc.) if you are serious about BFing.

Yes! I completely agree- this is one of the best books on breastfeeding that I've read and breastfeeding was one of the hardest, but most rewarding things that I've ever done. I also highly recommend Ina May Gaskin's breastfeeding book and Kellymom. All provide great advice, however, my experience has been that they all are biased towards natural birth and other "crunchy" parenting practices. In my almost 3 years as a parent, I've learned to use the information that was useful for me and ignore the rest. Everyone has an opinion about parenting- both good and bad and it is very easy to feel judged as a parent every single day. Learn now to tune it out now so you can stay focused on raising your child in the way that works best for your family. I skipped in both the Womanly Art and Ina May's BF book to the parts that I wanted to read. Obviously, you are considering breastfeeding if you are reading to the book- so I'd just skip the first chapter or two and move into the how to parts (and then go back and read those chapters again once LO is here!).

SusieBW · July 2014

Emerald27 said:

@SusieBW‌ The mission of each LLL Leader is to help every mother who comes to her or comes to a meeting meet her unique breastfeeding goals - whether that's 6days, 6weeks, 6months, 3+years! The job of a Leader is to help a mom determine what her goals are and help her overcome any challenges she encounters along the way. If asked, she will share the usual recommendations (i.e. she won't lie and change the rec based on a mom's view), but she will support and encourage the mother in whatever way she needs. If this is not happening in your area, something can be done about it. PM headed your way shortly. At LLL meetings, you encounter not just Leaders but other mothers, many of whom are strongly opinionated and very passionate. It can be hard for Leaders to manage meetings such that other moms in the group always remember to stay supportive and say the right thing. Regardless, your friend should have been approached later by a Leader with helpful information and words of encouragement.

@Emerald27
I just responded to your PM, but then I saw this and wanted to add - I have no idea who it was that my friends interacted with - leaders, other members, etc. It's possible that it wasn't the leaders, and that the leaders never knew that this went on. It's also possible that the leaders did approach my friends afterwards and try to patch things up. I just don't know. All I can say is that a few of my close friends were left with a bad impression of that group as a whole.

I do have some acquaintances on FB who I know are active with LLL and completely love it, but they are folks who live outside of my immediate area (next state over, etc.). Anyway, thanks for reaching out.

Emerald27 · July 2014

MrMrsandBaby said:
@Emerald27 - I'm going to keep reading the book, but I was seriously in tears when I read that part. I showed it to DH and he was in shock that it would say that. I had a lot of issues with giving up BFing and that just hit me hard and was not what I wanted/needed.

But I am going to keep reading! Eventually...

This is really great. I promise that there is helpful information in there.

But there's certainly no reason to read it cover to cover if you don't like the tone of the book. Maybe start with the sections on breastfeeding in the early weeks, and just use it as a resource from there on out. The tear sheets in the back can also be extremely helpful (and are available free online to print if you don't feel like scanning or tearing the pages out of your book).

And the hurt that you felt when you read the book's comparison of formula and breastmilk just goes to show how much you love your DD and want what's best for her, whether or not the book is right. I think that says something really lovely about you as a mother...it's obvious that you want to give your babies the very best.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

theresat858 said:

Studies show that formula fed babies have lower IQs when tested at age 2 than breastfed infants. You can be annoyed at the data, but the studies were actually conducted by the formula companies themselves (and presented in the booklet that came with a formula sample), so claiming it was funding by "big breastfeeding" isn't going to help.

The differences might not be significant in terms of your child, but there is a statistical difference. The good news is that newer formulas are better than older formulas (there is less of a difference).

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the rest. But it always amuses me when people get pissed off at scientific facts.

What bothers me about "studies" like this, is they only look at a few factors (sounds like in this case, FF vs BF babies and their IQ scores at age 2). What were some of the extenuating variables, such as family environment, health issues if any, exposure to learning, etc.

It's easy to compare two things and find a difference between them; but without knowing the whole story I believe it's unfair to use it as common knowledge. You can think I'm an idiot, whatever, but I don't think it's "scientific fact" to say all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies.

Emerald27 · July 2014

pnwlover12 said:

theresat858 said:

Studies show that formula fed babies have lower IQs when tested at age 2 than breastfed infants. You can be annoyed at the data, but the studies were actually conducted by the formula companies themselves (and presented in the booklet that came with a formula sample), so claiming it was funding by "big breastfeeding" isn't going to help.

The differences might not be significant in terms of your child, but there is a statistical difference. The good news is that newer formulas are better than older formulas (there is less of a difference).

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the rest. But it always amuses me when people get pissed off at scientific facts.

What bothers me about "studies" like this, is they only look at a few factors (sounds like in this case, FF vs BF babies and their IQ scores at age 2). What were some of the extenuating variables, such as family environment, health issues if any, exposure to learning, etc.

It's easy to compare two things and find a difference between them; but without knowing the whole story I believe it's unfair to use it as common knowledge. You can think I'm an idiot, whatever, but I don't think it's "scientific fact" to say all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies.

------------------------------------------------------
I do believe that in these specific studies, the criteria you listed and others were taken into account. I used to have the study bookmarked but can't find it.

ETA: I also think that neither the study findings, nor the book in the OP, nor @theresat858‌ were saying or would say that "all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies." An overall statistic doesn't imply all. There will be a broad spectrum of IQs in both cases.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

Emerald27 said:

theresat858 said:

Studies show that formula fed babies have lower IQs when tested at age 2 than breastfed infants. You can be annoyed at the data, but the studies were actually conducted by the formula companies themselves (and presented in the booklet that came with a formula sample), so claiming it was funding by "big breastfeeding" isn't going to help.

The differences might not be significant in terms of your child, but there is a statistical difference. The good news is that newer formulas are better than older formulas (there is less of a difference).

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the rest. But it always amuses me when people get pissed off at scientific facts.

What bothers me about "studies" like this, is they only look at a few factors (sounds like in this case, FF vs BF babies and their IQ scores at age 2). What were some of the extenuating variables, such as family environment, health issues if any, exposure to learning, etc.

It's easy to compare two things and find a difference between them; but without knowing the whole story I believe it's unfair to use it as common knowledge. You can think I'm an idiot, whatever, but I don't think it's "scientific fact" to say all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies.
I do believe that in these specific studies, the criteria you listed and others were taken into account. I used to have the study bookmarked but can't find it.

I haven't read any studies about it, so that could be true. I guess I just did a huge diservice to my poor, IQ deficient DD.

Emerald27 · July 2014

pnwlover12 said:

Emerald27 said:

pnwlover12 said:

theresat858 said:

Studies show that formula fed babies have lower IQs when tested at age 2 than breastfed infants. You can be annoyed at the data, but the studies were actually conducted by the formula companies themselves (and presented in the booklet that came with a formula sample), so claiming it was funding by "big breastfeeding" isn't going to help.

The differences might not be significant in terms of your child, but there is a statistical difference. The good news is that newer formulas are better than older formulas (there is less of a difference).

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the rest. But it always amuses me when people get pissed off at scientific facts.

What bothers me about "studies" like this, is they only look at a few factors (sounds like in this case, FF vs BF babies and their IQ scores at age 2). What were some of the extenuating variables, such as family environment, health issues if any, exposure to learning, etc.

It's easy to compare two things and find a difference between them; but without knowing the whole story I believe it's unfair to use it as common knowledge. You can think I'm an idiot, whatever, but I don't think it's "scientific fact" to say all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies.
I do believe that in these specific studies, the criteria you listed and others were taken into account. I used to have the study bookmarked but can't find it.

I haven't read any studies about it, so that could be true. I guess I just did a huge diservice to my poor, IQ deficient DD.

----------------------------------------
I am sure that your DD is NOT IQ deficient, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. Maybe I should stop commenting on this thread since I'm not making myself clear, and I don't want to offend anyone.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

Emerald27 said:

Emerald27 said:

theresat858 said:

Studies show that formula fed babies have lower IQs when tested at age 2 than breastfed infants. You can be annoyed at the data, but the studies were actually conducted by the formula companies themselves (and presented in the booklet that came with a formula sample), so claiming it was funding by "big breastfeeding" isn't going to help.

The differences might not be significant in terms of your child, but there is a statistical difference. The good news is that newer formulas are better than older formulas (there is less of a difference).

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on the rest. But it always amuses me when people get pissed off at scientific facts.

What bothers me about "studies" like this, is they only look at a few factors (sounds like in this case, FF vs BF babies and their IQ scores at age 2). What were some of the extenuating variables, such as family environment, health issues if any, exposure to learning, etc.

It's easy to compare two things and find a difference between them; but without knowing the whole story I believe it's unfair to use it as common knowledge. You can think I'm an idiot, whatever, but I don't think it's "scientific fact" to say all formula fed babies will have lower IQ's than that of BF babies.
I do believe that in these specific studies, the criteria you listed and others were taken into account. I used to have the study bookmarked but can't find it.

I haven't read any studies about it, so that could be true. I guess I just did a huge diservice to my poor, IQ deficient DD.
---------------------------------------- I am sure that your DD is NOT IQ deficient, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. Maybe I should stop commenting on this thread since I'm not making myself clear, and I don't want to offend anyone.

You didn't offend me, I think you are always respectful with your opinions on BFing. This whole thread offends me (not because of you, trust me), and I feel awful for any of the other moms who struggled with BFing and gave formula who have to read this.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

Nicb13 said:

pnwlover12 said:

I haven't read any studies about it, so that could be true. I guess I just did a huge diservice to my poor, IQ deficient DD.

Brush it off. Don't let this get to you, really.

Dude, I'm trying so hard lol. Fuckin' pregnancy hormones.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

theresat858 said:

Here are a few studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24947274

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24116864
(though this one describes "long term breastfeeding" as 6 months - not even a year - so it doesn't even take into account any differences in BFing vs FFing past 6 months).

This article discusses the confounding factors mentioned previously:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23975102
full text here:
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/8/e003259.long

That's the one that concludes that it's because parental IQ is higher that baby's IQ is higher, and not breastfeeding in and of itself - at least that's the gist of it... and suggests other ways of doing the study.

In any case, even where differences are seen, it's like 4 IQ points. That isn't really a very large difference - FYI for those of you claiming your FF kid is still smart.

The benefits of breastfeeding go far beyond IQ, though.

Yes, we know.

pnwlover12 · July 2014

Nicb13 said:

Emerald27 said:

---------------------------------------- I am sure that your DD is NOT IQ deficient, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. Maybe I should stop commenting on this thread since I'm not making myself clear, and I don't want to offend anyone.

I personally think you are the least offensive person on this board when it comes to this topic. FWIW.

Agreed. Your BFing support/advice is one of the first things I really noticed about you in the beginning. I think of you as sort of "mother earth" if that makes sense. I don't mean that offensively at all you seem very nurturing and supportive.

Emerald27 · July 2014

Nicb13 said:

Emerald27 said:

pnwlover12 said:

----------------------------------------
I am sure that your DD is NOT IQ deficient, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. Maybe I should stop commenting on this thread since I'm not making myself clear, and I don't want to offend anyone.

I personally think you are the least offensive person on this board when it comes to this topic. FWIW.

------------------------------
:x

ETA: that's for you too, @pnwlover12‌

pnwlover12 · July 2014

Nicb13 said:

theresat858 said:

Here are a few studies:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24947274

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24116864
(though this one describes "long term breastfeeding" as 6 months - not even a year - so it doesn't even take into account any differences in BFing vs FFing past 6 months).

This article discusses the confounding factors mentioned previously:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23975102
full text here:
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/8/e003259.long

That's the one that concludes that it's because parental IQ is higher that baby's IQ is higher, and not breastfeeding in and of itself - at least that's the gist of it... and suggests other ways of doing the study.

In any case, even where differences are seen, it's like 4 IQ points. That isn't really a very large difference - FYI for those of you claiming your FF kid is still smart.

The benefits of breastfeeding go far beyond IQ, though.

And the hits just keep coming.

I know right? I was so angry I just didn't even comment as I'm obviously already quite butt-hurt at this conversation lol.

Emerald27 · July 2014

Thanks for posting the studies, though, @theresat858‌. I'm too lazy today to do my own homework but really wanted to look into this. You've done my work for me.

toomanycats1 · July 2014

theresat858 said:

Snip

- FYI for those of you claiming your FF kid is still smart.

The benefits of breastfeeding go far beyond IQ, though.

What is with the still? He isn't smart in spite of the fact that he was formula fed... he's just smart. Like an old soul, just really, really ahead of the pack. Who knows, maybe he could have been 4 points higher I guess, but I gotta tell you for every kid I've met that is FF and still smart, there is a child that was BF and still a bit behind. Studies or not, I'm not buying that there aren't multiple factors that go into raising a child and forming their IQ, skills, etc.

With no 2 families exactly alike, I fail to see how they could do a truly controlled study well enough to determine how large a difference this has in IQ.

Sorry, not sorry for FF. Guess DS and this next LO are just going to have to find a way to muddle through life without those 4 points.....

pnwlover12 · July 2014

HelloSweetie1 said:

theresat858 said:

Snip

- FYI for those of you claiming your FF kid is still smart.

The benefits of breastfeeding go far beyond IQ, though.

What is with the still? He isn't smart in spite of the fact that he was formula fed... he's just smart. Like an old soul, just really, really ahead of the pack. Who knows, maybe he could have been 4 points higher I guess, but I gotta tell you for every kid I've met that is FF and still smart, there is a child that was BF and still a bit behind. Studies or not, I'm not buying that there aren't multiple factors that go into raising a child and forming their IQ, skills, etc.

With no 2 families exactly alike, I fail to see how they could do a truly controlled study well enough to determine how large a difference this has in IQ.

Sorry, not sorry for FF. Guess DS and this next LO are just going to have to find a way to muddle through life without those 4 points.....

THIS! You said it so much better than me.

AmandaJean12 · July 2014

HelloSweetie1 said:

theresat858 said:

Snip

- FYI for those of you claiming your FF kid is still smart.

The benefits of breastfeeding go far beyond IQ, though.

What is with the still? He isn't smart in spite of the fact that he was formula fed... he's just smart. Like an old soul, just really, really ahead of the pack. Who knows, maybe he could have been 4 points higher I guess, but I gotta tell you for every kid I've met that is FF and still smart, there is a child that was BF and still a bit behind. Studies or not, I'm not buying that there aren't multiple factors that go into raising a child and forming their IQ, skills, etc.

With no 2 families exactly alike, I fail to see how they could do a truly controlled study well enough to determine how large a difference this has in IQ.

Sorry, not sorry for FF. Guess DS and this next LO are just going to have to find a way to muddle through life without those 4 points.....

As much as I hate to jump into this late, Ohio State released a study earlier this year that looked at siblings who were fed differently. Even though there was a statistical difference between FAMILIES who choose breastfeeding (which brings in socio-economic and other factors) there is no statistical significance between siblings who are formula fed vs. breast fed. Except, actually, the breast fed kids had a higher incidence of asthma.

I'm not knocking bf at all. I hope I can breastfeed my LO. I just don't like people flinging around "scientific facts" without putting it all out there.

toomanycats1 · July 2014

crawford411 said:

I just came home and saw this and I couldn't stay out of it.

There was an article recently in one of my NP journals that compared breast-fed to formula fed siblings (N of about 8,000 siblings) and when socioeconomic status other variables were accounted for, there was almost no statistically significant differences in IQ or school performance. There were some slight differences, but not nearly as many as you'd think.

Here's the link to a summary: https://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/02/sibling-study-finds-no-long-term-breastfeeding-benefits-for-kids

My professional and personal opinion... breast feeding is good for mom and baby if it works. I think every woman should consider trying it. That's it. Consider trying it and don't sell yourself short thinking you can't do it before you've tried.

But if it doesn't work, feed your kid formula. Kid needs to eat and mom needs to be reassured that baby is getting good nutrition. I can't imagine that mom feeling exhausted, guilty, and resentful will produce a better relationship or better long-term outcomes just because the baby is eating breastmilk, especially if baby is not getting enough to eat.

Stop torturing each other over choosing between two healthy options.

I love all of this!

slsl509 · July 2014

I saw that same article about there not really being a difference. I loved BFing DD after getting over the initial hell the first 2 weeks or so. I really treasured that experience and am excited to do it again with this LO. DD is pretty damn smart but I don't think that has anything to do with BF and everything to do with her superior breeding

She was super healthy too...and then she went to daycare at 6 months and was sick constantly. She still gets sick a lot. That whole conferred immunity thing was a bunch of BS.

trisharenee0316 · July 2014

mping said:

The statement "I was ff and I'm smart!" Is along the same lines as "I didn't use a car seat and I'm still alive!" Nothing is all or nothing. They have just shown that OVERALL, not case by case, that ff people tend to have lower iq's. I was also ff and I hold zero judgement about women who choose to or are booby trapped into ff. But there are risks to ff and the book, that I find incredibly informative, just point those out. If you go to a LLL meeting, they state the same thing at the beginning of every meeting. Take what you want and leave the rest behind. They are also fully supportive of all mothers and all feeding but are there to help you bf any way that you see fit.

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