Do you agree with 12 year olds being tried as adults?

SandyClam · June 2014

I just read a news story about a 12 year old girl that was attacked by 2 of her 12 year old friends in an attempt to kill her. Luckily, the girl that was attacked is in stable condition. The 2 attackers are being tried as adults. I always feel conflicted when I read these stories. On one hand, if it were my child, I would want her attackers tried as adults. But on the other hand, those children will likely have no life after that. I have to think that their parents should hold some sort of responsibility. Maybe I have a disconnect because I'm not around 12 year olds but, to me, it seems like they're still not completely responsible for their actions at that age.

CinemaGoddess · June 2014

Those kids? Yes.

In general? No.

CinemaGoddess · June 2014

I think this is an entirely different situation from something like shoplifting or stealing a car for a joyride.

These girls had planned this since December. They went through draft scenarios. The did their research.

I can't give this up to simply "they didn't know what they were doing because they're 12". They tried to kill this girl in cold blood. Only by pure luck did they fail.

If they weren't tried as adults, they would likely be out of whatever detention facility they were in within 6 years. That's not long enough for what they did.

taggiecb · June 2014

I do not. I know there are exceptions, but I cannot even imagine that a 12 year old could fully grasp what it would actually mean to end another person's life.

CinemaGoddess · June 2014

Sterling13 said:

But if they are tried as adults their lives are over. At 12. Don't get me wrong, I think what they did is horrible, but there's probably a lot of layers to it. What is their home life like? Have they been abused? Are they mentally unstable? Are they bullied? I'd feel a lot differently about a 16 year old vs. a 12 year old.

their victim's life would've been over at 12.

I can't get behind a reasoning that absolves them of all guilt because of their age.

They may have been bullied. They may have had home issues. They may be sociopaths created by their use of the internet.

But they did try to intentionally kill someone.

Maybe they should spend their lives in an institution instead of a jail.

SpaceGirlSpiff · June 2014

It's just such a gray area for me to make a blanket statement on all cases so I picked that it depends on the situation

This story.... the juvenile system isnt enough for this, I feel that in my gut....but at the same time, they are so young and it's weird to imagine life in prison for a 12 year old too... especially because I feel there are definitely some mental issues at play here. I think maybe long term or even life long commitment to an institution may be more the answer than straight prison... but... I'm really still just trying to process this story and still can't wrap my mind around it. It's just awful for all involved...

CinemaGoddess · June 2014

bearsbearsbears said:

Can someone link the story?

Hopefully this will work.

GDI. Ok, I'll do it this way

Stabbing Story.

fancynewbeesly · June 2014

For this case. Yes.

In the case of joyriding/shoplifting/etc---no.

msdrdg · June 2014

I voted that it depends on the crime. For this, yes they should be treated as more than just a child. They planned this for months. They came up with different senerios. They thought this out a lot. It's not like they took a shirt from the mall or something stupid. They meant to kill this other girl.

fancynewbeesly · June 2014

The plotting it for months gets me.

I would even say that if it was in the spur of a moment/argument got heated/etc---my feelings would be swayed the other way. But they plotted/planned everything for MONTHS. It was a complete deliberate act.

kmh2201 · June 2014

piffle42 said:

I think at 12 they should know it's wrong, obviously, but they don't have the maturity to understand it in the same sense as an older teenager, like PPs have mentioned. There is probably more to this story and they clearly need help.

Also, I may be a "mean mom" in this regard, but why the fuck were they getting unsupervised internet time to be looking at stuff like that? My parents were always keeping tabs on what my sister and I were doing.

This whole quote, but especially the part I bolded.

This may be a dumb question, but what is Slender Man? (Honestly, I'm afraid to google it...)

jorkz821 · June 2014

bearsbearsbears said:
How does this happen? Seriously speaking--how are these two children so terribly broken where they would commit such a crime?

This. There must be some background or extenuating factors here.

Who or what is Slender Man? If it's an adult at the other end of the website, then is that person being held accountable too? Almost more so than the kids?

jesuisfatiguee · June 2014

It's a hard no for me. I do not agree with it under any circumstances.

SandyClam · June 2014

After reading everyone's responses, I still feel on the fence. I can see both sides. I want to hear what the parents have to say. (The parents of the attackers.)

wino2006 · June 2014

This happened not too far from me. I am not sure how I feel about this. These girls planned this for months. There was definite premeditation. However, it sounds like at least one of the girls is mentally ill. In WI, anyone over the age of 10 charged with homicide is charged as an adult. I was not aware of this until today and I find this alarming. We are 1 of 4 states that do this.

SandyClam · June 2014

MrsBadKat said:

What exactly does it mean to be tried as an adult? Are they eligible for the death penalty? Life in prison? Being placed in a facility with adults? If the answer to any of those questions is 'yes', then mark me down for a firm "No".

I assume it means they're eligible for any sentence an adult would serve. I am not sure how their imprisonment would be served though. I can't imagine that they would be placed in the general population.

SandyClam · June 2014

Spooko said:

I'm about 90% certain that even when tried as an adult a juvenile isn't eligible for the death penalty, per SCOTUS. Life sentences and general pop are on the table, though.

Really? Wow. I assumed that they would be separated from actual adults.

Mags748 · June 2014

Starearedkid said:
The plotting it for months gets me.

I would even say that if it was in the spur of a moment/argument got heated/etc---my feelings would be swayed the other way. But they plotted/planned everything for MONTHS. It was a complete deliberate act.

This is what is really haunting me. This happened in the city I lived in for the past 8 years until we moved last summer (only 20 minutes away so we still live close). I read a quote from one of the girls saying something about how she knew she should feel remorse but she didn't. There is obviously some mental health/personality disorder things going on here, but in my personal and professional experience (as an RN with many people on my case load with severe and persistent mental illness), people with these issues cannot always be rehabilitated. Maybe give these girls a chance to be, but if there is any question of their mental stability, they should not just be given the benefit of the doubt and have it assumed that they were just children with poor judgement and a need for a some therapy and psych meds. At age 12 of course you don't have good judgment, but you do know right from wrong. To plan something out like this for months while being a "friend" to this girl is just sick beyond anything I can comprehend.

ready-or-not · June 2014

"fredalina"

For me it's that they should have known how serious and permanent it was. You can say kids don't make decisions like adults and that's true but I think a reasonably intelligent 12 year old understands death and its permanency. And they plotted it out. For months.

Ditto this, & also the story I read (MSN maybe?) said that the girls went back & forth on who was going to do the stabbing until one finally got up the nerve to do it. They knew exactly what they were doing & what their desired outcome was. DD1 is 12 & she knows & understands the finality of death. I don't know if I agree with them being tried as adults, but I think they need some serious help. & God bless the poor victim.

DD had a Slenderman app downloaded on my phone, it was like a video game. She played it for a while but eventually got bored with it & deleted it. I can't even imagine her getting wrapped up in something like this, either as the assailant or the victim. SMH what's the world coming to.....12 years old, their just babies....

Mags748 · June 2014

LexiLupin said:

Spooko said:

I'm about 90% certain that even when tried as an adult a juvenile isn't eligible for the death penalty, per SCOTUS. Life sentences and general pop are on the table, though.

But only since '05.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62584-2005Mar1.html

Mur'ca.

Regardless, there is no death penalty in Wisconsin so it wouldn't apply to these girls no matter what.

[Deleted User] · June 2014

No. They're children. They need serious intervention in a safe place with psychiatric care that they obviously need. They need to be kept away from people they might harm. But a plain old jail sentence? No. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart, but I don't think it's right to just give up on kids that young and send them to rot until they're released with no coping skills or legit life skills whatsoever.

[Deleted User] · June 2014

And this isn't just about the kids. If it was attempted murder, they're going to be free citizens at some point. How can we expect someone who grew up in prison to be able to function in society? Prisons are recidivism factories, not places for rehabilitation. We only create a greater dangers to society if we allow children to become adults in prison.

[Deleted User] · June 2014

And yes, a 12 year is capable of understanding the reality and permanence of death. But their brains are not capable of processing risk or controlling impulses like adult brains are. It's their biology. Would we feel differently if the culprits were cognitively disabled adults with the mental capacity of 12 year olds?

littlestjerry · June 2014

I'm in the absolutely not camp as well. And dear sweet Jesus, the thought that juvenile executions were ever ok makes me sick.

RondackHiker · June 2014

Little Jerry said:
I'm in the absolutely not camp as well. And dear sweet Jesus, the thought that juvenile executions were ever ok makes me sick.

I just spent time reading about the execution of juvenile offenders in the US. It's sickening. There was a 14 year old black boy convicted and killed in 1942 for the murder of two white girls with NO EVIDENCE. His family wasn't allowed to be there and his defense attorney was running for reeelection.

And one in 1982 where he had an IQ of 75, huntington's, and was under the control of the other killer and he was still convicted and executed. He killed at 17 and was put to death after age 18.

RondackHiker · June 2014

fredalina said:
I would absolutely not be okay with the death penalty for the girls even of they'd been "successful" and it were on the table in WI. But we're talking about basically the difference between 13 years in juvenile lockup or 6 plus 14 in adult lockup, plus scrubbing their record or having it public and having parole or having it just go away when they are released. I'm kind of ok with either really. Neither seems over the top. I would not support them in adult lockup until 18.

I agree.

I wasn't bringing up past death penalties of minors thinking you were suggesting that. I just started on a spiral thinking "surely we've never executed a child" and was sadly proven wrong.

MarisaKathleen · June 2014

LoisLayn23 said:

FWIW, we talked about this on S12 yesterday, and one of the gals actually knows the family.
https://forums.thebump.com/discussion/12358804/um-wtaf#latest
@marisakathleen

Thankfully I don't know their families--I can't imagine what they're going through.

Our sitter's son is in the same class as the girls and really did say that yes, they were all friends and that they all seemed "as normal as 12 year old girls are."

This morning on the news they were saying that a judge ordered one of them to undergo a psych eval, so who knows where that will end up. And I don't know if any of you saw it, but it came out last night that the parents of one of the girls are into death metal, Halloween & skulls, and were aware of her "thing" with this Slenderman, so clearly they're bad parents for not assuming that their child was going to become obsessed and plot to murder her friend.

I'm on board with them being tried as adults. If it were a spur of the moment thing, I would probably feel differently. It's sickening that they plotted this out for so long and that they had different scenarios they were working with. I just think the whole thing is disturbing.

RondackHiker · June 2014

My parents let me watch horror movies and read horror books at 12. I bet they'd have let me play slender man (well, i'm guessing as I haven't played it myself).

Was it sarcasm to say that the parents are bad parents for letting them play the game @MarisaKathleen‌?

jesuisfatiguee · June 2014

RondackHiker said:

My parents let me watch horror movies and read horror books at 12. I bet they'd have let me play slender man (well, i'm guessing as I haven't played it myself). Was it sarcasm to say that the parents are bad parents for letting them play the game @MarisaKathleen‌?

This is what I am wondering.

billybumbler · June 2014

it came out last night that the parents of one of the girls are into death metal, Halloween & skulls, and were aware of her "thing" with this Slenderman, so clearly they're bad parents for not assuming that their child was going to become obsessed and plot to murder her friend.

Dear lord I hope you're being sarcastic

MarisaKathleen · June 2014

Sorry, forgot I'm not a regular over here. Yes. I'm being 1000% sarcastic.

I think blaming the Internet, blaming music, blaming anything other than these kids is completely idiotic.

MarisaKathleen · June 2014

LoisLayn23 said:

MrsBadKat said:

That girl on S12 who knows them is kind of a jerk for all her assumptions and bets about what the parents will do in regards to suing the school. I imagine they are pretty horrified that their children did this and getting a paycheck is probably not even on their radar. Jesus.

Eh, I think she just has more intimate details of the situation than the news coverage.

Also, I'm not a jerk, really I'm not. It's literally the only thing on the news right now, and it's been brought up. The school sent home a big letter yesterday as well as confiscated the iPads of everyone else so they could go through them. They're doing their best trying to triage the situation because they are partially at fault since the girls had access to this while at school due to no filters.

MarisaKathleen · June 2014

uconnhuskie007 said:

MarisaKathleen said:

Sorry, forgot I'm not a regular over here. Yes. I'm being 1000% sarcastic.
I think blaming the Internet, blaming music, blaming anything other than these kids is completely idiotic.

Phew!

PS We don't know each other, but I have a well known deficiency in my ability to read sarcasm on the internet. You had me all WTFing there for a sec.

Ha, I forgot that this wasn't my "regular" board since Lois tagged me. I'm sarcastic to a fault, so I should have probably been more literal that time. :-)

MarisaKathleen · June 2014

uconnhuskie007 said:

MrsBadKat said:

The person who created the meme did not encourage people to kill.

I admittedly don't know the intimate details of the folks behind the whole creepypasta wiki shit so please correct me, but is there not some indication that these girls were contacted or influenced directly in some way by a 3rd party related to the slenderman situation?

I think that's why the one girl is being evaluated right now. She is claiming that she was "visited" and that's why she knew that in order to be considered a proxie for this Slenderman that they should kill their friend. That part seems pretty weird to me, so I'm wondering if more info will be coming out about that as her mental evaluation takes place.

DreadLoc · June 2014

even if the school were monitoring the device regularly, creepypasta wouldn't necessarily raise any red flags. as a tween i regularly read old horror story webpages and read about serial killers. on media center computers. i don't think reading creepy shit on a daily basis is unheard of for that age bracket.

really, if the school did monitor the content, they would have failed if the girls were googling on how to cover up a murder or best places to stab or shit like that.

Unknown · June 2014

This content has been removed.

rin89 · June 2014

overture said:

And this isn't just about the kids. If it was attempted murder, they're going to be free citizens at some point. How can we expect someone who grew up in prison to be able to function in society? Prisons are recidivism factories, not places for rehabilitation. We only create a greater dangers to society if we allow children to become adults in prison.

First of all this^ Clearly, these girls have issues. 12 year olds don't murder people on a regular basis. They need help, and they won't get it when they're thrown in gen pop. The odds of them getting life in prison are slim because they cannot be charged with murder. So at some point these girls are going to be let back out into the world, having spent some of their most formative years in prison, and everyone is going to expect them to be productive law-abiding citizens. Yeah, totally not going to happen, if anything they will be more screwed up than before.

Second, you can disagree all you want, but 12 year old's are NOT capable of truly understanding death and mortality. They may know it's wrong and that death means a person is gone, but they do not have the cognitive skills to fully comprehend the concept and consequences of murder. Knowing something is wrong is far different from understanding why it's wrong.

These girls are sick and they need help. Yes, they need to be punished, they are old enough to know they did something wrong. But they are not adults and developmentally will not be for a very long time.

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