I love the name Ryan for a girl but can't seem to find the right middle name to go with it. I want something girly since Ryan is traditionally a boys name. Suggestions?
My first suggestion is to re-think using Ryan on a girl.
And if that's an absolute impossibility, then I guess here are some middle name options...
Ryan Jane
Ryan Elizabeth
Ryan Kathryn
Ryan Eleanor
Ryan Mae
And as I type all these, it just feels wrong.
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I appreciate your idea of using a feminine middle but honestly when I hear Ryan Victoria (for example) I just wonder why Ryan's parents gave him a girly middle name.
Can I suggest the feminine name for the first and Ryan for the middle?
Elizabeth Ryan Cora Ryan Cecilia Ryan Victoria Ryan Magnolia Ryan Farrah Ryan Scarlett Ryan Elaina Ryan
But if you like less frilly options
Maris Ryan Brenna Ryan Tatum Ryan Darcy Ryan Piper Ryan Veda Ryan
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I went to high school (many moons ago) with three girls named Ryan. I'd never heard it on a girl before that and I always thought it was crazy that there were three of them with the name. That being said, I'm used to it as a girls name now but I still think most people will automatically assume any child named Ryan is a boy regardless of the middle name.
I tend toward the frillier names myself, but I can't really get too upset about gender-swapping names. Fight the gender binary. I wish that people did it as often for boys as for girls — the fact that they don't suggests that it's less that they truly love a particular name and more that they still embrace a gender binary, albeit one that has room for "strong" girls, but not "gentle" boys.
That said, your little Ryan/Ryann/Ryanne/Rian/Rhyan will not be the only little girl with that name. In the US, there were 436/250/83/83/83 girls with those names born in 2013.
And if you have a son, consider Avery, Evelyn, Ashley, Aubrey, Addison, Harper, Lilian, Mackenzie, Emerson, Ellis, etc. All perfectly fine names for boys with long histories of masculine usage.
I tend toward the frillier names myself, but I can't really get too upset about gender-swapping names. Fight the gender binary. I wish that people did it as often for boys as for girls — the fact that they don't suggests that it's less that they truly love a particular name and more that they still embrace a gender binary, albeit one that has room for "strong" girls, but not "gentle" boys.
That said, your little Ryan/Ryann/Ryanne/Rian/Rhyan will not be the only little girl with that name. In the US, there were 436/250/83/83/83 girls with those names born in 2013.
And if you have a son, consider Avery, Evelyn, Ashley, Aubrey, Addison, Harper, Lilian, Mackenzie, Emerson, Ellis, etc. All perfectly fine names for boys with long histories of masculine usage.
I agree with every word of this.
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I tend toward the frillier names myself, but I can't really get too upset about gender-swapping names. Fight the gender binary. I wish that people did it as often for boys as for girls — the fact that they don't suggests that it's less that they truly love a particular name and more that they still embrace a gender binary, albeit one that has room for "strong" girls, but not "gentle" boys.
That said, your little Ryan/Ryann/Ryanne/Rian/Rhyan will not be the only little girl with that name. In the US, there were 436/250/83/83/83 girls with those names born in 2013.
And if you have a son, consider Avery, Evelyn, Ashley, Aubrey, Addison, Harper, Lilian, Mackenzie, Emerson, Ellis, etc. All perfectly fine names for boys with long histories of masculine usage.
I agree with every word of this.
Thirded. Names and their usage evolve and change. Leslie and Ashley used to be boy names and now most people associate them with girls. Maybe Ryan won't ever go that route but there's no reason to limit your choices because OMG BOY NAME. Obviously what is a "boy name" and "girl name" is mutable and rather arbitrarily assigned.
Genuine question: Are you planning to use her full name (first and middle) on a regular basis? For example, if you named her Ryan Elizabeth, would you call her 'Ryan Elizabeth' or just 'Ryan' and use 'Elizabeth' only as further clarification of her sex?
I tend toward the frillier names myself, but I can't really get too upset about gender-swapping names. Fight the gender binary. I wish that people did it as often for boys as for girls — the fact that they don't suggests that it's less that they truly love a particular name and more that they still embrace a gender binary, albeit one that has room for "strong" girls, but not "gentle" boys.
I want to emphasize this point. We maybe get one post on this board about someone wanting to use a "feminine" name for a girl for every hundred that we get from people wanting to use a masculine name for a boy. As a society we obviously still privilege masculine qualities over feminine qualities and allow girls to be boyish but not vice versa (is there a non-pejorative male equivalent for the word "tomboy," even?). You can't break down the gender binary by only pounding on one side.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
I strongly disagree that Ryan has been unisex for decades, when I think unisex I think works for either, could be either one. When I hear Ryan, I immediately think male. I know Tyler spiked for girls in the 90's, it's now back out of the top 1000 for girls, that did not make it unisex, that made it trendy and still masculine.
I think the reason that you haven't had luck finding a girly MN for Ryan is because it sounds odd to have a boy name followed by a girl name. It sounds like it's identifying two separate people as opposed to one. And I do not think Ryan sounds girly at all. I have a niece with a boys name and a traditional girly MN and it sounds so off to me even now.
Obviously what is a "boy name" and "girl name" is mutable and rather arbitrarily assigned.
Nooooooooo. Oh my god, no.
Names have histories and etymologies that are rooted in their language's history. Suffixes (like -son) and prefixes (like Mc- or Mac-) mean something. These words and their gender aren't arbitrary in the slightest. You can choose to ignore the gender of the name - sure - but to assume that it's arbitrary and has no rhyme or reason is just ignorant.
Sure, all words have roots. However, names, like the English language itself, evolve over time. Sometimes words start out meaning one thing and change over time. If you've ever used a slang term, you're not the language purist you think you are.
Plus, not all names we think of as "masculine" have masculine roots like Ryan does. Leslie means joy, Ashley means from the ash tree field, Rowan is a kind of tree, Gregory means vigilant. None of those meanings are gendered. Maybe you don't like those names on girls but in many cases yeah it's arbitrary. I've had people tell me "River" is obviously a boy name. You know what River is? A river. What's so "manly" about a river? People assign too much importance to shoving people into boxes.
This is biased, coming from a mom to a daughter with a masculine name. If Ryan is a name that you and your SO love and agree on, rock it. I know 3 little feminine Ryans, one goes by Ry. I would advise to pair with a very feminine MN.
There is a lot of pearl-clutching, sweet geezus NO, when it comes to masculine names on girls. Like any trend, it works for a lot of people, it doesn't for others. The term uni-sex is often adopted because, well... Names are used on boys and girls (no problem for some). The root may be distinctly masculine or feminine, but if thousands of people share a name, that is uni-sex.
I have a unisex name. A name that's been more common on females in this country than males for a very long time, but very masculine in every other country. I hated it growing up. HATED. I wanted a feminine name. Like Victoria or Ann. Now it's just a word that I'm obligated to respond to. So I have either bias or experience, soooo...
Plus, not all names we think of as "masculine" have masculine roots like Ryan does. Leslie means joy, Ashley means from the ash tree field, Rowan is a kind of tree, Gregory means vigilant. None of those meanings are gendered. Maybe you don't like those names on girls but in many cases yeah it's arbitrary. I've had people tell me "River" is obviously a boy name. You know what River is? A river. What's so "manly" about a river? People assign too much importance to shoving people into boxes.
The meaning may not be gendered, but the gender of the word itself would be obvious in the original language. English is about the only Indo-European language that doesn't have grammatical gender, except residually. The discussion we're having would be nonsense in Hebrew or Latin or Greek because in all of those the gender of a name is patently obvious. Gregory is masculine in Greek. Its ending is masculine and it functions as a masculine noun in an inflected language in which gender isn't arbitrary but affects the very structure of grammar.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
This is biased, coming from a mom to a daughter with a masculine name. If Ryan is a name that you and your SO love and agree on, rock it. I know 3 little feminine Ryans, one goes by Ry. I would advise to pair with a very feminine MN.
There is a lot of pearl-clutching, sweet geezus NO, when it comes to masculine names on girls. Like any trend, it works for a lot of people, it doesn't for others.
Yes, it works for boy names on girls, but not girl names for boys. I think it's sexist. I probably get more worked up about linguistics, but the fact that this road only goes one way is actually more of an issue because it's reflective of gender attitudes that IMO are still pretty screwy and affect both our daughters and our sons.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
Plus, not all names we think of as "masculine" have masculine roots like Ryan does. Leslie means joy, Ashley means from the ash tree field, Rowan is a kind of tree, Gregory means vigilant. None of those meanings are gendered. Maybe you don't like those names on girls but in many cases yeah it's arbitrary. I've had people tell me "River" is obviously a boy name. You know what River is? A river. What's so "manly" about a river? People assign too much importance to shoving people into boxes.
The meaning may not be gendered, but the gender of the word itself would be obvious in the original language. English is about the only Indo-European language that doesn't have grammatical gender, except residually. The discussion we're having would be nonsense in Hebrew or Latin or Greek because in all of those the gender of a name is patently obvious. Gregory is masculine in Greek. Its ending is masculine and it functions as a masculine noun in an inflected language in which gender isn't arbitrary but affects the very structure of grammar.
There we are, someone who speaks my language!
A couple of them! Though I'm kind of rusty these days.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
Plus, not all names we think of as "masculine" have masculine roots like Ryan does. Leslie means joy, Ashley means from the ash tree field, Rowan is a kind of tree, Gregory means vigilant. None of those meanings are gendered. Maybe you don't like those names on girls but in many cases yeah it's arbitrary. I've had people tell me "River" is obviously a boy name. You know what River is? A river. What's so "manly" about a river? People assign too much importance to shoving people into boxes.
The meaning may not be gendered, but the gender of the word itself would be obvious in the original language. English is about the only Indo-European language that doesn't have grammatical gender, except residually. The discussion we're having would be nonsense in Hebrew or Latin or Greek because in all of those the gender of a name is patently obvious. Gregory is masculine in Greek. Its ending is masculine and it functions as a masculine noun in an inflected language in which gender isn't arbitrary but affects the very structure of grammar.
There we are, someone who speaks my language!
Okay, so we're naming an English speaking child (presumably) according to the rules of another language. That really brings me back to "language changes and evolves". We borrow words from other cultures and languages all the time, and they don't always play by the original rules once they're brought over. English is mutt of a language, and our words and the implications of those words change with the times and cultural mores of the day. Names are not immune to those shifts by virtue of being imported from other languages any more than "regular" words are. In fact we have seen the evolution of names from one gender to another (usually male to female) over timespans as short as a few decades.
The meaning may not be gendered, but the gender of the word itself would be obvious in the original language. English is about the only Indo-European language that doesn't have grammatical gender, except residually. The discussion we're having would be nonsense in Hebrew or Latin or Greek because in all of those the gender of a name is patently obvious. Gregory is masculine in Greek. Its ending is masculine and it functions as a masculine noun in an inflected language in which gender isn't arbitrary but affects the very structure of grammar.
Responses like this (not only this one, @bromios, I love yours too!) are what make me love this board. The intelligent discussions! Ahhhh.
I appreciate your idea of using a feminine middle but honestly when I hear Ryan Victoria (for example) I just wonder why Ryan's parents gave him a girly middle name.
Can I suggest the feminine name for the first and Ryan for the middle?
Elizabeth Ryan
Cora Ryan
Cecilia Ryan
Victoria Ryan
Magnolia Ryan
Farrah Ryan
Scarlett Ryan
Elaina Ryan
But if you like less frilly options
Maris Ryan
Brenna Ryan
Tatum Ryan
Darcy Ryan
Piper Ryan
Veda Ryan
This is what we did. I love the name Ryan for a girl, but I did not want her to have to go through life with people assuming she was a boy until they met her. So we opted for the very feminine Evangeline and paired it with the masculine Ryan for a middle name. Also, I am not a fan of feminine first and feminine second.
I'm no linguist, and I assume most of the people you and your children encounter outside of TB aren't either. I think Ryan or Riley are very nice names for girls. I tend to like masculine names on girls. I know baby girls named Alex, Charley, Emerson, and Riley. I went by "Chris" growing up (except for that brief period in middle school where I tried to make "Chrissy" happen. I am not a Chrissy).
I'm no linguist, and I assume most of the people you and your children encounter outside of TB aren't either. I think Ryan or Riley are very nice names for girls. I tend to like masculine names on girls. I know baby girls named Alex, Charley, Emerson, and Riley. I went by "Chris" growing up (except for that brief period in middle school where I tried to make "Chrissy" happen. I am not a Chrissy).
The same way Julia, Fiona, and Gloria are delightful for little boys?
No, but in the same way Taylor is popular for girls. I understand your point, but I don't believe OP is trying to take a stand against gender norms by naming her daughter Ryan. And, Ryan has been in the top 1000 names for girls since the 1970s in the US (almost dead even with Taylor, back then). Anyway, name your kid what you want, I'm just saying that, as a person with no formal (or informal) education in linguistics - as a regular person on the street - I like it. You ladies, who have actually studied this, know more and have your judgments based on the roots of these name. Most people are not aware of those roots. I had no clue about the king connection until this post.
I have to agree with the whole "don't use a boys name for a girl." i don't know, it just seems weird to me. Would you ever name a boy Ashley? And yes I know some people do it, but in today's day and age I just don't think it works. there are so many awesome names out there...
What about a fem version? Like something close...Rhiannon, Rylan, etc. Not totally my style but just some other suggestions.
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If you like the style of masculine names (like Ryan), but don't want to saddle your girl with a name she might not like having, you could always choose a feminine name with a possible "boyish" nickname. Jacqueline could be Jack, Charlotte can be Charlie, Alexandra can be Alex. That way, the child can easily choose the more boyish nickname if she likes that best, or can go by her more feminine full name.
In the OP's case, it seemed like just the name Ryan was what she liked, but if it's just boyish names in general, this might be a good option.
I'm no linguist, and I assume most of the people you and your children encounter outside of TB aren't either. I think Ryan or Riley are very nice names for girls. I tend to like masculine names on girls. I know baby girls named Alex, Charley, Emerson, and Riley. I went by "Chris" growing up (except for that brief period in middle school where I tried to make "Chrissy" happen. I am not a Chrissy).
The same way Julia, Fiona, and Gloria are delightful for little boys?
No, but in the same way Taylor is popular for girls. I understand your point, but I don't believe OP is trying to take a stand against gender norms by naming her daughter Ryan. And, Ryan has been in the top 1000 names for girls since the 1970s in the US (almost dead even with Taylor, back then). Anyway, name your kid what you want, I'm just saying that, as a person with no formal (or informal) education in linguistics - as a regular person on the street - I like it. You ladies, who have actually studied this, know more and have your judgments based on the roots of these name. Most people are not aware of those roots. I had no clue about the king connection until this post.
ETA: I can't fix the font issue, sorry.
Everyone who supports Ryan for a girl is avoiding a question that is much more significant to me than the linguistic issue. You don't need to be a trained linguist to answer these two questions: 1. Would you ever give a boy a traditionally feminine name? 2. If you wouldn't, isn't that - I'm just going to be blunt here - sexist? How can we raise children (not just girls, but boys - if you don't have a son yet, you may not be concerned about this, but I sure am) who are confident in the traits that aren't typically attached to their gender if we subtly send the message through our naming conventions that it is okay for girls to be masculine but not vice versa? Because we all know damn well that nobody is ever going to come on here suggesting they name their son Fiona, and if you think seriously about why, it should give you pause.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
I will answer RE: sexist, even though I would personally not use a traditionally male name for a female (the trend doesn't bother me, though).
Yes, it's sexist. I don't care for the message it sends (female traits are weak and undesirable, male=GOOD). I don't think or believe for one second that any person (or hardly any person) consciously names a DD a boy's name with that thought.
I think that most people, when naming their children, give little more thought than "hey, I like the way that name sounds."
BFP 1- EDD 2/09/11 Missed MC DX @11 weeks D&C- 7/25/10 BFP 2- EDD 12/22/11 Natural MC @ 5w 2d BFP 3- EDD 1/25/12 DD Josephine born 1/16/12
I will answer RE: sexist, even though I would personally not use a traditionally male name for a female (the trend doesn't bother me, though).
Yes, it's sexist. I don't care for the message it sends (female traits are weak and undesirable, male=GOOD). I don't think or believe for one second that any person (or hardly any person) consciously names a DD a boy's name with that thought.
I think that most people, when naming their children, give little more thought than "hey, I like the way that name sounds."
@Helenahhandbasket True. I don't think anyone is consciously thinking that either. I mean, that would be malicious and I don't think people name their kids with malicious intent. It just bothers me as a trend because that's the message it sends. And it bothers me that people who like the trend rarely address this question directly, at least not on this board. I don't think it necessarily has to deter parents from using a boy name for a girl (although there are lots of reasons I wouldn't) if they feel like it's THE name, but I do think it's an issue that has ramifications beyond naming that parents should think about.
DD born 10/10/07 * DS born 11/25/11 * #3 due 3/9/2015
I am also in the minority here, but I think Ryan is perfectly fine on a female. In fact, I've always associated it as a unisex name. The first Ryan I met was a girl. Now, married to a Ryan. It goes either way for me.
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@capulet-- right-- and while the trend doesn't really bother me in the sense that I don't think the parents are coming from a sexist mindset-- I DO think it's a good and valid point to bring up, because there are probably some parents that were not aware of that notion.
While there are some names that started as male and are almost universally accepted as female (like Ashley--at least in the US), I don't know if Ryan will ever be one of them. JMO.
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Re: Ryan for a girl
And if that's an absolute impossibility, then I guess here are some middle name options...
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Can I suggest the feminine name for the first and Ryan for the middle?
Elizabeth Ryan
Cora Ryan
Cecilia Ryan
Victoria Ryan
Magnolia Ryan
Farrah Ryan
Scarlett Ryan
Elaina Ryan
But if you like less frilly options
Maris Ryan
Brenna Ryan
Tatum Ryan
Darcy Ryan
Piper Ryan
Veda Ryan
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Baby Name Popularity by State
NN suggestions: Alexandra, Isabella, Sabrina, Penelope, Elaine, Veronica, Olivia
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Would you consider something like Rhiannon?
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I agree with every word of this.
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There is a lot of pearl-clutching, sweet geezus NO, when it comes to masculine names on girls. Like any trend, it works for a lot of people, it doesn't for others. The term uni-sex is often adopted because, well... Names are used on boys and girls (no problem for some). The root may be distinctly masculine or feminine, but if thousands of people share a name, that is uni-sex.
A couple of them! Though I'm kind of rusty these days.
This is what we did. I love the name Ryan for a girl, but I did not want her to have to go through life with people assuming she was a boy until they met her. So we opted for the very feminine Evangeline and paired it with the masculine Ryan for a middle name. Also, I am not a fan of feminine first and feminine second.
What about:
Ryan Elizabeth
Ryan Juliette
Ryan Marie
Ryan Noelle
I have to agree with the whole "don't use a boys name for a girl." i don't know, it just seems weird to me. Would you ever name a boy Ashley? And yes I know some people do it, but in today's day and age I just don't think it works. there are so many awesome names out there...
What about a fem version? Like something close...Rhiannon, Rylan, etc. Not totally my style but just some other suggestions.
Oh. You must be new here.
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Everyone who supports Ryan for a girl is avoiding a question that is much more significant to me than the linguistic issue. You don't need to be a trained linguist to answer these two questions: 1. Would you ever give a boy a traditionally feminine name? 2. If you wouldn't, isn't that - I'm just going to be blunt here - sexist? How can we raise children (not just girls, but boys - if you don't have a son yet, you may not be concerned about this, but I sure am) who are confident in the traits that aren't typically attached to their gender if we subtly send the message through our naming conventions that it is okay for girls to be masculine but not vice versa? Because we all know damn well that nobody is ever going to come on here suggesting they name their son Fiona, and if you think seriously about why, it should give you pause.
@capulet-
I will answer RE: sexist, even though I would personally not use a traditionally male name for a female (the trend doesn't bother me, though).
Yes, it's sexist. I don't care for the message it sends (female traits are weak and undesirable, male=GOOD). I don't think or believe for one second that any person (or hardly any person) consciously names a DD a boy's name with that thought.
I think that most people, when naming their children, give little more thought than "hey, I like the way that name sounds."
BFP 1- EDD 2/09/11 Missed MC DX @11 weeks D&C- 7/25/10 BFP 2- EDD 12/22/11 Natural MC @ 5w 2d BFP 3- EDD 1/25/12 DD Josephine born 1/16/12
In fact, I've always associated it as a unisex name. The first Ryan I met was a girl. Now, married to a Ryan. It goes either way for me.
@capulet-- right-- and while the trend doesn't really bother me in the sense that I don't think the parents are coming from a sexist mindset-- I DO think it's a good and valid point to bring up, because there are probably some parents that were not aware of that notion.
While there are some names that started as male and are almost universally accepted as female (like Ashley--at least in the US), I don't know if Ryan will ever be one of them. JMO.
BFP 1- EDD 2/09/11 Missed MC DX @11 weeks D&C- 7/25/10 BFP 2- EDD 12/22/11 Natural MC @ 5w 2d BFP 3- EDD 1/25/12 DD Josephine born 1/16/12