Take pride-warning RANT

MommyAtty · March 2014

I am the white sheep in my family. I have a very, very large trashy contingent in my family. DH's is the same way. This is a loooong rant. I'm sorry but need to get this out.

So my mom was the only working mom in all her siblings. 3 sisters and 3 brothers married to women who stayed home. Her siblings all lived in varying degrees of poverty. So do their kids, which again consists entirely of one-income families, if they are lucky. Both my mom and me put up with phenomenally obnoxious comments about how "it must be nice to be rich." As though it was a fluke and not determination and hard work and sacrifice to help provide for our families. And my parents weren't rich.

Two things that have happened recently have set me off. One, a cousin with whom I was very close growing up, is a 43 year old single mother of a jr high age girl. Cousin has never had a full-time job. She has a college degree. She has lived with her parents pretty much her whole life (I think she had her own apartment for about 6 months.). Why? And I quote: because she is doing the most important job in the world raising her child and can't have a job outside the home. She and her daughter are both on welfare. Her mother raises her kid while she lays on her fat butt and watches television. Her kid is a total freaking mess. Cousin called me recently to say that since her father has died and her mother is in bad health, my husband and I should take in her and her daughter since my husband and I have a big enough house. Otherwise "what will happen to them?" Um, I don't care. Get a job. I have one, which explains the big house.

Second thing. DH has a niece in her early 20s who has a child with her boyfriend. She's on disability because she is deaf, but she is absolutely capable of working. She and her boyfriend are not financially making it, and on Facebook she is wailing and whining about the fact that she needs to go to work part time and leave her almost 2 year old with her mother a few hours a day. Her kid's language and behavioral development are phenomenally delayed, and her own mother says it's because she parks the kid in front of the tv to go smoke pot with her friends all day long. Again, they live in poverty. In a house in the Pacific Northwest that has minimal heat so they turn on the oven and open the door to keep the house warm. Super safe for a toddler almost 2 years old. My MIL just admonished me for mentioning we had to get a new car for DH on Facebook because it would hurt the pot-head's feelings. She's apparently already jealous bc I'm pregnant and she wants to have a second child and her BF refuses. The car is just "salt in the wound." Omfg. Then please unfriend me.

So, where is this going? To all of you who work "because you have to," please reframe how you look at it. You work because you care about caring for your children the best way you can. Certainly you could be a freeloader living with relatives or in utter poverty where your kids aren't safe. I'm proud of all of us who get out there every day, and face jobs that some days we hate, and leave our kids with others even on days we would rather snuggle them all day long, because we love our kids and want what is best for them. Some of us have other reasons, too, but even if you're just doing it to make ends meet, be proud of that.

Okay, that's out of my system. Sorry for the rant. It's been a hell of a week. I normally try not to judge, but every button I have has been pushed. And I'm having third trimester hormones to boot!

PSU_Texan · March 2014

Amen sister!

jlaOK · March 2014

Ha. For a while there I thought you were talking about my extended family
:P

I tend to find that the de-friend button on Facebook and the silent button on my cell phone works wonders with those types of family members.

SoMoNY · March 2014

As a fellow white sheep may I say THANK YOU and Amen!

mlee116 · March 2014

Amen! As much as I fantasize about being a SAHM, I would never do it if we could not adequately provide for our family on one income. I feel very fortunate that I have education and a job that allows me to not only help provide, but gives a little extra cushion. I know people who SAH and can barely afford basic essentials. So irresponsible, IMO. They are one unexpected expense from being totally screwed. Thank you for posting

Myaflowers · March 2014

Good point. I have a post master's degree and where we live, daycare is so expensive that we would barely break even if we had to pay for 2 kids. We are fortunate that DH is able to stay home with DD during the day and still work in the evenings. If we had to pay for daycare, one of us would have probably quit our job because it wouldn't make sense to pay for daycare when we might actually end up losing money to pay for it.

jf198400 · March 2014

I think regarding the OP's family that since they are already relying on public assistance, they could easily qualify for daycare subsidies in order to work. If you need to work you find a way.
Also in regards to "must be nice to make a ton of money," it all depends on how you look at it. I have a high income and can easily afford 2 in daycare. I would prefer to be a SAHM so for me it actually kinda sucks. My DH would be much more supportive of me SAH if I wasn't bringing in any money after daycare.

mlee116 · March 2014

I live in a VLCOL rural area. The median income for a family is below $35,000. Compared to what I've seen on the bump, I pay peanuts for childcare, housing, etc. Childcare costs would never exceed $6K per child. I commute to a different town, where those same expenses are drastically different. No, I don't "make a ton of $." If I told you all what my salary is, you'd probably laugh. My H is a teacher and compared to what most people make who work in the same town, he does pretty good. Maybe that puts it into perspective. So yes, my situation is different from others and I'm lucky that I do have a choice.

aglenn · March 2014

Yeah, I see where the OP is coming from (and have some similar family dynamics myself) but it's not always an easy equation of working = better conditions. Day care around here is ridiculously expensive. I had kids later in life so my income was at a level where I could afford really good care, but if I had them in my 20s, even working a professional job with a Masters degree I would not have been able to afford the kind of care I have for them today. I tell people at work all the time when they are judging young coworkers who quit to SAH that if it came down to a choice between iffy childcare and SAH, I would have chosen to SAH as well. It's just not always that simple.

This is not to say that there aren't irresponsible, freeloading parents as well. Sure, there are. It's just a complicated picture even with the best of intentions.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Hi! Thanks for visiting. Not all of us do the math in such a way that we're counting the entire cost of daycare against one person's salary. DH & I both work and having our daughter in daycare allows for both of us to work, so I tend to split the cost in half - that we're each giving up $7.5k a year of our salary to work full time. But I understand why a lot of families would do the math against just one income, so to answer your question:

- I use a licensed in-home that I'm really happy with and comes out to 13k/year, but there's also licensed care available in my HCOL area for 8k. Even if I worked at minimum wage, that would generally cover the cost of daycare, so yes I think most working mothers do make enough to least break even after taxes if they've chosen a lower-cost daycare. (and I won't even go into all the childcare subsidies low income people qualify for my area) Maybe not as many break even after retirement contributions, health care premiums, and premiums for other kinds of insurance (dental, life, etc) but those contributions aren't nothing - those contribute to our family's long term financial health, and short-term health. I carry all the benefits for my family and my husband's work is somewhat contract based, so even though he could enroll in health insurance now, that's not guaranteed 3 months from now and we'd be in a very risky situation if we relied on him for our family's health insurance.

-Also, a lot of my working mom friends have staggered their schedules with their husbands. So one spouse may work full time, the other works 25-35 hrs/wk with some of those hours at night and some on Saturdays, and they both have prioritized work place flexbility over other things for the time being, so I don't think it's all or nothing - to work or not to work. Even my SAHM friends actually work 4 hours here and there. It's more a question of how much to work and when. For me, a 60 hr/wk job would not be worthwhile for me, or you'd have to give me enough for me to hire a fabulous nanny who cooks and cleans for me so that when I am home, I'm 100% focused on my kids.

-In terms of breaking even once you have two, you have to do the math to see what your options are based on your circumstances. Some people find it's not worthwhile for them to continue working with two kids in full time care. One alternative in that case is to stagger schedules. Another is to reduce costs in other areas - move further out in the burbs to get a lower COL. Another is to try to find part time work. Another is to change the kind of childcare you're using - if your first born was in a formal center, look into a part-time preschool for some days and otherwise have both kids in a licensed in-home, so maybe you're facing 1.5x the cost of childcare compared to when you had with one, compared to 2x. Or maybe one of the parents should stay home full time. It just depends.

Anyway, I hope that helps shed some light on the fact that being a working mom doesn't mean you're rolling in dough. Most of the cashiers at my local Walmart have kids and not working isn't an option for them - most mothers in this country work and for most, it is a necessity, and for those of us who don't absolutely have to, it probably still makes financial sense for us to work, even if we're not highly paid. Whether it makes psychological sense is a whole other discussion.

mae0111 · March 2014

This is not always the case. I know plenty of people that can't afford to have both parents work the same shift and pay for childcare, so one works a full-time 8-5 office job, and the other works part time evenings and weekends to make up the difference. Once in a while they get into a pinch where one has to leave before the other can get home, but they can usually find someone to step in for an hour or 2.

I know another family that sort of "wings it" with childcare. The mom works so part-time, and has her schedule so far in advance, that she can usually find family members to pitch in and help out. If not, her DH takes the day off or WFH. This works better now that the kids are in school FT, but they made it work for a long time while the kids were younger.

Some people truly can't figure out a way to work and have their children cared for. But lots of people can, and feel that it's their God-given right to SAH.

SoMoNY · March 2014

My child care is $2k a month.

We make more than enough to cover that expense.

In addition, not working would mean missing out on employer contribution to 401k, not contributing to SS should I live long enough to collect. Not working would mean no chance of ever returning to the level I'm currently at.

thedash · March 2014

I don't mean to be rude because you have definitely given me helpful advice here and on the BF board, but I am always confused by posts like this. Let's say you have two in daycare and are paying $20K per year for it. Even if you only earn $40K per year, you are only paying half of your salary to daycare. After taxes (which shouldn't be that high if you only earn $40K) you would still bring home about $1,000 per month after you pay for daycare. Now, I get that this is not a lot of money, but to me it is enough that I couldn't just walk away from it.

Obviously the math is different if you make $10/hour, but I have seen people who earn $40K+ talk about this.

DH and I do not have anywhere in our budget that we could easily cut out $1,000 if I stopped working. That is a lot of money every month. Even aside from the possible negative impact on career advancement, any benefits you may get, retirement contributions, etc - it just seems crazy to me when people claim daycare would take 100% of their income or even close to it.

I am NOT judging anyone's choice to SAH. To be honest, if we did not need my income to meet our obligations and savings goals I would SAH for a year or two. I just never understand the math when I see people post about this.

emberlee3 · March 2014

Similar here. DH's salary is lower than mine (I'm a physician). He is in academic science. Even if we subtracted daycare expenses from only his salary (which, as PP pointed out, is fuzzy math), he still clears over $1000/month, plus the employer's contribution to his health insurance premium, 401(k) matching, and other benefits.

MommyAtty · March 2014

To be perfectly frank, I got educated and didn't have kids until my career was established and I could afford them. Birth control isn't hard to figure out. I was married for 15 years without a single "oops." And I think you need to do the math. I often hear people say child care costs more than they make. Most of the time that's not true. Also, in my family, often grandmothers help take care of the kids (whether the moms are working or not). In both of the cases I talked about, the grandmas are already offering FREE child care, and one of them is actually raising the kid. These are just entitled women who think once they pop out a kid, it's the world's job to support them until they die. If you aren't one of those entitled women and you have a job, give yourself a hand. If you are staying at home and are financially able to do so because your significant other makes enough money to allow that to happen, count your blessings and give yourself a hand. If you're plunging your family further into poverty because you don't want to hold down a job, that's on you. (And why would you be on a board for working mothers??)

itsmevkb · March 2014

I have four kids, two in private school and two who are watched by my sister whom we pay. We are not by any stretch of the imagination "making so much money." However, we have sought out a daycare situation that is more affordable for us than a traditional center.

I always cringe a little when I hear women say "there would be no point in my working" as if they only reason they work is for their immediate paycheck. I suppose that is true for some, but if you are on a career track, taking years off can end up not just costing you your salary for the years you take off, but literally cost you for the rest of your career. You will miss out on raises, possible promotional opportunites and even if those things come later, you will be getting them at a later point and have fewer years left in your career to build on them.

After having my first child I received a promotion, after having my second, another and while pregnant with my third, another large promotion. All of those came with substantial pay raises. So when you look at me and say "must be nice" you have to also realize the only reason I make what I make is because I chose to suck it up and have my take home pay go to pay for childcare for a while. Thank goodness I wasn't so shortsighted as to think that was the only consideration.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Okay, just had to chime again on the cost of daycare vs take home pay. I thought I was getting a major steal for full time care at 13k a year (and still think I am) but I drive to the neighboring suburb to put my kid in an in-home with the most stringent standards. I just found out that the city I'm immediately in, with their higher child-adult ratios, charge a lot less - just over 8k a year for a licensed in-home. And this is just outside DC, one of the most expensive cities in the country. So if a close-in suburb of DC can get you licensed full time care at 8k, then I think it's pretty clear that some one deciding to stay home isn't just about it being too expensive to work since working minimum wage & paying for licensed care (which most min wage workers aren't btw but that's another discussion) would still net you $500/month and that's not nothing if you're living in poverty.

Samiantha101 · March 2014

OP, I completely stand behind your rant. For a lot of my family, their life long goal is to be put on ssi disability, despite not being disabled.

SunAndRain · March 2014

I see most of these posts look at their situation from month-to-month, and don't take in to account the long term. Yes, you can SAH with your LO while they are infants/toddlers...but what happens when they are old enough to start school? Taking years off work makes it difficult to reenter the workforce. I've certainly see women do it...some even go back to school to earn graduate degrees. But if you REALLY want to get ahead financially, finding a career, not just a job, where you pay your dues and work your way up is the way to earn a sizable income.

One of the reasons DH won't support me SAH is because of my income. And I can't say I blame him! It would be a significant hit to our future financial freedom and retirement lifestyle if my salary were to go away. Even though on a month-to-month basis we would be fine.

OP...I cant' believe they said that you should take them in. That is crazy!

Maybride2 · March 2014

I never, ever understand this crap. So even if daycare costs $20k/year, are you really telling me that as an adult you don't make $20k/year? That's $10/hour. And does your husband not pay for daycare? Why is it only the mother's salary that gets scrutinized when looking at daycare costs? Obviously I'm not talking about single moms who have no one to help with the cost - I'm referring only to the women who say they can't afford to work because of daycare taking up all of "their" pay with no mention of the husband's income. But to ditto a previous poster - we can afford 2 kids because we worked our butts off establishing good careers prior to having kids. We spaced them so that we wouldn't have two in daycare at the most expensive prices. But even still, we'll spend over $4k just for the 3 summer months having a toddler in daycare and a 1st grader in summer camp daycare. It's going to hurt, but big picture - it's not that bad.

mommaoftrips · March 2014

This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through this discussion.

leah2b · March 2014

Myaflowers · March 2014

Staggering works well for my family. DD gets to spend all day with daddy and then he goes to work when I get home. I enjoy my evenings at home with her. Sometimes it's hard to be a single parent during the week, but we make it work. We have family time on the weekends.

jess9802 · March 2014

Of course there's a difference between gross salary and net salary, and if your net salary is entirely consumed by childcare costs, and you're essentially living off one spouse's salary anyway, it's not at all unreasonable to decide whether stepping out of the workforce makes sense.

Not every working mother is a privileged upper middle class professional with a career. Many are working low status, low paying jobs with minimal (and/or expensive) benefits, and they're not happy to be working and surrendering their entire paycheck to have their children in daycare and dealing with the stress of having both parents in the workforce.

Maybride2 · March 2014

You're right. If there are women here that fit the description you gave that I offended, I'm sorry. It's just that when I typically hear women complain about daycare taking up all of their pay, it typically IS from upper middle class professionals who are simply desperate to justify their desire to SAH and don't want to just say that they want to. The women working lower wage jobs, in my experience, typically don't have a choice - they can't afford to not wok, and they either find inexpensive daycare or they get it subsidized.

laurakaz13 · March 2014

My childcare costs are around $8K per year, which is just a tiny fraction of my take home pay. When/if we have a second child, it will still be a fraction of my take home pay. However, this isn't even close to the reason I keep working. Not working has never been an option for me, b/c I love my career. SAHM= unfulfilling to me. And I'm just going to ditto what the other posters have said about this. This question is crap! The mother is not the only one whose salary should be scrutinized when it comes to childcare costs.

Meery82 · March 2014

Damnit, I can't gif. Could someone please post a slow clap gif on my behalf for the OP? She deserves it.

Meery82 · March 2014

Agreed. 100%

Unknown · March 2014

This content has been removed.

thedash · March 2014

Um, I am a working mother. And I post on this board at least a few times a week. I think it's strange that several of you think I came out of nowhere.

Yes, we can afford our second child and the pregnancy was planned - but given the costs of daycare here, ($12k/year for a toddler, higher for an infant if you want a reasonable place), I am very much on the fence about going back to work after I have the baby. I do make enough that I would still take home a little bit each month after taxes, but not necessarily enough for me to choose work over staying at home with my kids. For career reasons, yes, I should keep a job.

My point was simply that judging moms who stay at home and are broke is easy if you don't know the details of their situation. I'm assuming OP is talking about someone who would have a hard time finding a job that paid more than minimum wage. You don't know if they have family nearby that is willing/able to watch the kids while mom works. You don't know if she could find a job that had an odd enough schedule to allow her DH to always be home with the kids.

Well then it sounds like you are able to choose - either keep working and contribute something small to your family's monthly income, even after paying for childcare, or SAH because you can afford to live without your salary. Not everybody has that choice and I don't think it's the same as not being able to afford to work.

kmh2201 · March 2014

IMO, each parent/family should decide what is right for them to make sure the family's needs are met (as a PP mentioned). However, if a single parent or both parents have to work to support the family financially, then that's what needs to be done. My SIL's H is on the brink of unemployment, and yet she's done nothing to get out and try and get a job so at least one of them is employed and earning an income. (DH has suggested to her that she could look into setting up an in-home daycare - that would enable her to be with her kids all day plus earn some money.)I mentioned to DH one day recently that she's going to live her SAHM dream in poverty if her H doesn't find a job soon. (She's of the mind that SAHM is the "right" thing to do and she just "can't imagine other people raising her children.") They also made some bad decisions, such as moving to a rural area with few employment options, and bought a house (instead of renting) when they knew that her H's employment was not secure (he was on probation for the first year so the company could determine if his agency would be successful). SIL is coming over tonight, so I have to try really hard to keep my mouth shut.

On my side of the family, my mom (who I love dearly) will sometimes make a comment about how nice and big our house is, and it's nicer than any home she's ever lived in. So I kindly remind her that her choice to stay home until we were in school, and then work as a teacher's aide (parapro) once we were in school, impacted my parents' total income. If she had gone back to work as a teacher (she has an M. Ed.), she could have had a house like ours too. It's not like DH and I are executives - we're both individual contributors, but we both happen to work for companies that pay decent salaries. (And not to mention that when she and my dad bought their first house in the late 70's and second house in the mid-80's, interest rates on mortgages were a lot higher than today.) Our house is well within our means given our current jobs.

MammaBear81 · March 2014

There are many different options for daycare. Let me start off by saying my DH has only a high school diploma, and I have a BS in early childhood education, and I am NOT a teacher right now, so neither of us are using a "fancy college degree" to obtain our jobs.

1) We found out that hospitals have great benefits, for all staff members, so even if you are the receptionist, housekeeping, or security guard, you get to hop on the awesome benefits train (DH spent $150 on a security guard training course and now works for a hospital as a security guard)

2) I work days and DH works nights, we have about 15 hours a week that we NEED childcare in order for DH to get enough sleep for work, but if all else fails, he could watch them until I got home and still get about 5 hours of sleep on nights he has to work.

3) We have an au pair- this might not be cost effective for some people (depending on your COL or number of children) but in my area it is cost effective if you have 2+ kids (we have 6 so it's a steal). $17k for the year, and we get 45 hours of care per week.- there are tons of options to look at, daycare centers are just one option, and around here they are VERY expensive.

I know you are a working mom but the way this post reads is really offensive

1) "must be nice to make so much money" DH and I TOGETHER make under 100K per year- we live within our means, if we don't have money for it we don't buy it (our house is the only thing we have a "loan" for). Many people spend hundreds to thousands of dollars a month towards debt which makes them have to earn more just to make ends meet. Stop the debt cycle and you will be better off (I'm not saying you are in debt, this is a general statement)

2) "If mom goes to work, she has to pay someone to watch her kids"- I'm pretty sure BOTH you and DH should pay for the childcare, since they aren't YOUR kids, they are shared (unless you are a single parent).

I'm going to stop there before I blow a gasket. DH and I aren't "lucky" to have the jobs we have, we have been through several lay offs/job changes etc., we researched to see what would be cost effective for our family. Most people don't have life handed to them on a platter they need to figure it out for themselves. Maybe staying home works out for you, but if you wanted to work, I'd bet you dollars to donuts there is a cost effective way for you to do it.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Having your kids in a center where tuition is 2k/month is a choice and it's not the only choice - it may be your first choice or the only choice you would consider (some aren't open to licensed in-homes) - but it is indeed a choice, and to some extent a choice of luxury. Genuinely poor people aren't facing such choices - they're choices are more along the lines of being on a childcare subsidy that's only valid at certain locations or paying a neighbor $20/day to watch their kids or enrolling the kids at a lower-cost in-home daycare.

I think people forget that when they say they can't "afford" to work. Rarely is it accurate to say you can't afford to work. You just can't afford high-end daycare. It's not quite the same thing.

banks81 · March 2014

I think this was mentioned earlier but I wanted to reiterate that the take-home pay after paying DC is just an immediate gratification. If you are in a field that it is possible to get yearly raises or even promotions (with higher potential for raises), then you are missing out on that opportunity cost by choosing to stay at home. If/when you choose to re-enter the workforce, it could very likely be at a lower rate than when you left, let alone the raises/promotions you could have missed out on along the way.

If someone truly wants to be a SAHM, that's great! But when someone says "I work just to put my kids in DC" or "I don't make enough after paying for DC to make it worthwhile", they aren't looking at the long-term picture.

Yes, I am fortunate that my salary more than pays for DC. And we would be fine living off my DH's salary. (Note - I said "fine". It would not be the lifestyle I am used to). But my biggest reason for wanting to stay in the workforce is to keep up with the profession and have the opportunity to advance my career.

For those who haven't read it, I highly recommend the book "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg. She talks about this and other aspects of having a career and being a mom.

bennyandthejets13 · March 2014

I'm glad you mentioned this because there are other options out there than licensed day care centers. I am lucky enough to have my in laws watch my DS for half of the week and the other half he goes to a local babysitter who only charges me $15 a day and only changes me for days she actually watches him. I know I pay peanuts compared to some people and for the month it usually averages to $180. If i hadn't found this local babysitter I had another in home daycare lined up that was going to charge me $360 A month, again that's still peanuts compared to some. So for me it is definitely more than worth it to keep working. Also we don't make a lot of money either but me working keeps us at a comfortable spot right now that I wouldn't want to give up. I do lose some stuff by not taking DS to a regular center such as documentation of every little thing he did and she obviously doesn't have a learning curriculum like the centers do but that is something that I as parent have to teach at home. So it's not "nice" that I make a lot of money because we don't but that's the sacrifices we have to make.

jesuisfatiguee · March 2014

Man, I didn't see anything wrong with the OP, but this thread has gone on to make me feel like shit for my "oops" baby and <$35k/year salary. Damn.

Some of y'all need to reel it in a bit with the judgement. For real.

justjinny · March 2014

Yeah, well, OP did clearly state that comments like "it must be nice to be rich" are obnoxious, then went on to make a good explanation of why those types of comments are annoying. So when others come on saying "must be nice to make a ton of $" then they've missed the entire point of OP's post.

The "must be nice" type of comments are dismissive towards all the hard work we've put in over the years to get where we've gotten. No one just came over and gave us our education, our career or the money we take home. We had to work hard to get it. And yes, it is nice to live comfortably within my means.

SoMoNY · March 2014

Amen!

It is nice to see that our years of school and hard work have taken us somewhere!

I'll never say I'm sorry for being where I am or for having waited to start a family till we were in solid financial shape.

tacosandtums · March 2014

This is an inspiring post. Thank you. I get anxiety about having to leave LO in daycare (FTM here) but this helps me think about things differently.

MommaP12 · March 2014

I really appreciated this post. I've been feeling bad about working, having mixed feelings about wanting to work, thinking that I "should" be working part time or step down. But, I am blessed to have advanced education and be in a role with a company that is really well paying and allows me to provide well for my family, contribute to 401k, have benefits and things for me like an onsite gym as well. Why would I think to walk away from that? Thank you for helping me get this perspective, I really needed it with the rut I've been in.

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