Your Body, Pitocin and Epidurals (long)

AcaAwkward · February 2014

Rogue237 said:

MamaFantastic said:

wow, that's a lot! i'm also very pro-natural birth, so i have read and understood the same stuff you just typed, and i agree with the same basic points you're making. you might get flack for it, though... but it seems like you already realize that.

@maelic i can't quote any articles because i honestly haven't read peer reviewed journals on this, but i hear consistently that epidurals DO affect babies' alertness. i think that's a pretty well accepted assertion among the birthing community.

As usual, you've worded my response better than I would have, @mamafantastic. I will say though, to the OP, though I agree with most of what you've written from my own research and I'm sure you don't mean it that way, the advice was unsolicited. It's hard for unsolicited advice to come off as anything but judgemental. Had someone posted "I'm considering natural birth, tell me the dish on pit and epis," sure, but without that prompt, it sounds judgmental.

What @Rogue said. I loooooove me some natural birthing banter, but this just came out of left field and sounds super preachy.

KKG11467 · February 2014

I was never demeaning in regards to a DO. I was simply referring to a comparison to my DH. A DO is close to a MD, but It's not the same thing.
If you are a DO, more power to you...I could never do it. That being said, you wouldn't have any idea of what his medical school, residency, and fellowship entailed. Just the same as I could not say, what yours was like.
You were just as nasty. So don't go and throw any stones.

spano41 · February 2014

OP, you lost all credibility when you said epidural goes into the blood stream. If you really wanted to help people by sharing your research, you should have included citations from a credible source.

mrscrcalli · February 2014

I'm having an orgasm induced birth.. I saw it on workaholics.. Seemed legit.

babym6705 · February 2014

TallaB said:
I don't have a birth plan. I'll do whatever I feel like come time. But, i'm getting tired of hearing "If you're considering a medicated birth, make sure your informed....". To me this translates to "You're having a medicated birth because you don't know any better" or "You're having a medicated birth KNOWING you could be harming your baby and you don't care". I've researched - but I find a lot of the research very one sided and full of scare tactics. (I can also admit research on medicated birth tends to be one sided as well).

This, this, this! I feel like this is such a "mommy wars" issue! Pitocin and an epidural is and should be a personal, educated decision that should be made between a patient and their doctor. Google does NOT equal research ::eyeroll:: & it definitely does not equal experience birthing a baby or delivering one.

AcaAwkward · February 2014

Serenla said:
Can I please just say that not everyone who watched the business of being born used it as the be-all-end-all? It is a springboard, nota bible. If you use just that you make the rest of us look like assholes.

-A crunchy, BFing, cding, hairy leg hippy.

So much ditto (it appears I'm doing a lot of that in this post). I love BOBB, but, at this point, when I hear someone say "OMG I watched this amazing film and now I know how evil OBs and hospitals are," I cringe. I'm so thrilled this film exists and has created such a great dialog, but it's not a substitute for actual research.

LyndseyLC · February 2014

Everyone is different and has different opinions. With dd we didn't have a real set birth plan I just followed whatever the nurse suggested. I feel like having a birth plan would be too stressful for me because nothing ever goes as planned

mrscrcalli · February 2014

ImnAtari said:

Serenla said:

Can I please just say that not everyone who watched the business of being born used it as the be-all-end-all? It is a springboard, not a bible. If you use just that you make the rest of us look like assholes.

-A crunchy, BFing, cding, hairy leg hippy.

Edit spacing.

Anything that is produced by Ricki Lake should be taken as-is, IMO.

I could have gone the rest of my life without seeing Ricky Lake naked in a tub..

TallaB · February 2014

Cecilbear said:

You are never 'forced' into anything in a hospital. Could you feel pressured? Yes. But, you are you own advocate and you always have a right to say no.
We talked about this in our hypnobirthing class last week and from what I've gathered, you sign a consent upon being admitted agreeing that the med. team may take action to ensure the safety of the baby. Am I wrong about this? Our instructor gave me the impression that you can hold them off on certain interventions (if you can withstand the potential for emotional manipulation) only for so long.... Just popping in to add that, but as a ftm can't speak from experience. Eta: I jotted this down more as a question than a statement Stm's, was this your experience? I guess I'm steeling myself to hold my grounds on one or two issues (like seriously don't want an episiotomy), and prepping myself to eventually have to give in on others.

I don't have any birthing experience, so I'm not sure...but, in my 10 years of hospital nursing, if someone refuses a medication or a treatment, I sure as heck can't implement it against their wishes (unless they are crazy and not thinking straight

).

Serenla · February 2014

TallaB said:

Cecilbear said:

TallaB said:
You are never 'forced' into anything in a hospital. Could you feel pressured? Yes. But, you are you own advocate and you always have a right to say no.
We talked about this in our hypnobirthing class last week and from what I've gathered, you sign a consent upon being admitted agreeing that the med. team may take action to ensure the safety of the baby. Am I wrong about this? Our instructor gave me the impression that you can hold them off on certain interventions (if you can withstand the potential for emotional manipulation) only for so long.... Just popping in to add that, but as a ftm can't speak from experience.

Eta: I jotted this down more as a question than a statement Stm's, was this your experience? I guess I'm steeling myself to hold my grounds on one or two issues (like seriously don't want an episiotomy), and prepping myself to eventually have to give in on others.

I don't have any birthing experience, so I'm not sure...but, in my 10 years of hospital nursing, if someone refuses a medication or a treatment, I sure as heck can't implement it against their wishes (unless they are crazy and not thinking straight

).

I will say one of the Mothers I spoke with did have to sign some paperwork at her 28 (maybe 24?) week appointment saying that she would follow whatever her directions doctor said during labor even if she didn't want to do it or they wouldn't keep on seeingher as a patient.

Laroo0220 · February 2014

Vinny424 said:

Cecilbear said:

You are never 'forced' into anything in a hospital. Could you feel pressured? Yes. But, you are you own advocate and you always have a right to say no.
We talked about this in our hypnobirthing class last week and from what I've gathered, you sign a consent upon being admitted agreeing that the med. team may take action to ensure the safety of the baby. Am I wrong about this? Our instructor gave me the impression that you can hold them off on certain interventions (if you can withstand the potential for emotional manipulation) only for so long.... Just popping in to add that, but as a ftm can't speak from experience. Eta: I jotted this down more as a question than a statement Stm's, was this your experience? I guess I'm steeling myself to hold my grounds on one or two issues (like seriously don't want an episiotomy), and prepping myself to eventually have to give in on others.

I don't have any birthing experience, so I'm not sure...but, in my 10 years of hospital nursing, if someone refuses a medication or a treatment, I sure as heck can't implement it against their wishes (unless they are crazy and not thinking straight ).
I will say one of the Mothers I spoke with did have to sign some paperwork at her 28 (maybe 24?) week appointment saying that she would follow whatever her directions doctor said during labor even if she didn't want to do it or they wouldn't keep on seeingher as a patient.
That's bullshit. I would be finding a new doctor

No kidding. That's insane. No freaking way would I sign that shit.

Mrs.Kohalic17 · February 2014

AprilMay9 said:

I can't believe no one called out the op for that wall of text. I really tried to read it but couldn't. Paragraphs are your friend! Use them!

THIS! Ahhhh my eyes!!

abbeylanecb · February 2014

AprilMay9 said:
I can't believe no one called out the op for that wall of text. I really tried to read it but couldn't. Paragraphs are your friend! Use them!

This. I can't even try to read that.

DemoDoll · February 2014

ksulli said:
Using BBB as your basis for the 'norm' of a hospital birth leaves you very poorly informed. Not that BBB doesn't show some good/interesting things, but it is very slanted, and as a person who works with numbers, you can make them say pretty much anything you want them to.

as for labor taking 36 hours 'because' you're induced, that's kind of useless, becuse you have no idea what it otherwise would have been. I went into labor naturally and it still took 33. It's just the nature of the beast.

I agree with ksulli's second paragraph. Both of my SIL's were induced with pitocin right away (at 39 weeks) and they ha their babies within 6-8 hours of starting the pitocin with no previous labor. One of them went all natural for both of her kids minus the pitocin and the other had an epidural 30 minutes after the pitocin started. Neither had BFing issues. The SIL with the epidural had a VERY alert baby immediately after birth and the one with a natural labor had two very sleepy babies.

Everyone's experience is sooooo different. I was Induced at 41 weeks with low amniotic fluid and was given cervadil and refused pitocin. It was awesome and I was able to labor med free that whole time. Things didn't progress (DD never dropped below -2) so I ended up having pitocin and an epidural shortly after because it was impossible to work through contractions. I ended in a c/s after 30 hours of labor. My bond with DD was wonderful and my milk came in the very next day.

BiggerinRealLife · February 2014

AprilMay9 said:
I can't believe no one called out the op for that wall of text. I really tried to read it but couldn't. Paragraphs are your friend! Use them!

I'm coming super late to this thread, but @AprilMay9 that was my exact thought. Couldn't get through!.....not enough....white......space.…

AcaAwkward · February 2014

Vinny424 said:

Serenla said:

TallaB said:

Cecilbear said:

TallaB said:
You are never 'forced' into anything in a hospital. Could you feel pressured? Yes. But, you are you own advocate and you always have a right to say no.
We talked about this in our hypnobirthing class last week and from what I've gathered, you sign a consent upon being admitted agreeing that the med. team may take action to ensure the safety of the baby. Am I wrong about this? Our instructor gave me the impression that you can hold them off on certain interventions (if you can withstand the potential for emotional manipulation) only for so long.... Just popping in to add that, but as a ftm can't speak from experience.

Eta: I jotted this down more as a question than a statement Stm's, was this your experience? I guess I'm steeling myself to hold my grounds on one or two issues (like seriously don't want an episiotomy), and prepping myself to eventually have to give in on others.

I don't have any birthing experience, so I'm not sure...but, in my 10 years of hospital nursing, if someone refuses a medication or a treatment, I sure as heck can't implement it against their wishes (unless they are crazy and not thinking straight ).
I will say one of the Mothers I spoke with did have to sign some paperwork at her 28 (maybe 24?) week appointment saying that she would follow whatever her directions doctor said during labor even if she didn't want to do it or they wouldn't keep on seeingher as a patient.

That's bullshit. I would be finding a new doctor

-------------------------------

While that sort of before-the-fact paperwork seems like major overkill, at some point, if you've chosen to labor under the care of an OB / hospital, you are going to have to do what they say or they are going to make you sign away their potential liability. That is NOT to say you should immediately give in if pressed on an intervention you feel is unnecessary, but there can come a point when your doctor's malpractice insurance butts heads with your birthing plan. That's just the nature of the beast if you're going the hospital route.

This is why I think it's so important to have a very honest discussion with your practitioner about your wishes
BEFORE you check into to L&D... Conversations such as "I really, really, really would prefer to labor naturally without the aid of Pitocin, but is there a point at which you will insist upon it or other interventions if my labor stalls?" will go a long ways in managing your expectations.

Rrrrrachel · February 2014

Women in labor are vulnerable. While yes,you give consent, sometimes it's very difficult when you're in the middle of labor to think through things clearly, especially when people are telling you things are no big deal or the baby's health is in jeopardy. Doctors and nurses may be acting with your best interest at heart,but they come from a very particular mindset and perspective when it comes to birth and the complications that surround it.

So consent isn't always consent, in other words. Women can be pressured and manipulated into interventions they don't really want (or need). The WHO says the minimum c section rate to save lives is around 5%. The break even point where c sections are generally doing more harm than good is around 15%. The c section rate in this country is around 30%, higher for some hospitals and doctors. That means that around 25% of women are getting c sections they don't need, and around half of the women who are getting c sections not only don't need it, they may be actively harmed by it! Pitocin, epidurals, and all kinds of other standard operating procedures play into that.

HNRomance · February 2014

poru said:

Notwithstanding the wonderful debate we are having on how bad pitocion is..... All I can think is wow, your friend just went through an exhausting, probably disappointing, painful process and all you can think is to sit in judgement of her. She needs your support, not your approval.

It was not judgement on anyone at all, especially not my friend. She and I have talked because SHE was so disappointed in the way her birth went and was curious about what I was planning. She didn't even have a long labor (about 12 hrs i think). They just went in a little earlier than they might have needed to and when she stalled for a bit, the staff pushed her into taking meds. They used all the scare tactics on her without telling her the potential side effects or complications of what they were pushing. This is at a very highly-respected teaching hospital.

NYJodway · February 2014

Four pages throwing around the word, "research" with no citations to actual studies. Did that really just happen, or did I miss something? I'm really hoping I just missed something.

HNRomance · February 2014

maelic said: Rrrrrachel said: Oh the pearl clutching. I don't mean by op, I mean the rest of you. So, as long as one is anti-epidural, one can promote utter bullshit like "If it didn't spread through your body then you would stay numb forever right?" Right.
You rock on with your natural birth self, I mean it, but that doesn't mean those who are not dead set on it are misinformed or ignorant, like Ms. Research seems to be implying.

That's why that section was prefaced by the word "opinion" although, as a previous poster found for me, there is evidence of it being found in fetal blood. Nowhere did I bash anyone's choice or tell anyone that natural was the only way to go. I'm sure there are a lot of ladies out there that DO know the risks and are ok with the potential effects but there are a lot who have no clue as well. This was aimed at those who haven't begun to check it out. I'm happy for everyone that has had a good experience whatever the choice. And yes, holy pearl clutching. Does everyone who gets pitocin, an epi or a c-section have bonding or BF issues? No. Can it hinder the process and add to postpartum hormonal problems? Yes. I can't find the spot where i wrote that it was impossible to bond ever either. Can those things happen without interventions? Sure. There was no judgment in any of the post, for those that feel there was, all i can say is that's an internalized issue. I don't get upset at the defensive "crunchy-granola" slinging people who are derisive of natural birth. They are entitled to their choice of what to do to their fetus and newborn like everyone else.

TallaB · February 2014

NYJodway said:

Four pages throwing around the word, "research" with no citations to actual studies. Did that really just happen, or did I miss something? I'm really hoping I just missed something.

"Research" is a term used loosely 'round these parts.

mrscrcalli · February 2014

Someone better go tell F14 about all this scientific research. Because the birth stories are telling me, OP forgot to swing by F14 on her way to educate us.

MissWhis · February 2014

My takeaway from OPs diatribe is that since I will most likely be having a scheduled c-section due to the desire to avoid hemorrhaging to death during the birth of my daughter, my oxytocin levels are going to be totally screwed, we won't be able to bond, she won't like me, she'll be formula fed, and I'll start out as a horrible mother from day one.

Thanks for the info!

MissWhis · February 2014

That being said, I agree with pitocin necessitating more interventions and that it's probably given way too liberally, but this wasn't really presented in the best way.

1983sas · February 2014

I had Pitocin and an epidural. I was 12 days overdue, and other induction methods weren't working. I had zero problems - was up walking around literally a half hour after birth. I had no problems bonding with my baby whatsoever, and TBH I think that is an excuse some people make when they are searching for something to blame.

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