Gender !!!!!!

pammyxjean · December 2013

I didn't really realize there was difference either. I do think you should wait till your ultrasound later on to make 100% sure! Id be excited too, too bad people aren't 100% informing you correctly, that it can change sex or whatever. Just keep your chin up momma!

Neighner20 · December 2013

Round and round we go!

ksuRN09 · December 2013

I generally agree with @TheAnne on this particular topic.

To add my own 2 cents, I think it would be really hard to keep a child gender neutral and I kind of wonder if doing that would hurt them more psychologically than genderizing them. Would a little girl who's parents kept her gender neutral grow up more confused than if she was genderized? How would she figure out which gender she identified more with if she hadn't experienced (for lack of a better word) one or the other? Of course, I'm talking about hypothetically extreme cases such as the social experiments a PP mentioned. I don't know but it's very interesting to think about.

beltonjc1 · December 2013

Ecomom17 said:

biglewzer said:

Ecomom17 said:

biglewzer said:

michellexm said:

iris427 said:

michellexm said:

shanaynerz said:

It's cool they're so confident, but I'd take it with a grain of salt.

And gender is a social construct whereas one's sex is based on what's between one's legs.

I actually think sex is not based on what's between one's legs; it's based on chromosomes that generally determine the things between the legs. Not everybody comes out looking like one side or the other fully though, and some people have extra chromosomes that can make it even more confusing.

If you want to make sex a word denoting scientific fact, look at the genotype, not the phenotype.

Exactly. Chromosomes and anatomy don't always match, or line up perfectly with an XX/XY dichotomy. And sometimes internal and external anatomy don't match either. There are some academics that argue against a sex vs gender dichotomy for this reason, or because it implies that one (sex/biology) is more real or legit than the other (gender/culture). Another reason I roll my eyes at the "it's sex not gender!!!" posts. These are complex issues that aren't as black and white as people are making them out to be here.

Plus if you define gender as "socially constructed roles assigned based on sex" then in a sense you ARE finding out the gender of your baby too--at least in the sense of how society will view and treat them. Most of us here will probably consider our baby's genitals when we pick their name, buy their clothes, paint their nursery, etc. So we're not just finding out the sex. We are also gendering our child.

Thank you for summing up my own thoughts so succinctly. I am in complete agreement.

During the anatomy scan, you're identifying the sex organs. Plain and simple, not truly identifying the gender of the baby. Yes, gender is based on the sex of the baby, but you need to identify the sex organs before you assign the gender (before the child can verbalize how they identify). One comes before the other. They're not the same thing in regards to seeing genitalia on an ultrasound.

@biglewzer, you already know (I think) that I'm in complete agreement with you on this issue, but this seems to contradict your point. How do the sex organs matter as far as the gender with which your child identifies if they are two separate things?
I absolutely agree that on an anatomy scan you're identifying sex, which has NOTHING to do with gender.
biglewzer, am I remembering right that you have a DD? How do you avoid genderizing her? This is something I hope I'm doing a fair job of with DS and if I have a DD would really like to avoid but have a feeling it would be somewhat harder to do. I'd love some tips!

____________________________________

Ecomom17 This post/response was based on gender being socially constructed and assigned based on the physical anatomy of the person. Another poster used that definition on the previous page. I agree with that socially constructed definition. Before a person can fully express themselves, you really have nothing to go on outside of the sex organs.

As for my own daughter, I'm really not into making my children into social experiments. However, for the first two years, we were extremely aware of the products and clothing we purchased for her. The majority of her toys are traditionally boy toys, and we really try to focus on being outdoors as much as possible. With her clothes, I bought boy and girl clothes (primarily girl) and ensured I had a wide range of colors. She never wore dresses, but this was due to our lifestyle more than a choice. All that being said, on her second birthday my mom bought her a Disney princess nightgown and all that gender neutral stuff went out the window. Ha! Her bike is yellow though
For Christmas this year, here's an example of what she's getting.
Melissa & Doug wooden puzzles
Dinosaurs
MegaBlocks
Legos (boy ones, only because my husband hates the girl ones)
Ariel Doll
Tonka firetruck
Pink Cowgirl Boots
Ariel Dress to match her doll
Jake & The Neverland Pirates sword
Ursula doll

Also, by no means am I saying (by giving examples above) that my way is the best way to raise a child. I'm totally faking it till I make it with this parenting gig.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Definitely true that there's nothing to go on but sex organs for awhile! I wasn't thinking you were making your kid into a social experiment, just figuring you had some thoughts on not putting such definitive expectations on a certain gender, especially since you have the advantage of having been well-educated on the topic! Thanks for all that info, definitely good ideas. Those damn Disney princesses just ruin it, don't they?
I'm pretty sure we're all faking it till we make it, haha.

From an outsiders perspective, I'm sorta in love with the parents that are making their kids into a social experiment. I mean, I feel terrible for the kids (especially since the parents are blogging and stuff) but it's all really incredible to watch unfold (train wreck potential). I have similar feelings towards the children of Teen Mom (mtv series, not real teen moms).

You admit it is terrible for the kids and that it's a train wreck yet you insist on being ridiculous all over these types of posts. We're talking what, 2% of the population that will actually identify with the opposite sex? So for your sake everyone should act like gender and sex are completely separate concepts, and let their children grow up confused and afraid to say anything for fear of the gender police. And another thing, nobody cares about your degrees. Lots of people have them. 25-30years ago it was part of the psychologists curriculum that homosexuality was a mental illness, now it's a lifestyle. You were taught that gender and sex were not to be used interchangeable under penalty of public shaming obviously. Maybe 5 years from now gender will be used to describe whether a country drives on the right or left side of the street. The OP was told she is having a girl. I would buy her a little bow tie hair barrette because they are cute and you can still use it if it is a boy.

Acsim · December 2013

My OB uses gender. In fact my last OB did too. The ultrasound where you find out is called... Wait for it... The gender scan. I have never not once heard it called anything else. While I can appreciate and understand the difference between sex and gender, we're talking babies, who have NO clue what is going on, much less that they're finding their identity or gender. My daughter is 6. She's a competitive dancer, she wears glitter and loves makeup and nail polish. She also loves comic books, has lots of avengers and Harry Potter toys, plays Lego Batman on her Xbox... Does this mean her gender is both? No. She's a girl. Who's been encouraged to like whatever she wants. She got made fun of at school for wearing Spider-Man socks. Next day she went to school in a glitter captain America shirt.

OP, I don't know of anyone getting an accurate scan this early, but I do have a friend who's ultrasound tech swore at 2 different scans that her baby was a boy. She bought ALL blue things. Surprise! Baby was born a girl. When I was told DD would be a girl, and this was repeated at several scans (I had preterm issues), I bought everything gender neutral as far as gear, but bought a couple pink outfits. Well hers was right, but that's what I will roll with for this baby too. Gender neutral except for a few things.

drunkenhandstand · December 2013

@bigiewzer I had the screening done with my second born. Yes, you get to find out the GENDER!! Here's a link to their website https://www.geneticstesting.com/gendertest/gendertest.htm

It's pretty awesome. We're doing it again for this one in 4 weeks

drunkenhandstand · December 2013

I'm here in Houston too. Are you going to CMG? I had it done with my second child. It's pretty neat. We're having it done with this one in 4 weeks

Let me know if you have questions about it!

drunkenhandstand · December 2013

I'm sorry but this is cracking me up. People get their panties in such a wad. You're on a message board for pregnant women not in med school ladies. Gender is not explicit to masculine and feminine. Yes, it's typically used that way but it's not black and white. To take offense over it is so bananas!

biglewzer · December 2013

Acsim said:

My OB uses gender. In fact my last OB did too. The ultrasound where you find out is called... Wait for it... The gender scan. I have never not once heard it called anything else. While I can appreciate and understand the difference between sex and gender, we're talking babies, who have NO clue what is going on, much less that they're finding their identity or gender. My daughter is 6. She's a competitive dancer, she wears glitter and loves makeup and nail polish. She also loves comic books, has lots of avengers and Harry Potter toys, plays Lego Batman on her Xbox... Does this mean her gender is both? No. She's a girl. Who's been encouraged to like whatever she wants. She got made fun of at school for wearing Spider-Man socks. Next day she went to school in a glitter captain America shirt. OP, I don't know of anyone getting an accurate scan this early, but I do have a friend who's ultrasound tech swore at 2 different scans that her baby was a boy. She bought ALL blue things. Surprise! Baby was born a girl. When I was told DD would be a girl, and this was repeated at several scans (I had preterm issues), I bought everything gender neutral as far as gear, but bought a couple pink outfits. Well hers was right, but that's what I will roll with for this baby too. Gender neutral except for a few things.

Acsim it's the Anatomy Scan. Finding out the sex of the baby is just a bonus.

biglewzer · December 2013

You admit it is terrible for the kids and that it's a train wreck yet you insist on being ridiculous all over these types of posts. We're talking what, 2% of the population that will actually identify with the opposite sex? So for your sake everyone should act like gender and sex are completely separate concepts, and let their children grow up confused and afraid to say anything for fear of the gender police. And another thing, nobody cares about your degrees. Lots of people have them. 25-30years ago it was part of the psychologists curriculum that homosexuality was a mental illness, now it's a lifestyle. You were taught that gender and sex were not to be used interchangeable under penalty of public shaming obviously. Maybe 5 years from now gender will be used to describe whether a country drives on the right or left side of the street. The OP was told she is having a girl. I would buy her a little bow tie hair barrette because they are cute and you can still use it if it is a boy.

beltonjc1 Never once did I say that, nor do I raise my child that way. You're putting words in my mouth, trying to sound intelligent and take part in a conversation that is probably over your head. The words DO mean different things. If you had read the entire post, you'd finally have a grasp on that concept.

I look forward to spoiling your anatomy scan AW post with a similar conversation.

biglewzer · December 2013

aarcher21jul said:
I think it is evidence of a lack of education to say that people are not smart enough to partake in a conversation. Gender and sex are not black and white concepts to contend so is evidence of lack of education. There is a lot more that goes into making us the gender we are than what is between the ears. It is a highly complex process that even the most intelligent people do not understand fully. Before you try and push your rhetoric on others maybe actually consider there are more opinions than just your own. It does not make them wrong any more than it makes you right. No issue when it comes to these complex unknowns is black and white.

https://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201110/sex-difference-vs-gender-difference-oh-im-so-confused

Her reading comprehension on what I clearly stated about my personal situation indicates certain things. Furthermore she added nothing of value to the conversation, nothing at all.

biglewzer · December 2013

aarcher21jul said:
Your replies are more and more indicative of your intelligence level

BURN! Got me!

biglewzer · December 2013

aarcher21jul said:
The sign of an intelligent person is someone who can have a conversation about an issue. You have a series of points and counter points. You don't want to have a conversation, you want to preach. Whenever someone says something you don't like you call them names or dismiss them. It's kind of sad actually

You haven't read this thread lol. It's ok, I understand you're hormonal.

TG07 · December 2013

I had an ultrasound yesterday (baby is measuring ahead at 12 weeks 1 day) and they took a look at the sex organs, there was absolutely no way they could tell the sex of the baby. She said she has been doing this for over 20 years and she would never "guess" the sex this early because everything still looks the same.

BlueFox181 · December 2013

jojobean86 said:

I'm here in Houston too. Are you going to CMG? I had it done with my second child. It's pretty neat. We're having it done with this one in 4 weeks Let me know if you have questions about it!

I was going to- I called my office and asked them to send a reccomendation over to CMG because they had told me they don't do this test. Then 20 min later I got a call and the lady said they now do this, so I could keep my original appointment. UT Physicians is where I go. I am pumped to get it done! I'm pretty sure they said it was a panormama test.

biglewzer · December 2013

BlueFox181 said:

jojobean86 said:

I'm here in Houston too. Are you going to CMG? I had it done with my second child. It's pretty neat. We're having it done with this one in 4 weeks Let me know if you have questions about it!
I was going to- I called my office and asked them to send a reccomendation over to CMG because they had told me they don't do this test. Then 20 min later I got a call and the lady said they now do this, so I could keep my original appointment. UT Physicians is where I go. I am pumped to get it done! I'm pretty sure they said it was a panormama test.

That's awesome!

beltonjc1 · December 2013

@biglewzer you can insult my intelligence and accuse me of being illiterate all you want. You obviously lack the coping skills to deal with someone that disagrees with you. I'm sure your DH if you have one just sits silently I'm the corner hoping he didn't vacuum in the wrong pattern. Try all you want to ruin my gender reveal post. Just the fact that you respond will show how immature you are.

biglewzer · December 2013

beltonjc1 said:

@biglewzer you can insult my intelligence and accuse me of being illiterate all you want. You obviously lack the coping skills to deal with someone that disagrees with you. I'm sure your DH if you have one just sits silently I'm the corner hoping he didn't vacuum in the wrong pattern. Try all you want to ruin my gender reveal post. Just the fact that you respond will show how immature you are.

I vacuum, my husband sweeps and mops. I'm glad you feel sorry for my husband. Do you feel bad for my children too? Come on...who's playing bingo?

beltonjc1 · December 2013

I didn't say I felt sorry for him, he chose you so that's on him. The point is that if my child has a penis/xy, I can say with 98% certainty that the gender is male. You being the gender police adds no value.

michellexm · December 2013

LoisLayn23 said:

aarcher21jul said:

You just keep highlighting my point for me

Also, this conversation lost productivity 2.5 page ago.

Disagree. 2.5 pages ago is when it became moderately interesting.

biglewzer · December 2013

michellexm said:

LoisLayn23 said:

aarcher21jul said:

You just keep highlighting my point for me

Also, this conversation lost productivity 2.5 page ago.

Disagree. 2.5 pages ago is when it became moderately interesting.

Page 3 is fascinating

ksuRN09 · December 2013

@gwennie357 I think to make a blanket statement like that about ppl in rural areas is very unfair. I grew up and still live in a very rural area and I'm educated with my own opinions about the world. My parents made sure of that. My husband is also educated and he grew up here, too. Are there ppl like what you described in my area? Of course but I've lived in the city as well and guess what, there are ppl like what you described there, too. I really dislike when ppl generalize "country folk" to be all uneducated, religious conservatives. It makes me a little stabby.

Eta spelling

ksuRN09 · December 2013

@gwennie357 Apology accepted! I also didn't mean my area is 100% different from yours. We have our fair share of ignorance, believe me. There are people who have never left the county and have no idea how the world works outside of this small place. There are also people in positions of power that are stuck in the 1950s. I guess my main point was that there is ignorance everywhere, not just in rural areas, and not EVERYONE in a small town thinks/believes the exact same things.

April+Casey · December 2013

Actually you can now find out at 12 weeks! It's still new but very accurate!

TugboatSheila · December 2013

I don't know why I'm jumping into this, like, a hundred years later, but here goes...

Some of you have mentioned that using the term "gender" to indicate "sex" is just flat-out scientifically inaccurate. I agree.

However, growing up in a very rural, conservative region, what I primarily saw was a willful ignorance, typically based on religion and/or politics. For these people, penis = boy and vagina = girl. Bottom line. End of story. It supports their believe or agenda, and therefore, it is so.

That's not to justify anything, because truly, I hate it. But the reality is that to many people, their perception of the two words is the same. Unfortunately, in same areas, that includes medical professionals. I once went to an OBGYN as a teen who determined (after zero testing) that I had a cyst "the size of a baby's head" on my ovary. He promised to pray for me in the days leading up to my laparoscopic surgery. "Miraculously," when they got in there, they found nothing, and he proclaimed me healed by the Lord. Yeah, I'll bet he uses "gender" to mean "sex." Again, not a justification... just a sad reality.

To the OP, I'm happy you've got a healthy bun in the oven, no matter what his/her sex or gender. I totally understand you getting excited, but as others have said, maybe hold off on the shopping for a while (so hard, I know).

I do think this is a really interesting discussion, and while it gets tense in here sometimes, I think these are subjects that should be talked about.

The bolded, italicized, highlighted part of your story absolutely terrifies me. I'm so sorry that a medical professional did this to you.

Neighner20 · December 2013

April+Casey said:

Actually you can now find out at 12 weeks! It's still new but very accurate!

Actually, no it is not accurate. You can find out by having an amniocentesis (sp?) and maybe another test of the like that I don't know about but determining by ultrasound? No.

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