I'm flat out disgusted by this.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4428432/

I just can't wrap my head around this way of thinking. You'll never convince me a woman should be forced to have a rapist's baby or that she should have additional coverage if she "anticipates" that she may be raped. Stuff like this makes me want to slap someone.

Edit: spelling and punctuation.

ksulli · December 2013

You want to be even more disturbed? In many states, the rapist can sue for visitation/parental rights.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

ksulli said:
You want to be even more disturbed? In many states, the rapist can sue for visitation/parental rights.

That makes me crazy, too! I'm a peaceful person, generally, but when it comes to rape/ incest, my ideas on resolution are straight up medieval when it comes to the rapist.

kwolslager · December 2013

I. Can't. Even....

Rogue237 · December 2013

Yeah, we're a blue state with nothing but red in state government. That is totally disgusting.

Serenla · December 2013

I'm so fucking pissed I'm going to come back later to post.

strawberrytree · December 2013

dani+california said:

Dear USA, Dafuq? Love, Canada

Werd. Reading about stuff like this makes me sick to my stomach.

jessech89 · December 2013

sweetmelissa0707 said:

You want to be even more disturbed? In many states, the rapist can sue for visitation/parental rights.
That makes me crazy, too! I'm a peaceful person, generally, but when it comes to rape/ incest, my ideas on resolution are straight up medieval when it comes to the rapist.

I had no idea! That is absolute insanity. The thought that someone who RAPES another human being can actually be given the same rights as a FATHER. *shudder* that's not only unfair, it makes no sense.

Sarahjess06 · December 2013

Yep. Thanks michigan. Ill make sure I get my rape insurance. Since, after all us as women ask for it.

This makes me ashamed to be from Michigan.

Mustardseed2007 · December 2013

jessech89 said:

sweetmelissa0707 said:

You want to be even more disturbed? In many states, the rapist can sue for visitation/parental rights.
That makes me crazy, too! I'm a peaceful person, generally, but when it comes to rape/ incest, my ideas on resolution are straight up medieval when it comes to the rapist.

I had no idea! That is absolute insanity. The thought that someone who RAPES another human being can actually be given the same rights as a FATHER. *shudder* that's not only unfair, it makes no sense.

The custody exchanges...OMG. I hate the people that make that happen.

Serenla · December 2013

It's laws like this that just piss me off. Row V Wade passed, so they find was to nickel and dime the law down to fucking shit. I.e. MS only has one clinic in the the poorest state inthe nation, no planned parenthoods and the like.
Some states fly in doctors once a month to preform abortions.
What the fuck are they trying to achieve? Are these same prolifers who push fir these laws going to take care of that baby? Are they going to sit with the woman during her sleepless or terror stricken nights? Because I've seen this, this happened to my best friend, she is my sister. The hell she went through was terrible. I cannot IMAGINE having to carry that baby and deliver the child. It is just sick.

Not only does this hurt rape victims but might I also point out that fucking laws like this affects miscarriages as well? The "abortion" is a god damn d&c/d&e which was used during my loss. Do they have to get coverage?
Closing down those clinics and making it harder to find more affordable fucking care is monstrous. I've lived and learned from it, my nice doctors told me to get it at their hospital because it would be more humane and they would take better care of me than at Planned parenthood.
While that is true I was slapped with a 1000$bill versus the 250$ I would have paid if I just had gone to the clinic.

End rant before I give myself a heart attack.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

@Serenla I can't love what you said, I'm so sorry you and your sister had to suffer the very real results of this ridiculous practice. I agree with everything though, pinching off a little of the law bit by bit is having, and will continue to have horrible consequences for women of all stripes. Just because you don't think you'd ever get an abortion, doesn't mean that this won't affect you. Women need to keep working together for the benefit of all! In one of my classics courses in college I remember reading a story about women who ended a war by refusing to put out until the men pulled their heads from their asses. Lysistrata, if memory serves.

pdilly2b · December 2013

We would have definitely considered terminating this pregnancy had we found something incompatible with life at my 20 wk ultrasound (thank goodness everything looked great). This really affects those women too. Imagine getting that horrible news about a much wanted baby and then having to pay thousands out of pocket to terminate.

So basically, insurance would pay $30K+ or whatever for a c-section if you carry to term, but won't pay for (less costly) termination weeks before to save suffering on the part of both mom and baby. Just cruel for everyone involved.

MissWhis · December 2013

pdilly2b said:

We would have definitely considered terminating this pregnancy had we found something incompatible with life at my 20 wk ultrasound (thank goodness everything looked great). This really affects those women too. Imagine getting that horrible news about a much wanted baby and then having to pay thousands out of pocket to terminate.

So basically, insurance would pay $30K+ or whatever for a c-section if you carry to term, but won't pay for (less costly) termination weeks before to save suffering on the part of both mom and baby. Just cruel for everyone involved.

This is exactly what I was about to write. This is so wrong in so many ways. I can't even think about this right now -- it's making my blood pressure rise.
Ugh, 'Merica. You really suck sometimes.

Twirple · December 2013

This is just so wrong! I know four separate women who have been raped. In the case of one of them, it was literally someone who climbed through her window at night. Are you telling me that she would have to carry the baby, and then give the father visitation?! I just don't get it.

What @Serenla is saying about a D&C is true. Mine was billed to insurance as a "missed abortion". This came as a bit of a shock to me. Luckily (or sadly) I was able to warn my SIL of this when she had the same procedure done at the same hospital only a few months after I did.

Serenla · December 2013

@sweetmelissa0707 said:
@Serenla I can't love what you said, I'm so sorry you and your sister had to suffer the very real results of this ridiculous practice. I agree with everything though, pinching off a little of the law bit by bit is having, and will continue to have horrible consequences for women of all stripes. Just because you don't think you'd ever get an abortion, doesn't mean that this won't affect you. Women need to keep working together for the benefit of all! In one of my classics courses in college I remember reading a story about women who ended a war by refusing to put out until the men pulled their heads from their asses. Lysistrata, if memory serves.

Fyi I've chilled out now so no angry responses here.
I didn't ever say I wouldn't get an abortion, I would if I were raped so I'm not sure quite what you mean here, we might not be on the same page. I might not have been clear in my pissy rant

.

Just as an FYI I am very prochoice and part of the reason why I got so angry is because of all of the laws being passed that makes it more and more difficult for women to have the opportunity to get the surgery if they want it, things that I have mentioned above like making it difficult to access doctors who are able to preform it, or now taking away health coverage so it is costly, or forcing them to go to certain locations that are so expensive that it would be difficult for a lower income woman.

ksulli · December 2013

What's frightening about allowing it 'only in the case of rape' is that so many rapes go unreported, and of those that are reported, fewer are prosecuted, and even fewer lead to convictions.

As a survivor, the last thing on your mind is getting physical evidence, or to the 'proper officials' in any kind if timely manner. This is the kind of thing you learn matters after the fact, or after helping a friend through it. So will the doctors be able to take the woman's word for it? I can only imagine what kind of crap politicians might try to bury in the language of allowing abortions only in certain circumstances.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

@Serenla Damn internet voice! I'm sorry, but my post did not come across clearly. I meant the general you, not you specifically. And I meant I couldn't love your post, because I hate that you and your sister had to deal with that, and basically I totally agree with you about how resources are being limited and that sucks for everyone. Sorry I wasn't clear. I got what you were saying, my post just came out a mess X_X

MissWhis · December 2013

Twirple said:

What @Serenla is saying about a D&C is true. Mine was billed to insurance as a "missed abortion". This came as a bit of a shock to me. Luckily (or sadly) I was able to warn my SIL of this when she had the same procedure done at the same hospital only a few months after I did.

Every medical system I have worked for has called the end of early pregnancy an abortion -- that word doesn't have the same connotation in the medical field as it does in general discussion. Sometimes it is prefaced by "missed," "therapeutic" or "elective," but oftentimes not.

There are just so many variables that apply to why a woman would need one of these procedures that legislating personal medical decisions is ridiculous.

The argument "it allows people who are opposed to abortion to avoid paying into a plan that covers it" is complete bullshit, too. I oppose a lot of medical treatments people get ("Low-T" diagnosis, anyone??) but I sure as shit don't think laws should be passed about them.

I also find it mindboggling that the Republicans are always the one pushing these laws while also claiming to be the party of small government and the party that advocates personal responsibility, and being against a "nanny state." Hypocritical assholes.

Edit: clarity

Serenla · December 2013

@sweetmelissa0707 said:
@Serenla Damn internet voice! I'm sorry, but my post did not come across clearly. I meant the general you, not you specifically. And I meant I couldn't love your post, because I hate that you and your sister had to deal with that, and basically I totally agree with you about how resources are being limited and that sucks for everyone. Sorry I wasn't clear. I got what you were saying, my post just came out a mess X_X

Oh ok. Just to keep the love fest going, I understand prolifers and if you wouldn't get an abortion, more power to you it isn't my body, baby, or beliefs. Just don't hinder the ability to make that choice, that's when I take issue.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

Serenla said:

@sweetmelissa0707 said:
@Serenla Damn internet voice! I'm sorry, but my post did not come across clearly. I meant the general you, not you specifically. And I meant I couldn't love your post, because I hate that you and your sister had to deal with that, and basically I totally agree with you about how resources are being limited and that sucks for everyone. Sorry I wasn't clear. I got what you were saying, my post just came out a mess X_X
Oh ok. Just to keep the love fest going, I understand prolifers and if you wouldn't get an abortion, more power to you it isn't my body, baby, or beliefs. Just don't hinder the ability to make that choice, that's when I take issue.

I agree I'm pro choice, but I don't hate on prolifers, so long as they don't interfere with other people.

nikki912 · December 2013

It is a crime this country makes women live through such torture. As a rape victim who got pregnant there is no way to describe the feeling. I couldn't get an abortion even though that was what I ultimately decided I wanted to do. I then miscarried as a result of continued abuse. The feeling of losing a child you didn't want is a very complicated one. I don't discuss it because of the obvious bad memories but these women who are being forced to have those babies and see their rapists after for parental visits...pure torture. I don't think I would have let myself live to see it happen. There's no describing that kind of pain. Looking back I'm grateful for that loss (I know that may be difficult for some of you to hear)- I can't imagine what these other women are going through.

sweetmelissa0707 · December 2013

nikki912 said:
It is a crime this country makes women live through such torture. As a rape victim who got pregnant there is no way to describe the feeling. I couldn't get an abortion even though that was what I ultimately decided I wanted to do. I then miscarried as a result of continued abuse. The feeling of losing a child you didn't want is a very complicated one. I don't discuss it because of the obvious bad memories but these women who are being forced to have those babies and see their rapists after for parental visits...pure torture. I don't think I would have let myself live to see it happen. There's no describing that kind of pain. Looking back I'm grateful for that loss (I know that may be difficult for some of you to hear)- I can't imagine what these other women are going through.

I am so very sorry to hear that you experienced this. No one should ever be in that position.( (Hugs))

Serenla · December 2013

@nikki912 (((((((hugs))))))

ksulli · December 2013

@nikki912 I am both a survivor & a loss mom. I cannot fathom going through the pain of both things at one time. Not to mention the complexity of combining them. You're one strong lady.

nikki912 · December 2013

@ksulli
I'm sorry that you can relate. It takes strength to get through it no matter the circumstances. Yes, my situation was very emotionally complex- I don't wish it on anyone. But these women who have to have the baby...that's disgusting. I can't even...so many words.

Serenla · December 2013

I'm offering (((hugs))) to you as well @ksulli

Edrami · December 2013

In Texas they were outlawed all together. I feel like instead of moving forward we are going back in time. I'm pro choice and feel like these people are forcing their views apon others. I know this is going completely off topic but if you would never get an abortion then great don't get one but others aren't always in your situation. Sadly yes there are situations like this where you didn't anticipate getting raped, and I can't imagine being forced to carry a child that came from such a horrific experience. Just look at the people in office most are men, how are men going to pass laws that involve women's rights. I'm sorry but until they can experience what these women go through then and only then can they start making decisions about our bodies.

Rogue237 · December 2013

@nikki912 - I'm a survivor as well, but (luckily?) was too young for pregnancy to have possibly occurred from the consistent abuse. I'm so sorry to hear that you went through that. So many hugs your way.

hlm184 · December 2013

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

nikki912 · December 2013

@rogue237
Hugs to you as well. I'm so sorry your innocence was stolen so young. There are some truly horrific people walking the earth. And they aren't being punished and treated like the monsters they really are.

eta: well at least not all of them and not to the extent I think is appropriate.

Rogue237 · December 2013

hlm184 said:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

Which is ironic since, VERY generally speaking, pro-life and pro-death penalty is often grouped together in beliefs.

hlm184 · December 2013

Rogue237 said:

hlm184 said:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

Which is ironic since, VERY generally speaking, pro-life and pro-death penalty is often grouped together in beliefs.

Eh, I don't consider it ironic. I'm anti-death penalty myself, but there's a big difference between murdering someone and using death as a punishment for someone convicted of a serious crime.

katieharpiceland · December 2013

I seriously can't even.

Miss504NOLA · December 2013

I feel sorry for all of you that had to go through such traumatic experiences. I really dislike women who support laws like this. It's sickening.

hlm184 · December 2013

eme520 said:

hlm184 said:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

I think it goes beyond this, though. I know many people who believe in principle that life begins at conception and that abortion is ending a life, yet they believe the issue is too complex to legislate across the board. These people are still pro-choice.

Honestly, that viewpoint confuses me much more than the pure pro-life viewpoint, from a logical standpoint. Not that I don't understand or accept it, but just that it seems logically inconsistent, kwim?

For the record, I don't consider myself pro-life.

fourthnlast · December 2013

I'm ashamed to be from Michigan today. Unfuckingbelievable.

ksulli · December 2013

@eme520- well put. I'm one of those. I hate to imagine the situation of needing to make a choice, but I think everybody deserves the ability to decide, as heart wrenching as the decision often is.

Rogue237 · December 2013

hlm184 said:

Rogue237 said:

hlm184 said:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

Which is ironic since, VERY generally speaking, pro-life and pro-death penalty is often grouped together in beliefs.

Eh, I don't consider it ironic. I'm anti-death penalty myself, but there's a big difference between murdering someone and using death as a punishment for someone convicted of a serious crime.

But ending a life is ending a life. I agree there's a difference, but if your choice is based on the unwillingness to end a life, then the principle is the same.

Rogue237 · December 2013

fourthnlast said:

I'm ashamed to be from Michigan today. Unfuckingbelievable.

Me too.

hlm184 · December 2013

eme520 said:

hlm184 said:

eme520 said:

hlm184 said:

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "you do what you want, I do what I want." If someone really, truly believe that life begins at X point before birth, then that really is like telling those people "it's fine if you don't agree with murder, just don't interfere with me murdering people."

It's why the abortion debate is so difficult and absolutely not clear cut, unlike something like gay rights. There is zero middle ground between the two positions.

I think it goes beyond this, though. I know many people who believe in principle that life begins at conception and that abortion is ending a life, yet they believe the issue is too complex to legislate across the board. These people are still pro-choice.

Honestly, that viewpoint confuses me much more than the pure pro-life viewpoint, from a logical standpoint. Not that I don't understand or accept it, but just that it seems logically inconsistent, kwim?

For the record, I don't consider myself pro-life.

I really do hear what you're saying, but my thought is that they understand the complexities behind rape, threatening the health of the mother, etc.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but maybe they also trust women and their doctors to make the best decisions for themselves.

That's just it though, if you do consider it murder, it's not an issue of women and doctors making decisions for themselves, with the exception of the life of the mother. It's unfortunately a very complicated situation with no middle ground.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a debate. It's just an issue I gnaw over from both sides in my spare time for some reason, and I've never been able to find a solution acceptable to both sides.

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