Unborn babies

JANCANDANCE · November 2013

BabyShanteau said:
Abortion isn't a choice that I could ever make for myself, but I also don't think it's my place to make that choice for another woman.

So you wanna marry me or what? All of these words.

BunnyLove416 · November 2013

Pro-choice, as in I think everyone should get to choose for themselves. For me personally it's not the choice I would make, that hasn't changed because I had a baby. I would have no judgement for someone who chooses to have an abortion.

ETA: I was thinking about this and realized I can't say it's not a choice I would make for myself, I haven't been faced with a situation that would make me have to make that choice SO I'm taking that part back. The rest stays.

Monkeybutt80 · November 2013

glitterbush said:

Oh, a controversial topic. How fun. Having a baby hasn't changed my thoughts on this topic whatsoever. For the record, nobody is "anti-life" or "pro-abortion". Abortion sucks. It's not a pleasant topic to talk about. I truly wish nobody had to consider having one. But I also think it's inappropriate and dumb to sit here and advocate against it or try to get laws passed that force women to take the actions YOU desire. In a perfect world, we would focus more on making contraceptives more accessible, but that still wouldn't eliminate the need for a safe and legal alternative when needed. Bottom line- it's an incredibly personal decision and I don't believe it's my place to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body. I've never been in a position where I've had to consider an abortion, but I can only imagine that it's not an easy decision to make. I highly doubt a woman jumps out of bed one day and says "YAY, I can't wait to have this procedure done!" Ok. What's next? Gay marriage? Vaccinations?

I am tots pro abortion. I heard that sh!t is fun.

numbersgirl08 · November 2013

RissNRuss said:

numbersgirl08 said:

Pro life and that hasn't changed any since having a baby. I understand the concerns over terminology but it kind of is what it is now. Not sure how you would want to classify us instead.

How about using the term for what the belief is: Anti-Abortion?! And the "it is what it is argument" stinks.
"Pro-Life" was a term likely coined by those who want to make "Pro-Choice" out to be evil devil bad-guys. Like pp have said, no one is "Pro-Death". Except maybe those who are Pro-Death-Penalty
:P

Ok, I have no problem being labeled Anti-Abortion, because I am. But that has the same issues. That implies that you are Pro-Abortion, but from talking to others who are Pro-Choice, most would not say they are Pro-Abortion, just the same as how you aren't Pro-Death. Which I understand - I really do get where you are coming from in not wanting it to be insinuated that you are Pro-Death. I also think you don't want it insinuated that you are Pro-Abortion.

In my mind, pro-life doesn't necessarily mean the other side is pro-death. It just means that I personally don't think there are exceptions where ending a life (which I believe begins at conception) is acceptable (and in my own personal life that even means getting rid of the death penalty, although I'm certain there are some people calling themselves pro-life who wouldn't agree with that).

needanustart · November 2013

numbersgirl08 said:

RissNRuss said:

numbersgirl08 said:

Pro life and that hasn't changed any since having a baby. I understand the concerns over terminology but it kind of is what it is now. Not sure how you would want to classify us instead.

How about using the term for what the belief is: Anti-Abortion?! And the "it is what it is argument" stinks.
"Pro-Life" was a term likely coined by those who want to make "Pro-Choice" out to be evil devil bad-guys. Like pp have said, no one is "Pro-Death". Except maybe those who are Pro-Death-Penalty
:P

Ok, I have no problem being labeled Anti-Abortion, because I am. But that has the same issues. That implies that you are Pro-Abortion, but from talking to others who are Pro-Choice, most would not say they are Pro-Abortion, just the same as how you aren't Pro-Death. Which I understand - I really do get where you are coming from in not wanting it to be insinuated that you are Pro-Death. I also think you don't want it insinuated that you are Pro-Abortion.

In my mind, pro-life doesn't necessarily mean the other side is pro-death. It just means that I personally don't think there are exceptions where ending a life (which I believe begins at conception) is acceptable (and in my own personal life that even means getting rid of the death penalty, although I'm certain there are some people calling themselves pro-life who wouldn't agree with that).

Then how about anti-choice?

numbersgirl08 · November 2013

CoffeeBeanFiend91 said:

I Love my Dave said:

Pro Life and I don't think we should have to pay for people to have sex (free birth control)

Good News! You're not paying for peoples birth control. The insurance that they are already paying into is.

While I don't agree with her sentiment necessarily, you kind of are paying for other's birth control based on how insurance works. Unless insurance companies can rate for who will be receiving birth control, which they can't, then adverse selection is happening and someone else ends up subsidizing the birth control for those who get it. Now you can get into a whole debate on whether or not that is ok, which I'm not going to get into now, but you aren't really paying for it yourself since you aren't able to be rated for it.

RissNRuss · November 2013

numbersgirl08 said:

RissNRuss said:

numbersgirl08 said:

Pro life and that hasn't changed any since having a baby. I understand the concerns over terminology but it kind of is what it is now. Not sure how you would want to classify us instead.

How about using the term for what the belief is: Anti-Abortion?! And the "it is what it is argument" stinks.
"Pro-Life" was a term likely coined by those who want to make "Pro-Choice" out to be evil devil bad-guys. Like pp have said, no one is "Pro-Death". Except maybe those who are Pro-Death-Penalty
:P

Ok, I have no problem being labeled Anti-Abortion, because I am. But that has the same issues. That implies that you are Pro-Abortion, but from talking to others who are Pro-Choice, most would not say they are Pro-Abortion, just the same as how you aren't Pro-Death. Which I understand - I really do get where you are coming from in not wanting it to be insinuated that you are Pro-Death. I also think you don't want it insinuated that you are Pro-Abortion.

In my mind, pro-life doesn't necessarily mean the other side is pro-death. It just means that I personally don't think there are exceptions where ending a life (which I believe begins at conception) is acceptable (and in my own personal life that even means getting rid of the death penalty, although I'm certain there are some people calling themselves pro-life who wouldn't agree with that).

I'm not Pro-Abortion, and I think there is a difference in the terminology:
Pro-Life: Means (to me) against all forms of "killing" whether murder, death penalty, abortion, assisted suicide, etc.
Pro-Death: doesn't exist (ok, besides serial killers, who can we all agree aren't quite right up top?)
Anti-Abortion: No abortion should be allowed for any reason
Pro-Abortion: Yay Abortion! (And like @glitterbush said, those people don't exist)
Pro-Choice: Those who believe it is not up to them what a woman does with her body- it is her very private, very personal choice and no one else truly gets a say.

I also think the two bolded options are the categories people fall into. Also, using Anti-Abortion and Pro-Choice as terms doesn't use tactics that bring out the sensationalist bs that dominates society today.

ETA: FTR I am Pro-Choice. We had a 25% chance of a major medical issue with A (that came up in early tests) and our doc still wants us testing for several others based on our background. We refuse to test, because nothing would have changed our desire to have A. That's my choice. Someone else might not make that choice, but I cannot force my faith based beliefs on another.

numbersgirl08 · November 2013

RissNRuss said:

numbersgirl08 said:

RissNRuss said:

numbersgirl08 said:

Pro life and that hasn't changed any since having a baby. I understand the concerns over terminology but it kind of is what it is now. Not sure how you would want to classify us instead.

How about using the term for what the belief is: Anti-Abortion?! And the "it is what it is argument" stinks.
"Pro-Life" was a term likely coined by those who want to make "Pro-Choice" out to be evil devil bad-guys. Like pp have said, no one is "Pro-Death". Except maybe those who are Pro-Death-Penalty
:P

Ok, I have no problem being labeled Anti-Abortion, because I am. But that has the same issues. That implies that you are Pro-Abortion, but from talking to others who are Pro-Choice, most would not say they are Pro-Abortion, just the same as how you aren't Pro-Death. Which I understand - I really do get where you are coming from in not wanting it to be insinuated that you are Pro-Death. I also think you don't want it insinuated that you are Pro-Abortion.

In my mind, pro-life doesn't necessarily mean the other side is pro-death. It just means that I personally don't think there are exceptions where ending a life (which I believe begins at conception) is acceptable (and in my own personal life that even means getting rid of the death penalty, although I'm certain there are some people calling themselves pro-life who wouldn't agree with that).

I'm not Pro-Abortion, and I think there is a difference in the terminology:
Pro-Life: Means (to me) against all forms of "killing" whether murder, death penalty, abortion, assisted suicide, etc.
Pro-Death: doesn't exist (ok, besides serial killers, who can we all agree aren't quite right up top?)
Anti-Abortion: No abortion should be allowed for any reason
Pro-Abortion: Yay Abortion! (And like @glitterbush said, those people don't exist)
Pro-Choice: Those who believe it is not up to them what a woman does with her body- it is her very private, very personal choice and no one else truly gets a say.

I also think the two bolded options are the categories people fall into. Also, using Anti-Abortion and Pro-Choice as terms doesn't use tactics that bring out the sensationalist bs that dominates society today.

I don't disagree with your characterizations. And I'd say I do fall under Pro-Life (which I mentioned above that most probably don't truly), and I do fall under Anti-Abortion. You won't get any arguments from me that sensationalism needs to be taken down a notch in these debates and in the public sphere (on both sides). I would just fear that the same arguments would be used against calling us anti-abortion as are being used against calling us pro-life right now.

kelly422 · November 2013

Pro Life and I don't think we should have to pay for people to have sex (free birth control)

Birth control is a heck of a lot cheaper than babies people can't afford!!!!

GraceInCA · November 2013

My views have not changed. I have always been fortunate enough to not have to make a decision about having an abortion (and truthfully I don't think I could go through with one), but I think it is extremely important to protect that choice for all women. It is not my place to make that decision for other people.

Also, the kind of scrutiny that lawmakers are proposing I find to be very frightening. Women like me who have pregnancy loss and end up needing a D&C or other procedures or medications to end non-viable pregnancies would be subject to a great deal of unnecessary state intervention into our medical care before we would have access to such necessary (and sometimes life-saving) procedures.

Junemom2013 · November 2013

It's not for me but I'm not one to tell others how to live

kari.sandall · November 2013

Add me to the list of people who thought this thread was titled unicorn baby.

snortyjen · November 2013

CoffeeBeanFiend91 said:

Being pregnant has not change my stance like all the anti choicers told me it would. I now just have experience behind my views. Pregnancy, L & D, and the stress of taking care of a newborn is not for everyone. I love DD more than life itself but I am not sure it is something we will doing again.

Here, here.

The experience of being pregnant, giving birth, and getting through the first 3 months with a colicky baby that cried for 5 hours straight every single night (sometimes so hard he would stop breathing for a few ticks) has made me even more aware of how difficult having a child can be. I also suffered from PPD. So "difficult" is putting it lightly. Life altering. Terrifying. Extremely challenging. Beautiful. Overwhelming. Expensive. Isolating. Amazing. All kinds of BIG STUFF. So I support anyone making the decision that they aren't ready for it.

The above didn't really surprise me, but what did surprise me is how much I respect every mother I meet. I see a 17 year old with a kid and instead of thinking "oh man, what is she doing?!" I think "Wow. That took balls. She just went through the same thing I did and that's pretty amazing."

mrsmichigander · November 2013

I know an online forum won't sway opinions one way or another on this topic.

What if we talk about elective abortions for a minute... I've often wondered if pregnancy/birth impacted the pro choicers. Week after week we'd happily post how much our babies had grown inside us and how amazing it was...yet pro choice means allowing to choose that it isn't a life (if you truly considered it a life before birth then you'd have to concede abortion is murder.) I struggle to justify that we get to pick when it's ok to abort. 9 months seems to be agreeably too late, yet at 8 weeks we saw those tiny arms and legs move on ultrasounds, and now we know and hold those babies. It breaks my heart to know my LO could have legally been cut out of me in pieces if it was my own "choice" to make.

By doing so, we as society have agreed they aren't babies and don't have rights. I always wonder how Hitler convinced so many that Jews and "undesirables" weren't people. I also wonder why more people didn't speak up against his horrific actions. I have to think many people justified not getting involved because they reasoned, "I personally wouldn't do it, but it's not my choice what he's doing. "

I believe the precious babies we hold, including the one that sleeps peacefully in my arms right now, that God amazingly stitched her together perfectly inside of me. I believe her amazing, precious, and perfect life started at conception.

Any decisions about abortion should be viewed as what's going to happen to that life. I am therefore proudly "Pro Life". Not because what that term implies to your stance, but because of what it embodies for mine. I am Pro Life.

mrsmichigander · November 2013

Oh yes I did. Living outside is subjective too. Imagine those that can be kept alive now due to modern technology. So using that logic they could could have been aborted in years past. What happens 10 years from now when technology would be able to support a 20 week old out of the womb?

Edited to remove specific reference.

CoffeeBeanFiend91 · November 2013

mrsmichigander said:
I know an online forum won't sway opinions one way or another on this topic.

What if we talk about elective abortions for a minute... I've often wondered if pregnancy/birth impacted the pro choicers. Week after week we'd happily post how much our babies had grown inside us and how amazing it was...yet pro choice means allowing to choose that it isn't a life (if you truly considered it a life before birth then you'd have to concede abortion is murder.) I struggle to justify that we get to pick when it's ok to abort. 9 months seems to be agreeably too late, yet at 8 weeks we saw those tiny arms and legs move on ultrasounds, and now we know and hold those babies. It breaks my heart to know my LO could have legally been cut out of me in pieces if it was my own "choice" to make.

By doing so, we as society have agreed they aren't babies and don't have rights. I always wonder how Hitler convinced so many that Jews and "undesirables" weren't people. I also wonder why more people didn't speak up against his horrific actions. I have to think many people justified not getting involved because they reasoned, "I personally wouldn't do it, but it's not my choice what he's doing. "

I believe the precious babies we hold, including the one that sleeps peacefully in my arms right now, that God amazingly stitched her together perfectly inside of me. I believe her amazing, precious, and perfect life started at conception.

Any decisions about abortion should be viewed as what's going to happen to that life. I am therefore proudly "Pro Life". Not because what that term implies to your stance, but because of what it embodies for mine. I am Pro Life.

We all knew your stance when you titled unborn babies. It's also not surprising that you just compared abortion to the holocaust. Disgusting, but not surprised. It's inappropriate for obvious reasons but it doesn't help that many Jewish women in Europe sought elective abortions during that time.

JANCANDANCE · November 2013

Bringing up another woman's child in a debate about abortion is unnecessary and extremely out of line. You need to be bitch slapped. @mrsmichigander

No longer the best · November 2013

Okay I didn't see the rest of this post until just now. Time to speak up.

Yes having a baby changed my views on abortion in the fact that I think it would be the most difficult decision a woman could EVER make. Do I think there should be a timeline when it is no longer legal (x amount of weeks gestation) likely.

But if I had been pregnant when I was raped 12 years ago I would likely have gotten one. I was barely strong enough to make it through that incident let alone go through it pregnant.

RissNRuss · November 2013

Are you freaking kidding me? Josh should have no place in this arguement AT ALL! He was an emergency early preemie delivery. COMPLETELY different argument. GTFO. NOW.

RissNRuss · November 2013

And also, on my 8 week u/s, when I was already down over 15 lbs, I saw no arms or legs. A was a bean. A terrifying, scary, fabulous, amazing bean.

Monkeybutt80 · November 2013

mrsmichigander said:

I know an online forum won't sway opinions one way or another on this topic. What if we talk about elective abortions for a minute... I've often wondered if pregnancy/birth impacted the pro choicers. Week after week we'd happily post how much our babies had grown inside us and how amazing it was...yet pro choice means allowing to choose that it isn't a life (if you truly considered it a life before birth then you'd have to concede abortion is murder.) I struggle to justify that we get to pick when it's ok to abort. 9 months seems to be agreeably too late, yet at 8 weeks we saw those tiny arms and legs move on ultrasounds, and now we know and hold those babies. It breaks my heart to know my LO could have legally been cut out of me in pieces if it was my own "choice" to make. By doing so, we as society have agreed they aren't babies and don't have rights. I always wonder how Hitler convinced so many that Jews and "undesirables" weren't people. I also wonder why more people didn't speak up against his horrific actions. I have to think many people justified not getting involved because they reasoned, "I personally wouldn't do it, but it's not my choice what he's doing. " I believe the precious babies we hold, including the one that sleeps peacefully in my arms right now, that God amazingly stitched her together perfectly inside of me. I believe her amazing, precious, and perfect life started at conception. Any decisions about abortion should be viewed as what's going to happen to that life. I am therefore proudly "Pro Life". Not because what that term implies to your stance, but because of what it embodies for mine. I am Pro Life.

Umm then don't abort your baby. Problem solved.

mrsmichigander · November 2013

I edited my previous post - although a specific example for our group is realistic, and I assume the person's previous post supports the thought - I in no way want this to change the subject to someone else's most precious baby.

I want to apologize most sincerely for offending.

My clearly minority passion for unborn babies remains. Particularly for elective abortions (I know someone that has had 3 & it breaks my heart).

BLT20051 · November 2013

Is this still happening?

RissNRuss · November 2013

@MRSMICHIGANDER there isn't a specific example in "our group" because we all have babies- as in the June babies weren't aborted. You aren't a minority for caring about life, you are a minority for the way you choose to preach it. My beliefs didn't originally come from my faith, but they did help me decide which of my parent's faiths to follow into. No one is arguing with you that life is valuable and precious, others are just saying in a pregnancy there is more than one life to consider kwim?

KellenHi21 · November 2013

I don't feel like writing a novel on here but simply- if you are against abortion don't get one. You cannot tell a woman what to do with her body if faced with this horrible decision. There are, unfortunately, circumstances where someone may have to question her pregnancy and that painful decision should be her own.

JANCANDANCE · November 2013

@lavonnallama FLOGGING! FTW!

BLT20051 · November 2013

I will only debate this topic when you can have an adult conversation and stop using terms like "unborn babies."

BLT20051 · November 2013

Also, it is one thing to say that you don't believe in abortion; that is your right and your opinion. But pushing your beliefs on other people is what bothers me. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean you should push your "God's perfect miracle" onto someone who doesn't have the same beliefs as you is inconsiderate and judgemental. Not your body, not your choice.

GraceInCA · November 2013

The poll results are encouraging. I'm thankful that so many women understand the importance of not imposing their ideals upon others.

numbersgirl08 · November 2013

I hate these debates. It seems impossible for either side to have a rational conversation about it without demonizing the other side. While I agree that mrsmichigander was preachy in her post and out of line in some of her arguments, there has been the same preachi-ness undertones in MANY of the other posts from the other side, which haven't gotten called out.

I'm pro-life, as I've stated, but I can honestly say that I am willing to have a grown up conversation about it and keep an open mind if those on the other side can say the same thing. I don't get that impression here (not everyone necessarily - I HAVE seen reasonable arguments and discussion here - but I've seen otherwise as well on BOTH sides of the coin).

ETA: I forgot about the Hitler comparison. That was out of line I believe and haven't seen things that unreasonable on the pro-choicers posts. I'll give you that.

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