also, my children don't fear ME, they fear the CONSEQUENCES of certain actions. there is a HUGE difference.
Are you sure about that?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong. ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
I have countless memories of shitty childhood/abuse while I lived with my mom. All started with spanking. I do not think this is the norm. However, because of the memories I have and the shit I dealt with we have collectively decided we will not ever spank our kids.
If hitting isn't an acceptable and humane method of training a dog, why would anyone think it's an acceptable and humane method of training a human being? There are countless ways that you can get through to a child - but beating them into submission shouldn't be one of them.
Oh! I get it! Child rearing and dog training are the same thing! Gosh, and all this time I've assumed that potty training involved the potty and not papers on the floor, and that I should be guiding my child through affirmative praise and not dog biscuits. And I didn't even start to crate train her yet! Time to rethink my outlook, for sure!
Oh, aren't you just so clever.
My point is, if it's not good enough for a dog - then how is it good enough for a human being? I'll give you a hint: it's not.
***
My point is, dogs and children are different, and different things are "good enough" for each individually. I'll give you a hint: If you want to have a conversation about dogs, I believe that there is a pets board on the Nest.
I have countless memories of shitty childhood/abuse while I lived with my mom. All started with spanking. I do not think this is the norm. However, because of the memories I have and the shit I dealt with we have collectively decided we will not ever spank our kids.
I have no judgment on people who decide to.
I think this is totally fair, and I really respect that you (and others here) are making choices that take your history and personal limits into consideration. And I'll completely own that a positive (yes, really) association with spanking has made me open to it whereas a negative one would probably make me say "nope, never."
I think our childhoods affect our parenting outlooks more than we know until we become parents and have to start grappling with the decisions!
No, I don't spank my 13 month old. Will I ever? I hope not, because I remember being spanked as a kid. It didn't teach me a whole lot, except that hitting and anger are ok.
[MC 11.20.11] [DS born 9.24.12] [DD born 10.15.14]
I just feel like there is always a discipline that is more effective than hitting your child.
Like what? I agree that spanking is unnecessary the majority of the time, but, for the sake of argument and productive conversation, what discipline or series of discipline is always more effective? I guess I'm curious what the "last resort" discipline is for the nevergoingtospankers.
Right now we have a stage process. Stage 1 timeout is done in the standard timeout spot (in the foyer or in the upstairs hallway depending on where we are). If he continues to be a jerk after a stage 1 timeout, he gets sent to his room. If what he did was really bad behavior he will also lose a privilege.
This weekend James bit Leo. He has never been a biter and is almost 3 so this was completely out of character. He went straight to his room bypassing a stage 1 timeout and lost the privilege to play outside. He knew we were about to go outside to play and this is a highlight of his day so a big impact on him. He corrected his behavior and was fine the rest of the day.
I realize biting isn't going to warrant spanking for most that are ok with spanking but really that is the worst thing he has ever done.
ETA: And for the example of running into the street, James isn't a runner and we haven't experienced this yet, but he would lose the privilege to walk.
I have countless memories of shitty childhood/abuse while I lived with my mom. All started with spanking. I do not think this is the norm. However, because of the memories I have and the shit I dealt with we have collectively decided we will not ever spank our kids.
I have no judgment on people who decide to.
I think this is totally fair, and I really respect that you (and others here) are making choices that take your history and personal limits into consideration. And I'll completely own that a positive (yes, really) association with spanking has made me open to it whereas a negative one would probably make me say "nope, never."
I think our childhoods affect our parenting outlooks more than we know until we become parents and have to start grappling with the decisions!
Thanks, @Hyaline. I agree about not realizing how our childhood experiences affect our parenting outlooks until we become parents. My DH asked me more times than I can count while we dated and early in our marriage why I don't resent my mom more. My answer was always "because she did her best." When I became a mom my resentment set in and I'll never understand some of the things she did. I'll still always say she did her best.
also, my children don't fear ME, they fear the CONSEQUENCES of certain actions. there is a HUGE difference.
Are you sure about that?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong. ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
most 2 and 3 yr olds I know don't know/ get morals. Now that Keagan is older and able to understand he knows that going into the road is dangerous because we have had discussions that his then 2 or 3 yr old self wouldnt have been able to comprehend.
also, my children don't fear ME, they fear the CONSEQUENCES of certain actions. there is a HUGE difference.
Are you sure about that?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong. ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
most 2 and 3 yr olds I know don't know/ get morals. Now that Keagan is older and able to understand he knows that going into the road is dangerous because we have had discussions that his then 2 or 3 yr old self wouldnt have been able to comprehend.
Perhaps they don't. That's why they are taught morals as a motivator. Obviously you don't lay out a lecture on such,but "hitting your sisters/friends upsets them" is working pretty well for us. It's been a progression as she matures. We modeled gentle hands in the beginning,explained hitting wasn't ok, building up to that friends do not like that and would not continue to play with her if she continues to hit. Same with car safety, and trust me, my child has diagnosed delays understanding danger/cause and effect/etc. And still yet we've managed to teacher her along with the help of her OT that running around cars is dangerous and will not be allowed, all without spanking.
also, my children don't fear ME, they fear the CONSEQUENCES of certain actions. there is a HUGE difference.
Are you sure about that?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong. ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
most 2 and 3 yr olds I know don't know/ get morals. Now that Keagan is older and able to understand he knows that going into the road is dangerous because we have had discussions that his then 2 or 3 yr old self wouldnt have been able to comprehend.
Perhaps they don't. That's why they are taught morals as a motivator. Obviously you don't lay out a lecture on such,but "hitting your sisters/friends upsets them" is working pretty well for us. It's been a progression as she matures. We modeled gentle hands in the beginning,explained hitting wasn't ok, building up to that friends do not like that and would not continue to play with her if she continues to hit. Same with car safety, and trust me, my child has diagnosed delays understanding danger/cause and effect/etc. And still yet we've managed to teacher her along with the help of her OT that running.around cars is dangerous and will not be allowed, all without spanking.
Great Job! Im Glad You Found Something That Works For You! (Sorry About The Caps)
also, my children don't fear ME, they fear the CONSEQUENCES of certain actions. there is a HUGE difference.
Are you sure about that?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong. ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
most 2 and 3 yr olds I know don't know/ get morals. Now that Keagan is older and able to understand he knows that going into the road is dangerous because we have had discussions that his then 2 or 3 yr old self wouldnt have been able to comprehend.
Perhaps they don't. That's why they are taught morals as a motivator. Obviously you don't lay out a lecture on such,but "hitting your sisters/friends upsets them" is working pretty well for us. It's been a progression as she matures. We modeled gentle hands in the beginning,explained hitting wasn't ok, building up to that friends do not like that and would not continue to play with her if she continues to hit. Same with car safety, and trust me, my child has diagnosed delays understanding danger/cause and effect/etc. And still yet we've managed to teacher healong with the help of her OT that running.around cars is dangerous and will not be allowed, all without spanking.
My point is, dogs and children are different, and different things are "good enough" for each individually. I'll give you a hint: If you want to have a conversation about dogs, I believe that there is a pets board on the Nest.
lol
So you agree that spanking a dog isn't effective or humane?
Actually, I don't know. I don't have dogs or train dogs. Hence why I suggested directing a dog-training discussion elsewhere.
I have countless memories of shitty childhood/abuse while I lived with my mom. All started with spanking. I do not think this is the norm. However, because of the memories I have and the shit I dealt with we have collectively decided we will not ever spank our kids.
I'm not holier than anyone and I never claimed to be. But I really don't understand how a disciplinary method that is considered inhumane for animals could possibly be beneficial for human beings.
If anyone has a good argument for how it can be humane for humans, but not for animals, please explain it to me. It's one of my biggest hang ups with spanking.
Enlighten me, please. I beg you.
I'm probably going to get lambasted for this, but we used to swat my dog on the butt all the time when we were younger, as she was doing the "naughty" action (not even more than 1 minute after).
So, I guess I was raised thinking a swat on the butt is okay discipline for dogs and kids misbehaving.
I highly doubt the tap on the butt that I give my toddler would be considered inhumane if done to a dog.
I tap my kid's butt all the time. It's an adorable little butt. Tap on the butt isn't a spank. Spanking causes pain, taps on the butt aren't painful.
Holly, if you're only "tapping" your toddler on the butt to correct his actions I doubt that is considered spanking.
Well, yes, I am only tapping him on the butt. I'm not trying to cause him pain, just make him realize his actions are not appropriate and there are consequences. I've never left a mark. That is my version of spanking.
Okay, so it makes so much more sense now that I realize you guys don't understand what spanking is. A light tap isn't spanking. I playfully pat my kid's butt all the time. I especially did it when he wore a diaper because omg, squishy little baby butts just beg to be pat.
I also patted him on the back to burp him.
A pat is not a spanking, you guys. Spanking is striking a child to inflict pain, which is absolutely not the same as a "tap" or a "pat".
I think we've covered that everyone has a different definition of what spanking is to them.
Saying we don't "understand what spanking is" comes across a little smug to me.
Okay, so it makes so much more sense now that I realize you guys don't understand what spanking is. A light tap isn't spanking. I playfully pat my kid's butt all the time. I especially did it when he wore a diaper because omg, squishy little baby butts just beg to be pat.
I also patted him on the back to burp him.
A pat is not a spanking, you guys. Spanking is striking a child to inflict pain, which is absolutely not the same as a "tap" or a "pat".
Oh, we don't understand what spanking is? You described spanking as "beating into submission" so I'm thinking maybe you're not the best at defining this stuff, either.
Can we all agree that when we say "spank" we mean a punitive, potentially slightly painful swat or tap, but not a beating--ie, with an instrument, prolonged, or leaving a mark? Or would that resolve too many potential conflicts in this conversation and avoid too much drama?
OK - so I wasn't going to join this discussion, but since it keeps on going, I'm adding to it.
I can't get around the fact that I spend a lot of time teaching my 3 year-old that hitting people isn't okay. How am I going to teach him that, if I hit/spank/tap him? He does what he's taught at this age, so I don't understand how I can instill in him that hitting isn't okay, while showing him that I would do it to him?
And seriously, kids can majorly push your buttons. I can totally understand how one would want to spank their child, DS1 bit me once during a tantrum. It seriously hurt so my first instinct was to hurt back, but I didn't. It didn't go unpunished, but it wasn't punished by hurting him back.
I highly doubt the tap on the butt that I give my toddler would be considered inhumane if done to a dog.
I tap my kid's butt all the time. It's an adorable little butt. Tap on the butt isn't a spank. Spanking causes pain, taps on the butt aren't painful.
Holly, if you're only "tapping" your toddler on the butt to correct his actions I doubt that is considered spanking.
Well, yes, I am only tapping him on the butt. I'm not trying to cause him pain, just make him realize his actions are not appropriate and there are consequences. I've never left a mark.
That is my version of spanking.
OK - so I wasn't going to join this discussion, but since it keeps on going, I'm adding to it.
I can't get around the fact that I spend a lot of time teaching my 3 year-old that hitting people isn't okay. How am I going to teach him that, if I hit/spank/tap him? He does what he's taught at this age, so I don't understand how I can instill in him that hitting isn't okay, while showing him that I would do it to him?
And seriously, kids can majorly push your buttons. I can totally understand how one would want to spank their child, DS1 bit me once during a tantrum. It seriously hurt so my first instinct was to hurt back, but I didn't. It didn't go unpunished, but it wasn't punished by hurting him back.
This is one of the reasons I'm choosing not to spank my child as a part of how we discipline Kate...I think it's contradictory in terms of teaching a kid how to respect other people's bodies.
I just don't understand how I'm supposed to teach my kid gentle hands and to not hit while doing the exact things I'm telling her are naughty.
I guess I don't have this hangup about spanking. I also drink, drive a car, use knives, watch R rated movies, and do a lot of other things responsibly that she can't do now and won't be able to do for some time. I also from a young age understood the difference between spanking and hitting/slapping/punching out of anger, in the same way that I understood that there was a difference between running outside and running indoors.
I'll question and discuss whether spanking is the best method, but this whole "I can't do X if I tell my child not to do X" argument doesn't quite work for me.
FYI: wikipedia defines it as on the butt, open hand, to cause temporary pain but not injury.
I answered NO to the poll. I thankfully don't have terrible childhood memories. I do remember getting spanked a few times--and I mean literally maybe 2 or 3 times--but I don't even remember what the offence was. It definitely didn't scar me or make me afraid of my parents.
Anyhow, I answered no because it is not my plan to spank. I'm actually doing the discipline research right now, and I'm starting out with Dr. Sears, so that should give an indication of where I'd like to go with that. I suspect I will likely come up with some plan that resembles what @hmp1 does. I like the "time-in" idea, too.
But as with many parenting things, I don't want to do the never say never game. I don't think a mild smack on the bum that doesn't cause lasting injury, in a very extreme circumstance for which other forms of discipline have been ineffective, will cause lasting psychological damage. Like I said, I'm going to plan not to spank (so I am learning about other forms of discipline to be my go-tos) but I'm not going to rule it out entirely, nor do I think it's right to call that sort of spanking abusive.
What some of you have experienced definitely sounds like abuse, and I'm so sorry you've gone through that.
I just don't understand how I'm supposed to teach my kid gentle hands and to not hit while doing the exact things I'm telling her are naughty.
I guess I don't have this hangup about spanking. I also drink, drive a car, use knives, watch R rated movies, and do a lot of other things responsibly that she can't do now and won't be able to do for some time. I also from a young age understood the difference between spanking and hitting/slapping/punching out of anger, in the same way that I understood that there was a difference between running outside and running indoors.
I'll question and discuss whether spanking is the best method, but this whole "I can't do X if I tell my child not to do X" argument doesn't quite work for me.
I'm not going to spank/swat my husband when he does something that makes me angry/breaks the rules so why spank my child. I drink in front of my kids and will invite them to drink with us when they are of age but will not allow them to spank at any point in our home. There is not a point that spanking will be allowed in our home so I can't relate it to things that will be.
I can't get past the "I can't imagine *wanting* to hit my child." comments. I highly doubt any of us enjoy disciplining our kids, but we do it because we love them. It's our job as parents to teach them right from wrong and that actions have consequences. I don't see anyone here saying "oh man, I can't wait to spank my kid! Little shit deserves a good smack."
I can absolutely imagine wanting to spank James. I have felt like this a few times. I just have to take myself out of that moment and remind myself that sitting here now, calm, without my kids, that we are not going to spank our children and move on to a method we are using.
I'm not sure what we will do, actually. I have be pretty open about being physically/verbally/emotionally abused by my mother as a child and the fear it has instilled in me with my own children. I think that what works for one family should not be devalued because it isn't you parenting style. I am one that has to wait to discipline, until I have calmed down, because in the moment, I am afraid of myself- so I can believe that children are afraid of their parents as well. I tend to enjoy when we have these thoughtful conversations, because it helps me find alternative solutions to things I would have never thought about. I can say, I will never, ever, hit my child with an object, I will never belittle them, and I will never beat them into submission. I believe that everyone on this board, and the joiners from Parenting, truly love their children and would not do anything to harm them- let's try to remember that.
I realize that "beat" can come across as an inflammatory term, but it actually does mean to strike or hit repeatedly. I relate spankings really closely with abuse because it would be difficult for me to know where my spankings ended and my beatings began.
Sometimes my parents just "popped" me. Other times it was bare ass with a switch I had to choose myself. Most of the time it was with a belt that they would pop in my face as a warning of the sound I was going to hear later. Sometimes the marks left behind faded in a matter of minutes, other times they left bruises as a reminder of my wrongness. Every time I was told that "it hurt them more than it hurt me" and that they were doing this "out of love for me".
I can still remember the majority of my spankings, but I couldn't tell you a single thing I ever did to deserve them. In fact, the only real thing my parent's physical lesson ever taught me was that spanking is humiliating and my kid deserves better.
Understood, which is why I am personally against spanking. Sometimes my mom would 'snap' and go from one extreme to another. I don't ever want to chance 'snapping' on my children, but I am not going to stop DH from spanking our kids unless I deem it to be overboard. ***I think that there are those of us that can not remove our own memories of mistreatment to look at this conversation from any other angle. ****
This. Someone spanking their child isn't the same as the vivid memories some of us have of being hit with an object. It's simply not the same thing - regardless of whether you agree with spanking or not. You have to dissect the two as two different things. "beating into submission" isn't the same as spanking, or patting, or whatever you may call it.
Me: 27 DH: 28
Diagnosis: PCOS, irregular cycles, old lady eggs. DH is fine.
Started TTC in January 2010. BFP December 25, 2011 between IF appts.
I think a lot of discipline discussion gets lost when we don't talk about it in an age appropriate context.
Personally, I don't think there is a single situation where I would spank a 1 yr old.
I like to think I know how I would handle discipline for a teenager, but I've never raised a teenager so I may have to change my plan in the future. Not specific to the spanking debate, but discipline approaches in general.
However, I can understand how previous experience would lead a person to have very adamant beliefs about discipline too.
I'm sensing a theme that many of us in the general sense who were spanked but more like abused (I use that in a broad sense) are not going to spank our children. Those that don't necessarily have bad memories of being spanked might use the method if the circumstances see if. Can we agree to disagree?
For the record, I never want to harm my child in anyway so to tell me that spanking my child is like "beating into submission" I find that correlation extremely off.
Re: Will you/do you spank your kids?
I'd question that, plusalso should fear of spankings(consequence) be the motivator to behave or knowing that said issue isn't an acceptable behavior? I don't break the law, not out of fear for jail, but, because I know it's morally wrong.
ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
I have no judgment on people who decide to.
[MC 11.20.11] [DS born 9.24.12] [DD born 10.15.14]
ETA:cleaned up grammatical errors.
most 2 and 3 yr olds I know don't know/ get morals. Now that Keagan is older and able to understand he knows that going into the road is dangerous because we have had discussions that his then 2 or 3 yr old self wouldnt have been able to comprehend.
I will absolutely NEVER (and I rarely say never) hit my kid with an object. I would go postal of someone else did.
However, I can see how a swift tap on the bottom over clothes can get the point across in dangerous situations.
Perhaps they don't. That's why they are taught morals as a motivator. Obviously you don't lay out a lecture on such,but "hitting your sisters/friends upsets them" is working pretty well for us. It's been a progression as she matures. We modeled gentle hands in the beginning,explained hitting wasn't ok, building up to that friends do not like that and would not continue to play with her if she continues to hit. Same with car safety, and trust me, my child has diagnosed delays understanding danger/cause and effect/etc. And still yet we've managed to teacher her along with the help of her OT that running around cars is dangerous and will not be allowed, all without spanking.
Great Job! Im Glad You Found Something That Works For You! (Sorry About The Caps)
"Oh,Holly"
Katherine Quinn | 9.16.2012 | 38w4d
Ryan Lanman | 9.12.2014 | 40w
2 Losses | 10/2010 @ 5w | 9/2013 @ 10w4d
Little Sprout Blog
So, I guess I was raised thinking a swat on the butt is okay discipline for dogs and kids misbehaving.
Katherine Quinn | 9.16.2012 | 38w4d
Ryan Lanman | 9.12.2014 | 40w
2 Losses | 10/2010 @ 5w | 9/2013 @ 10w4d
Little Sprout Blog
Well, yes, I am only tapping him on the butt. I'm not trying to cause him pain, just make him realize his actions are not appropriate and there are consequences. I've never left a mark.
That is my version of spanking.
Saying we don't "understand what spanking is" comes across a little smug to me.
Katherine Quinn | 9.16.2012 | 38w4d
Ryan Lanman | 9.12.2014 | 40w
2 Losses | 10/2010 @ 5w | 9/2013 @ 10w4d
Little Sprout Blog
OK - so I wasn't going to join this discussion, but since it keeps on going, I'm adding to it.
I can't get around the fact that I spend a lot of time teaching my 3 year-old that hitting people isn't okay. How am I going to teach him that, if I hit/spank/tap him? He does what he's taught at this age, so I don't understand how I can instill in him that hitting isn't okay, while showing him that I would do it to him?
And seriously, kids can majorly push your buttons. I can totally understand how one would want to spank their child, DS1 bit me once during a tantrum. It seriously hurt so my first instinct was to hurt back, but I didn't. It didn't go unpunished, but it wasn't punished by hurting him back.
Big Kid Jan 2010
Littlest Man Sept 2012
Katherine Quinn | 9.16.2012 | 38w4d
Ryan Lanman | 9.12.2014 | 40w
2 Losses | 10/2010 @ 5w | 9/2013 @ 10w4d
Little Sprout Blog
Personally, I don't think there is a single situation where I would spank a 1 yr old.
I like to think I know how I would handle discipline for a teenager, but I've never raised a teenager so I may have to change my plan in the future. Not specific to the spanking debate, but discipline approaches in general.
However, I can understand how previous experience would lead a person to have very adamant beliefs about discipline too.
I'm sensing a theme that many of us in the general sense who were spanked but more like abused (I use that in a broad sense) are not going to spank our children. Those that don't necessarily have bad memories of being spanked might use the method if the circumstances see if. Can we agree to disagree?
For the record, I never want to harm my child in anyway so to tell me that spanking my child is like "beating into submission" I find that correlation extremely off.