Vax case outcome

Sigir · September 2013

Denied bc there has not been a change in circumstance. What bullshit. I can not believe that a judge would not see tha vax are in a child's best interest. Kicking myself for not just vaccinating and trying to go about this the right way. V upset that I can't protect my dc and my other kids.

Not sure how we will proceed frm here. So sad. My dh says " well we tried our best don't be upset" but I am.

Wahoo · September 2013

Can you appeal? If nothing else, stop submitting school forms and let X deal with it. Maybe an order and threat of expulsion from school will make a difference?

Karma1969 · September 2013

Expulsion from school? That's illegal based on opting out of vaxing.

What would happen if you did it? I know its contempt of court but to fine you or put you in jail or something like that over you making the choice to vaccinate would for sure land you on CNN and be the start of a movement. You can't be the only one on this position. You would have TONS of support.

SimpleJane · September 2013

Im so sorry. I would wait a while until its not such a hot issue with him and then just do it behind his back. I would personally just take the contempt charge.

Obviously, if you decided to go that route then talk to a lawyer first and see what all of the consequences would be if you went through with it.

How the eff are multiple outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases in your area not a change in circumstances? Can you appeal with those reports backing up your reasoning? Again, so sorry. **hugs**

Nineoceans · September 2013

Insane!!! So sorry you're dealing with that

CFjo2010 · September 2013

Karma1969 saWhat would happen if you did it? I know its contempt of court but to fine you or put you in jail or something like that over you making the choice to vaccinate would for sure land you on CNN and be the start of a movement. You can't be the only one on this position. You would have TONS of support.

What I'm about to say is totally flameworthy but here goes:

Appeal the decision and vaccinate your child. Send a copy of that ruling to the local paper, your city officials and local news channel. Create such a ruckus that the Judge is disbarred.

Karma1969 · September 2013

jobalchak said:

Karma1969 saWhat would happen if you did it? I know its contempt of court but to fine you or put you in jail or something like that over you making the choice to vaccinate would for sure land you on CNN and be the start of a movement. You can't be the only one on this position. You would have TONS of support.

What I'm about to say is totally flameworthy but here goes:

Appeal the decision and vaccinate your child. Send a copy of that ruling to the local paper, your city officials and local news channel. Create such a ruckus that the Judge is disbarred.

I would go for it. Not flame worthy at all.

hopanka · September 2013

Karma1969 said:

Expulsion from school? That's illegal based on opting out of vaxing. What would happen if you did it? I know its contempt of court but to fine you or put you in jail or something like that over you making the choice to vaccinate would for sure land you on CNN and be the start of a movement. You can't be the only one on this position. You would have TONS of support.

There are some states that won't allow a child in a public school, if not vaccinated. That said - my state is not one of them.

For OP: I would not go behind his back. You can appeal, but do not play with fire. You do not want to deliberately go against a brand new decision of the court. You never know what kind of ammo you may give to your Ex and what kind of a decision would be made based on contempt of the court. A pissed of judge could rule against you to the full extent of their power, instead of just a slap on the wrist.

+just+j+ · September 2013

What? That is so not what I was expecting! Appeal. Keep fighting it!

Sigir · September 2013

thx for your input everyone. We will appeal and I like the idea of media support. I am still in shock bc I never expected this. Need to regroup and move forward tomorrow.

KendraL86 · September 2013

Family law is very tough and not always fair. An appeal could potentially be a costly endeavor. Also, the appeals court will look at the judges behavior with an "abuse of discretion" standard. As an attorney, what the judge may have done may not be ideal, but in my state, it would never be considered abuse of discretion.

I think the media idea suggested here may be a good one. It won't change family law. It won't get the judge disbarred (an incredibly high standard!!!!). It won't even get a different ruling. But, it will raise awareness to future people - people who are considering agreeing to never vaccinate their kids and to give them pause about what may happen in the future. It may also make your ex look so shitty on the news that he will agree to vaccinations!

CFjo2010 · September 2013

KendraL86 said:

Family law is very tough and not always fair. An appeal could potentially be a costly endeavor. Also, the appeals court will look at the judges behavior with an "abuse of discretion" standard. As an attorney, what the judge may have done may not be ideal, but in my state, it would never be considered abuse of discretion. I think the media idea suggested here may be a good one. It won't change family law. It won't get the judge disbarred (an incredibly high standard!!!!). It won't even get a different ruling. But, it will raise awareness to future people - people who are considering agreeing to never vaccinate their kids and to give them pause about what may happen in the future. It may also make your ex look so shitty on the news that he will agree to vaccinations!

Considering there is documented measles/mumps outbreaks in the OP's area and this documentation was presented to the Judge, there is definitely an abuse of discretion. Putting the health and well-being of the public at risk is not only negligent but incredibly dangerous. As a paralegal who works in the Family Law field, I see the Judge receiving a formal reprimand and having the ruling overturned. A documented outbreak is definitely a change of circumstances.

KTdidit · September 2013

Wow. I can't even. Wow. I'd appeal for sure.

Sigir · September 2013

KendraL86 said:

Family law is very tough and not always fair. An appeal could potentially be a costly endeavor. Also, the appeals court will look at the judges behavior with an "abuse of discretion" standard. As an attorney, what the judge may have done may not be ideal, but in my state, it would never be considered abuse of discretion. I think the media idea suggested here may be a good one. It won't change family law. It won't get the judge disbarred (an incredibly high standard!!!!). It won't even get a different ruling. But, it will raise awareness to future people - people who are considering agreeing to never vaccinate their kids and to give them pause about what may happen in the future. It may also make your ex look so shitty on the news that he will agree to vaccinations!

Considering there is documented measles/mumps outbreaks in the OP's area and this documentation was presented to the Judge, there is definitely an abuse of discretion. Putting the health and well-being of the public at risk is not only negligent but incredibly dangerous. As a paralegal who works in the Family Law field, I see the Judge receiving a formal reprimand and having the ruling overturned. A documented outbreak is definitely a change of circumstances.

Sorry I am on ipad and it wont allow paragraphs for some reason so I am going to keep this breif. The judge actually stated that the number of people actually affected by the local outbreaks was too low to matter. (! the amount of people does not matter if you are one of the ones affected!) After sleeping on it, I am more hesitant to appeal based on the wording of the ruling. I feel like we don't have a chance of winning, unless I upgrade my lawyer and we are prepared to go full throttle on dollars. (The wording in the ruling quoted prescidents and pretty much stated that in order to get the ruling we wanted, we would have to do certain kinds of trials that would involve court time, etc.) I agree that the press would have a field day with this, but do I want to put my dc through that, for possibly limited return? I would love for my exh to be exposed as the lying wacko conspiracy theorist that he is, but what would I get out of that except short- term satisfaction and possibly longer term negative impact on my dc's psyche. I took a step back to examine why I did this... it was to protect my dc, but also to protect my other babies, esp the one who will be born in december. I am thinking that I may just put some extreme rules in place between my dc and the new baby until he has certain vaccines. I was not as worried about my one year old bc she was born in June, it's more this lo I am worried about. My goal was to protect my kids (and the community)... I may not have won, and I am shocked by that, but I can still do all I can to protect my kids. I am still very bothered by this outcome but I guess the sting will lessen with time. I think the judge just wanted to stay 100% out of the vaccine debate.

Hopeforthebest · September 2013

don't we always hear about momma bears and protecting their young and yadda yadda. Hills to die on and so forth? You have a very young and will have a newborn soon....yeah flame away...but I say let the dust settle and vaccinate. Period ..The End.

I can't believe your judge. I'm so sorry.

fellesferie · September 2013

I'm really shocked. Circumstances--both personally (your babies) and globally (debunking of vax/autism link)--have changed drastically.

To be honest with you, I'm not sure what I would do. The ruling would make me very nervous about just going ahead with the vax.

How uncomfortable can you make this for XH? Can you create a situation with the school or extracurricular activities that really forces him to jump through hoops? Force him to produce the paperwork so that she can continue to go unvaccinated? Create some sort of timeline where you can get her vax'd if he does not provide some kind of proof of religious exemption?

Littlejen22 · September 2013

I have wondered if he checks medical records too but also if he carries the insurance he will get the EOB so he will find out quickly. Unfortunately I do not think I would go against the new ruling immediately.

What is the school requirement? If it is religious then I would refuse to sign it stating that you need a religious exemption because that is lying. I would try to appeal it with documentation of the vaccine issues being debunked, the school documenting that you do not meet the exemption rules etc. And like someone said I would make a big stink in the news.

Sigir · September 2013

Thanks again everyone for your input. I included the documentation about the vaccine issues being debunked, but the judge noted it as not being relevant and being heresay. I pointed out the lying on the religious exemptions and the fact that he did not try to prove anything about religion and that was also deemed not relevant. The letters from the pediatricians recommending vaccination were marked as heresay. The outbreaks in the area were marked as irrelevant because the numbers of affected did not live up to an epidemic. My motion was very thorough, but obviously not what the judge feels is necessary. The Judge stated that in my state the precedent is that courts only intervene in medical decisions if there is a threat of immediate harm to the child, i.e. the child needs a transfusion now or will die. In cases like mine where the threat is more remote, the judge was very clear that the court will not intervene unless I elevate it and go to a trial format.

I have already been refusing to sign the exemptions, and have made it clear to the school that I am not supporting them, so now he is submitting them alone. He wants to take her back to her old doctor bc he feels that doctor is less pro-vaccine, although they also provided me with a letter for the case. He does hold he insurance so he would get the EOBs. I dont know what a judge would do as punnishment for immediate contempt if i vaccinated, but that course of action seema too risky. I just feel nauseous over the whole thing, but am trying to have a calming day as best I can.

Sigir · September 2013

fellesferie said:

I'm really shocked. Circumstances--both personally (your babies) and globally (debunking of vax/autism link)--have changed drastically.

To be honest with you, I'm not sure what I would do. The ruling would make me very nervous about just going ahead with the vax.

How uncomfortable can you make this for XH? Can you create a situation with the school or extracurricular activities that really forces him to jump through hoops? Force him to produce the paperwork so that she can continue to go unvaccinated? Create some sort of timeline where you can get her vax'd if he does not provide some kind of proof of religious exemption?

Felles, I forgot to address this in my last response. I did not get into specifics about having a one year old and being pregnant again... I just made a general statement that it would not only be in my dc's best interest, but also in the best interests of the other children in the family. IMO my only possible leg to stand on with an appeal is to get into more detail about the baby/ pregnancy being a change of circumstance... but honestly, the way the judge discarded all of the other things that I felt constituted a change of circumstance so flippantly, I don't feel like I have much of a chance.

MrsHetzel · September 2013

I say vaccinate. If the judge says he's not going to "intervene" then do it and assume he won't "intervene." 1) it's way easier to beg for forgiveness then ask for permission and 2) being held in contempt in family court is like getting a little slap on the wrist in my opinion. Unless its a money issue, being held in contempt really doesn't mean anything at all. (In my experience in 2 New England states)

CFjo2010 · September 2013

MrsHetzel said:

I say vaccinate. If the judge says he's not going to "intervene" then do it and assume he won't "intervene." 1) it's way easier to beg for forgiveness then ask for permission and 2) being held in contempt in family court is like getting a little slap on the wrist in my opinion. Unless its a money issue, being held in contempt really doesn't mean anything at all. (In my experience in 2 New England states)

Regarding the bold: #moded

^:)^

@sigir I'm just so sorry. I cannot imagine how helpless and frustrated and angry you must feel about all of this. I am so outraged for you that I had a hard time sleeping last night. I just can't believe that a Judge would say that pediatrician advice is "hearsay". I stand by my earlier statement about contacting the media. This whole situation is just NOT ok.

When you come up for air, I'm wondering if filing a motion to have BD responsible for any and all extraordinary healthcare costs related to the lack of immunization is something you would want to seek. You have made your position very clear on wanting LO vaccinated, so if god forbid anything were to happen I feel that BD (since he's the reason LO isn't vaccinated) should bear the entire costs associated with treatment. I would under no circumstances agree to letting BD change LO's Dr. Let him haul you back to Court over it, but don't agree to it. And once the dust settles, I agree with PPs that getting LO vaccinated is something you should do. Let BD take you back to Court and let the Judge hold you in contempt. Then raise hell again with the local media and make life for your Judge uncomfortable. This whole situation is just so ridiculous.

Interwebz hug...

>:D<

Gwenillian · September 2013

Don't know where you are or how your state works, but in my state you can get vaccinations at the county health department inexpensively for children ($5 voluntary donation) and it doesn't go through insurance. Probably because it is deemed in the best interests of the larger community. The only way my ex would know is to look the children up on the statewide immunization database - if he even is aware that it exists.

Maybe your state has something similar?

dannie2011 · September 2013

Gwenillian said:

Don't know where you are or how your state works, but in my state you can get vaccinations at the county health department inexpensively for children ($5 voluntary donation) and it doesn't go through insurance. Probably because it is deemed in the best interests of the larger community. The only way my ex would know is to look the children up on the statewide immunization database - if he even is aware that it exists.

Maybe your state has something similar?

This is exactly what I was going to say.

MrsHetzel said:

I say vaccinate. If the judge says he's not going to "intervene" then do it and assume he won't "intervene." 1) it's way easier to beg for forgiveness then ask for permission and 2) being held in contempt in family court is like getting a little slap on the wrist in my opinion. Unless its a money issue, being held in contempt really doesn't mean anything at all. (In my experience in 2 New England states)

I read this as this is a parenting issue solve it on your own, as I (Judge) don't want to get involved.

Ilumine · September 2013

Here is what I would do.

1) start following the court order to the T. And document every single time he screws up.

- he is supposed to drop off a 9m and is 15 late, call the cops and file a contempt charge.

- he is 1 day late on CS, contact the state

- he does not answer the phone when he has the kids, send in the cops for a wellfare check up.

- if there is Right of First Refusal, start enforcing it.

-

2) Start having him take LO to every and all doctors appointments, even if its the old doctor. He believes that he is as smart as or smarter than the medical professionals from AROUND THE WORLD, then he can start controlling his child's medical care.

Granted you should follow up, but when LO gets a sniffle call him and tell him he needs to come right over and make the trip. That includes dental.

If he wants to supercede the decision making of the parent who is doing most of the health care, then he gets to take on the entire care.

3) I would contact the press about this. This is NOT just for your sake but for the sake of every other family court case that comes before this IGNORANT judge.

This judge basically stated that siting the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT"s (i.e. the CDC) own research is considered Hearsay? That means that anytime a lawyer uses sited scientific research it is hearsay. A good lawyer could use this one decision (to not take properly sited scientific research) to overturn a number of other cases.

4) Then after about 6 months of showing your Ex what life is like living by the current CO, I would look at going back for a full CO review/change.

twister22 · September 2013

Hopeforthebest said:

don't we always hear about momma bears and protecting their young and yadda yadda. Hills to die on and so forth? You have a very young and will have a newborn soon....yeah flame away...but I say let the dust settle and vaccinate. Period ..The End.

I can't believe your judge. I'm so sorry.

Honestly, this is what I would do. Will the hospital even let DC visit LO in the hospital if he's not vaccinated? DD was born December 2012 and at the time 4yo DS couldn't visit her unless he was up to date on vaccinations and had the flu vax.

This is probably sketchy and definitely flame worthy, but is it possible to have the vaccinations done kind of off the record? Like, you can have a copy that it was done to show for anything important like future doctors or school if needed, but have it not be in the official doctor records so BD doesn't know about it?

Gosh BD's so stupid. And why does the judge care about the "vaccination debate?" The majority of people think they're a good idea, and then there's some crazy people who won't vaccinate no matter what. Heck, in my area there are countless pediatric practices that won't accept patients with parents who are unwilling to vaccinate.

Littlejen22 · September 2013

Just because the judge said he will not get involved does not mean she won't be punished if caught purposely not abiding by the order. And if she does it trough insurance he will get the EOB and take her to court before she can get boosters.

If you do it I would do it through the county or pay out of pocket.

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