Keeping Kids From Toy Guns (LIP) Thoughts?

penguingrrl · August 2013

nosoup4u said:

KC_13 said:

KateMW said:

Oh, I don't disagree that I wouldn't keep a toy gun that looked like a glock in my house or let my kid bring it to a playground. I got lost at the idea that pretend play involving guns was a punishable offense.

I don't think it's punishable, but what's the difference between a kid pretending to shoot someone or a kid pretending to beat someone up/hurt them? I don't see a difference in that, so no, my kids aren't allowed to pretend to shoot each other.

DS1's preschool teachers always had a "no guns, no shooting people" rule, which I think is totally reasonable at home.

But! I think any normalization of guns isn't good, which is my own personal feelings towards them. It definitely colors how I view toy guns (i.e. we have none, and we will never purposely buy any, water, nerf, etc.).

I'm curious--if your kids can't pretend play to hurt, are they not allowed to roughhouse play with their father either? What about a kid who pretends to be a football player--is he not allowed to tackle siblings while they're playing in the grass in the backyard? Where do you draw the line?
I also don't know how you prevent kids from being exposed to toy guns. This is the first year we've done water guns and they were at a friends birthday party. When ds saw them in the store and wanted them for play at his house, I couldn't think of a very compelling reason to say no.

Kids tackling each other in the yard seems like a kids will be kids thing where guns just feel sinister to me (although I'm also in the non-football camp for many reasons). If adults choose to have guns as toys that's their choice since they are fully cognizant of how dangerous a gun is. I worry about children (and even teens) who don't have fully developed brains not having a real understanding of the risks presented by guns.

notkateanymore · August 2013

Guns are hobbies, but they're not toys.

notkateanymore · August 2013

Hav=Fath said:

KC_13 said:

nosoup4u said:

KC_13 said:

KateMW said:

Oh, I don't disagree that I wouldn't keep a toy gun that looked like a glock in my house or let my kid bring it to a playground. I got lost at the idea that pretend play involving guns was a punishable offense.

I don't think it's punishable, but what's the difference between a kid pretending to shoot someone or a kid pretending to beat someone up/hurt them? I don't see a difference in that, so no, my kids aren't allowed to pretend to shoot each other.

DS1's preschool teachers always had a "no guns, no shooting people" rule, which I think is totally reasonable at home.

But! I think any normalization of guns isn't good, which is my own personal feelings towards them. It definitely colors how I view toy guns (i.e. we have none, and we will never purposely buy any, water, nerf, etc.).

I'm curious--if your kids can't pretend play to hurt, are they not allowed to roughhouse play with their father either? What about a kid who pretends to be a football player--is he not allowed to tackle siblings while they're playing in the grass in the backyard? Where do you draw the line?
I also don't know how you prevent kids from being exposed to toy guns. This is the first year we've done water guns and they were at a friends birthday party. When ds saw them in the store and wanted them for play at his house, I couldn't think of a very compelling reason to say no.

I wonder about this as well.

Roughhousing and playing football is not about hurting somebody. Shooting somebody is about hurting them. Do you really not know the difference?

notkateanymore · August 2013

Hav=Fath said:

KateMW said:

Hav=Fath said:

KC_13 said:

nosoup4u said:

KC_13 said:

KateMW said:

Oh, I don't disagree that I wouldn't keep a toy gun that looked like a glock in my house or let my kid bring it to a playground. I got lost at the idea that pretend play involving guns was a punishable offense.

I don't think it's punishable, but what's the difference between a kid pretending to shoot someone or a kid pretending to beat someone up/hurt them? I don't see a difference in that, so no, my kids aren't allowed to pretend to shoot each other.

DS1's preschool teachers always had a "no guns, no shooting people" rule, which I think is totally reasonable at home.

But! I think any normalization of guns isn't good, which is my own personal feelings towards them. It definitely colors how I view toy guns (i.e. we have none, and we will never purposely buy any, water, nerf, etc.).

I'm curious--if your kids can't pretend play to hurt, are they not allowed to roughhouse play with their father either? What about a kid who pretends to be a football player--is he not allowed to tackle siblings while they're playing in the grass in the backyard? Where do you draw the line?
I also don't know how you prevent kids from being exposed to toy guns. This is the first year we've done water guns and they were at a friends birthday party. When ds saw them in the store and wanted them for play at his house, I couldn't think of a very compelling reason to say no.

I wonder about this as well.

Roughhousing and playing football is not about hurting somebody. Shooting somebody is about hurting them. Do you really not know the difference?

You don't have to phrase things so rude. People have made comments multiple times about how they never allow anyone to be hurt, kicked, hit etc. I genuinely wonder if they allow general rough housing, or if the kicking/hitting thing is a hardcore rule. That's what I was meaning anyway, can't speak for KC.

And I was talking to KC, since she said it. I should have said see vs. know, but I wasn't the first rude one on this thread, so I'll live with the shame.

Since you expanded on what you meant, roughhousing and playing football isn't about kicking and hitting in the true sense of the word. If DD and DH are messing around and somebody gets kicked or hurt, it stops. If you are playing football and you hit somebody, you get in trouble. Shooting is about hurting somebody...when you aim at another kid and say bang you're dead, it's only about hurting.

honkytonk_kid · August 2013

KateMW said:

Guns are hobbies, but they're not toys.

Well, that's getting into semantics that I'm just not interested in arguing over. Used for fun= toy, IMO. Is my sewing machine a toy? Well, no not really. But when I got it I said "Look at my new toy!" because I "play" with it, ie it's what I entertain myself with.

My point is that I don't want LO to have toy guns before he can understand that just because something is fun doesn't mean 1. it is for kids or 2. that it isn't dangerous.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

Ill kill the quote tree. Rip quote tree. @katemw a small child isn't pretend playing with a gun because they're trying to kill people in the real sense of the word just like a kid isn't really trying to hurt someone even if they pretend they are during roughhousing.

nosoup4u · August 2013

KateMW said:

Hav=Fath said:

KC_13 said:

I'm curious--if your kids can't pretend play to hurt, are they not allowed to roughhouse play with their father either? What about a kid who pretends to be a football player--is he not allowed to tackle siblings while they're playing in the grass in the backyard? Where do you draw the line?
I also don't know how you prevent kids from being exposed to toy guns. This is the first year we've done water guns and they were at a friends birthday party. When ds saw them in the store and wanted them for play at his house, I couldn't think of a very compelling reason to say no.

I wonder about this as well.

Roughhousing and playing football is not about hurting somebody. Shooting somebody is about hurting them. Do you really not know the difference?

What Kate said. KC, why am I not surprised that you don't understand (or pretend to understand) the nuances of kids pretending to shoot each other vs. kids pretending other types of harm. I'm not following how roughhousing (and why is it "with their father"? I don't get to roughhouse with my kids because I'm a lady?) is the same as pretending to shoot each other.

Not-really-related: I'll never let any of my kids play football, either.

And also everything Amynumbers has said.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

Hav=Fath said:

amy052006 said:

Oh goodie, another gun post!.

My kids will not get guns because we are not "gun people". It's that simple. I'm totally ok being a full and complete snob about it, and punishing them if they "pretend to shoot someone".

I just say it's easier to say this when they're too young to be playing "cops & robbers" etc. I can't help but imagine it will be harder to stop/punish them when a) they're not around you b) all their friends are firing at them and they have to stop from defending themselves. Obviously it'll be much easier to control, at least until they're in preschool or school.

Yep. My kid just started doing this and it was likely from friends at preschool. I think it's insane to punish him for pretend play.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Lol at all the my kid will never. Um okay my kid picked it up at preschool. So unless you are planning on HS I can bet you money your son will play toy guns and if you punish him I can bet he will still find a stick at recess, but keep believing you have total control even when your kid is out of your house. And while not all hobbies equal toys, I believe men that collect cars or planes (this is common in our lives) as hobbies also consider them their toys.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

And no way does my four year old understand the permanence of death. He is not shooting someone because he wants them dead. I can't stand putting adult intentions and feelings onto kids.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

Andrewsgal said:

Lol at all the my kid will never. Um okay my kid picked it up at preschool. So unless you are planning on HS I can bet you money your son will play toy guns and if you punish him I can bet he will still find a stick at recess, but keep believing you have total control even when your kid is out of your house. And while not all hobbies equal toys, I believe men that collect cars or planes (this is common in our lives) as hobbies also consider them their toys.

Lmao @ gun play being our unity horse.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Well I am a huge fan of play and its necessity to development as I know you are. I just can't imagine telling my kid not to play something because it makes mommy uncomfortable. I don't love DD and her Barbie or baby doll obsession, but she is doing it because she loves it not because of some patriarchy women belong in the home taking care of babies BS.

penguingrrl · August 2013

Andrewsgal said:

Lol at all the my kid will never. Um okay my kid picked it up at preschool. So unless you are planning on HS I can bet you money your son will play toy guns and if you punish him I can bet he will still find a stick at recess, but keep believing you have total control even when your kid is out of your house. And while not all hobbies equal toys, I believe men that collect cars or planes (this is common in our lives) as hobbies also consider them their toys.

I have no allusions that I can control everything the kids do when I'm not around. That said, I do plan to tell them gun play is naughty. It's the same as any other values you hope to instill in your children. I will teach them that hitting, kicking, biting, shooting people are all naughty as they do them in my presence and hope the lesson sticks when I'm gone and that the adult in charge enforces my expectations.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Well then we have to agree to disagree. I think hitting is naughty, I think gun play is a total typical stage of development for boys and in no way think it leads to anything horrible.

penguingrrl · August 2013

Eh, my kids schools all say it's naughty. They don't suspend over it or anything or send a kid to the principal but they do make them stop.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Eh my kids schools tend to ignore it on the playground unless someone is getting hurt.

penguingrrl · August 2013

Different regions and cultures. I'm not in a state where hunting is common or people generally own guns (I've never met someone who hunted). There's little tolerance for gun play as the most frequent gun users here are gang members rather than upstanding citizens. You're in an area that has a very different culture.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Very very true. Maybe that's it. I would assume that our SES are comparable so I assume you are right, maybe it is more acceptable due to our culture of guns.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

penguingrrl said:

Andrewsgal said:

Lol at all the my kid will never. Um okay my kid picked it up at preschool. So unless you are planning on HS I can bet you money your son will play toy guns and if you punish him I can bet he will still find a stick at recess, but keep believing you have total control even when your kid is out of your house. And while not all hobbies equal toys, I believe men that collect cars or planes (this is common in our lives) as hobbies also consider them their toys.

I have no allusions that I can control everything the kids do when I'm not around. That said, I do plan to tell them gun play is naughty. It's the same as any other values you hope to instill in your children. I will teach them that hitting, kicking, biting, shooting people are all naughty as they do them in my presence and hope the lesson sticks when I'm gone and that the adult in charge enforces my expectations.

I'm just not grasping how doing something in pretend translates to doing something irl. My kid will pretend play being a fireman...but when a fire truck comes he doesn't try to jump on the truck amd grab the hose. He has a toy saw but knows dads real saw is dangerous and never tries to grab Dhs for play even if he has it out to do something in the yard. If my kid actually tries to physically harm another kid of course we discipline...but I wouldn't if he got in a fight with Rex (his imaginary friend, lol).

penguingrrl · August 2013

Yes. I think that's something often missed in discussions on here. Different areas have very different perceptions of guns.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

penguingrrl said:

Different regions and cultures. I'm not in a state where hunting is common or people generally own guns (I've never met someone who hunted). There's little tolerance for gun play as the most frequent gun users here are gang members rather than upstanding citizens. You're in an area that has a very different culture.

I don't buy that. I live in the northeast where hunting and gun ownership isn't popular. My son learned gun play through preschool. My cousins (who range from lower income to very well off) all got into gun play as young kids.

strlitemiss · August 2013

For those of you uncomfortable with your kids gun play have you thought about taking them (and yourself) to a gun safety class? They have classes geared towards 3-5 age group. They learn gun safety and dos and donts and you get a better piece of mind knowing your kids are educated a little bit. Knowledge is power.

penguingrrl · August 2013

When my 5 year old asked about guns (the day she saw it in karate) we discussed that if you ever see a gun you do not touch and you get a grown up. I'm not sure what more there would be to learn. I wouldn't touch one myself unless it was to get it out of reach if it was where kids could get it. I'm morally opposed to shooting gun so I don't need a class beyond keep it away from children and children should get an adult.

nosoup4u · August 2013

lmtoo89 said:

For those of you uncomfortable with your kids gun play have you thought about taking them (and yourself) to a gun safety class? They have classes geared towards 3-5 age group. They learn gun safety and dos and donts and you get a better piece of mind knowing your kids are educated a little bit. Knowledge is power.

Oh god, people on here and their fucking gun safety courses making everyone else love guns. Not ever going to happen. My eyes cannot roll far enough back in my head at the thought.

Guns aren't a part of my life or my kids' lives. My son has been in preschool for three years and (shocker!!!!) hasn't "picked up" gun play from it. He's not missing out a key component of being a kid or using his imagination, either.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

I totally believe the gun culture is very different in my middle class suburban texas neighborhood than an inner city Philly neighborhood. In my small town we have has one murder in 5 years and it was a hit and run DWI case. Sure there are more in the larger cities but gun violence close to home is rare here.

ariel06 · August 2013

DS1 and DS2 both do it. We don't have gun or gun like toys, but they've them out of Legos or pretended with their hand. I let it go unless they're pretending to shoot at people,

DH grew up on a farm and hunting is very common in our area.

bridein08 · August 2013

I highly doubt a gun safety class geared to 3-5 year olds is going to try to get anyone to love guns. That is just complete BS. And refusing to take a safety class of any kind because you don't like the topic? Well, I don't like fires, so I won't be teaching my child about fire safety. Plop your eyes back in your head and move along, PP.

LoriLee14 · August 2013

Maybe it is the area I live in but they have gun safety (and fire, electricity, and so on) at elementary school. It is usually a guy up front explaining everything and they a Q&A portion

I live in Alabama

penguingrrl · August 2013

LoriLee14 said:

Maybe it is the area I live in but they have gun safety (and fire, electricity, and so on) at elementary school. It is usually a guy up front explaining everything and they a Q&A portion

I live in Alabama

We were told not to touch guns if we saw them in elementary school (the police came in and gave a "don't touch" talk). That was the same thing I was told at home. No special safety course needed to tell a kid that if you see a gun don't touch and get an adult. As someone who has never encountered a gun it's a reasonable amount of gun safety.

bridein08 · August 2013

LalaMama81 said:

I highly doubt a gun safety class geared to 3-5 year olds is going to try to get anyone to love guns. That is just complete BS. And refusing to take a safety class of any kind because you don't like the topic? Well, I don't like fires, so I won't be teaching my child about fire safety. Plop your eyes back in your head and move along, PP.
If we own no guns, have no plans to own them, don't hunt, etc., why in earth would I send my 4 year old to a gun safety class? Also, your fire example doesn't work.

Because kids die ALL.THE.TIME from this sort of thing. THEIR family doesn't own guns, hunt or even let their children have toy guns. But if you ever let your child out of your sight it happens, period.

Did you ever watch the 20/20 special on kids and guns? They did an experiment, even giving a short lecture in advance telling these children- ages 3-5- not to touch a gun, what to do if they found one. Several parents mentioned they didn't own guns, their children didn't play with guns, were not allowed to have gun play (even with their hands), yet the majority of these children were "pretend" shooting the other kids in the head with the gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SORTmj3iaG4

There is a short clip- it is very interesting, but shows you that simply telling a kid "do not do XYZ" in a short period of time doesn't work. Role playing, so that the action is like second nature (yelling, getting an adult, etc) is far more effective. This isn't happening in most households/lectures, etc. with this age.

bridein08 · August 2013

Oh- by the way. My husband (an officer) found a loaded gun unattended yesterday. Within TEN feet of a childcare center's (preschool) playground. He assumes it was tossed when someone was getting pulled over by another officer, but doesn't know how it got there. Could have ended up much worse... but my point is:

Don't assume because you don't have guns or don't let your children associate with people that own guns, that they won't be exposed to them or have an opportunity to make a deadly mistake.

bridein08 · August 2013

No, LaLa. I was responding to an earlier poster in my first thread who flipped out for someone suggesting that. (nosoup4u) I did not mean for it to sound like any hostility was directed towards you at all. Guns are a bit of a soapbox for me, because I have seen the result of parents assuming That because they had no guns, didn't associate with people who have guns, etc. their kid would be safe. I will step back for now, but just hope that parents realize that the above is not true. Carry on

notkateanymore · August 2013

LoriLee14 said:

Maybe it is the area I live in but they have gun safety (and fire, electricity, and so on) at elementary school. It is usually a guy up front explaining everything and they a Q&A portion

I live in Alabama

Not in my part of AL. This would and does not happen.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

LalaMama81 said:

penguingrrl said:

Different regions and cultures. I'm not in a state where hunting is common or people generally own guns (I've never met someone who hunted). There's little tolerance for gun play as the most frequent gun users here are gang members rather than upstanding citizens. You're in an area that has a very different culture.

I don't buy that. I live in the northeast where hunting and gun ownership isn't popular. My son learned gun play through preschool. My cousins (who range from lower income to very well off) all got into gun play as young kids.
But the entire northeast isn't the same culturally. Heck, ct is considered New England and nj is mid Atlantic. The ne is a huge region, of course it's not the same. Off the top of my head Penguin, Amy, and a few others have explained that gun culture is very different in their area. Just like its very different in Texas or West Virginia. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not true.

The gun culture is the same here as there. No one hunts or owns guns. They're unheard of. Kids at preschool still pretend to be policeman and realize police carry guns to keep people safe. Saying that kind of play just doesn't happen in certain areas where that culture exists is crazy.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Andrewsgal said:

I totally believe the gun culture is very different in my middle class suburban texas neighborhood than an inner city Philly neighborhood. In my small town we have has one murder in 5 years and it was a hit and run DWI case. Sure there are more in the larger cities but gun violence close to home is rare here.

Well, TBH, the gun violence that concerns me isn't really some gang bangers in North Philly. I don't deal drugs or associate with those who do, and those guys stick to their neighborhood and are surprisingly accurate!

I am much more concerned with some paranoid nutbag living next door who thinks it is his constitutional right to shoot first and ask questions later when he mistakes my cat for some tthief looking to jack his flat screen or iphone.

You are so stuck on this crazy stock piling thing. You bring it up every time a gun debate comes up. It is actually pretty rare, but you have to assume it is not to make your point. Oh and if the crazy next door is stock piling. First of all you would never know. Second of all you are just as likely to deal with this in Philly as you are in Texas third you can't stop crazy.

zbeesma86 · August 2013

I was a cop before becoming a SAHM- I have my CCWL and carry all the time- it is my protection. DH has a gun as well- stays home mostly, but it has the safety on and isn't loaded.

DD WILL understand what to do with a gun when she is older (she is 1 not) and CAN understand. If she ever finds one or what not. But we are very safe with our weapons. Holstered, safety on, not one in the chamber.

Guns aren't bad. People who are irresponsible with them and aren't educated about them are the problems. Just like driving. Cars aren't bad. But people that drive drunk and disobey traffic laws are the ones that cause the problems!

Minipenguin · August 2013

Last weekend, we went to my ILs lake house. They were there the day before and when we arrived, FIL's gun (a rifle) was sitting on the kitchen counter. Loaded. DH's family is full of hunters and his parents grew up in very rural Kentucky, so I understand that guns are just part of their culture and they feel they need to protect themselves or whatever. But I completely flipped out and told him I didn't care if it cost $400 or $4,000, they had to buy a gun safe with a lock and all the guns and bullets had to be in it at all times when the baby was around and if not then we would not bring her to their house(s) ever. Yes, I know it's not really my place to demand that they do things, but I would totally fine just never allowing her to go over. Their defense was that she's too young to reach them. Yeah, well, I don't care.

Anyway, I won't let her have toy guns of any kind or pretend to shoot people because guns are, unfortunately, very present in her life. it is entirely possible (obviously) that she goes to their house and sees a gun laying out. I want her to know they're not toys, they're weapons, and not have any experience playing with them, ever.

I will let her learn to shoot them and go to a gun safety class when I feel like she is old enough. Because that is the proper context for guns, they're meant to be used on a shooting range or while hunting, they're not toys and they're not to be played with.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

I would never allow my child in a house where they knowingly have a gun without a safe or two. My inlaws have guns I told the, as much. I absolutely think it is my right as a parent to demand safety for my kids. We are at the age now where my kids will be going to other people's houses with out us, well DD at least. I think it is immensely important to teacher her gun safety(hands off not shooting of course).

Minipenguin · August 2013

Andrewsgal said:

I would never allow my child in a house where they knowingly have a gun without a safe or two. My inlaws have guns I told the, as much. I absolutely think it is my right as a parent to demand safety for my kids. We are at the age now where my kids will be going to other people's houses with out us, well DD at least. I think it is immensely important to teacher her gun safety(hands off not shooting of course).

They have a safe at the house they live in, this is a vacation house and they just brought down a couple of them. DD is the first grandchild and the other kids in the family all hunt (they're 9ish) so I know they're just not used to having a young child around, they just come home and toss the gun on the counter, eat lunch and go back out. It probably hadn't occurred to them yet. But either leave the guns at home or buy a safe. She'll be old enough to reach them in no time.

LoriLee14 · August 2013

KateMW said:

LoriLee14 said:

Maybe it is the area I live in but they have gun safety (and fire, electricity, and so on) at elementary school. It is usually a guy up front explaining everything and they a Q&A portion

I live in Alabama
Not in my part of AL. This would and does not happen.

I went to school in Talladega county (which is close to Birmingham) and we did it when I was that age.

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