Unwanted pregnancy and child support

[Deleted User] · June 2013

LoisLayn23:
In theory (and anecdotal evidence FTW) the mother doesn't work, receives FIP, gets child support, and actually contributes very little monetarily to the child.

In what world is this? Are we discussing this based on hypothetical situations, or the situation that affects most actual single mothers?

Most child support awards don't come close to what dads would actually pay if they were actively raising their kid.

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

I'll be a dissenter and say if a woman chooses to have sex she should be prepared to raise the baby by herself if the father doesn't hang around. I used to think all men should pay child support no matter what until my cousin got himself in a situation where his girlfriend got pregnant and terminated the pregnancy against his wishes to keep the baby. I'm very pro-choice but still think if the woman can end a pregnancy she doesn't want and the father does, the father should be able to relinquish all ties to a baby he never wanted, too. It sucks for the child big time but that's why I never let some guy who would shirk away from his responsibilities stick his d!ck in me. A casual fling or one night stand wasn't worth the risk to me.

Flame away.

[Deleted User] · June 2013

I don't really know what answer ka;jfjak6dfioar is looking for other than "life's not fair."

izzourclue · June 2013

LoisLayn23:
overture:
krptcmschfmkr128:

But you can't use that argument for one party, yet not the other. It's a double standard. The woman should have to accept the potential outcomes, as well, if she's a willing participant in the sex, if you want to apply it to the man as well.

How exactly is carrying the pregnancy, giving birth, paying for at least half of the child's care, and raising the child by herself not "accepting the potential outcomes?"

In theory (and anecdotal evidence FTW) the mother doesn't work, receives FIP, gets child support, and actually contributes very little monetarily to the child.

"I ain't claimin' she's a gold digger. But she ain't messin' with no broke..."

[Deleted User] · June 2013

Do you realize how awesome our maternity leave laws would be if men could carry babies?

Also science would probably have found a way to make an absolutely 100% effective BC method, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

gnomemom · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
MrsGoodkat:
Here's the situation I heard about this weekend that spawned my questions.
40-year-old single man has a job where he travels most of the time and makes good money. He uses a big chunk of his money to pay for round-the-clock care for his parents and disabled brother. He lives very minimally himself so that he is able to do this. Man never wants to get married or have kids and has had a vasectomy. He begins seeing a girl who lives in one of the cities he flies to often for business. They have a sexual relationship for about 3 months. She finds out she's pregnant. A paternity test proves the baby is, in fact, his. She chooses to keep the baby and a judge orders him to pay a huge amount of child support based on his income, thereby affecting his ability to afford the same level care for his parents and disabled brother that he had been doing. He's been trying to get the amount reduced but has been unsuccessful so far.
 
It's hard for me to be so cut and dry. He did have a vasectomy but because it failed he now has to pay all this money in child support for a child he tried to prevent having. Is it realistic to expect a man to abstain from sex for his whole life just because he might get someone pregnant? We hardly expect our teenagers to abstain from sex until they're out of high school, nevermind financially stable enough to provide for an unplanned child. 
Failed vasectomies are ridiculously rare. I really don't think we need to change child support laws to protect an insanely small amount of the population.
None of this shiiit is black and white. This is a circumstance in which a very small percentage of the population with be at a detriment to protect the vast majority. 
Kind of like the "welfare queens" driving their Mercedes with their iphones. I'm not convinced these people exist in any significant number. The good outweighs the bad. Pay your daamn child support. 

ITA. It sucks for this guy, but the same rules apply. His situation is not the typical child support situation, but the laws shouldn't be changed so people like him get off the hook. How would you word such a law? That men who have failed vasectomies don't have to pay? Or just men who have too many other financial responsibilities? See how that's not fair, either?

Child support laws are never going to work out perfectly for everyone. Life just isn't that simple. They're designed to protect as many children as possible.

littlemermaid · June 2013

He knew full well when he stuck his reproductive organ into her reproductive organ that a pregnancy could have resulted (even with protection), so yes he should have to pay child support. Next time don't have sex if you aren't ready to take the responsibility.

izzourclue · June 2013

Holls2011:
I always tend to put myself in the persons shoes before judging a situation.
Me, personally, if I were to get pregnant with someone I was not serious with, I would not even remotely force a relationship whether that be financial or otherwise on that man. If he wanted one, there would be support of that child. If not, I wouldn't want to have him in mine or my child's life at all- no ties.
I see both sides. The one thing I do not understand is how someone can say "well don't have sex unless you are ok with the consequences". I think if men thought like this they wouldn't be having sex until they are married and positive they want kids at that point. I don't know about you, but I am glad I had sex before meeting DH.

The thing about life is, the risk is there whether you "accept" it or not. Every time someone has sex they are risking pregnancy and/or disease. That is just fact. A person can take steps to mitigate that risk, but they can't eliminate it and still engage in sex. I'm not against premarital or even casual sex. I just think as adults we shouldn't take these actions without knowing and accepting the reality of these risks. And if you are one of the unlucky few that have an unwanted consequence of sex, whether it's a baby or herpes, you accept your part in your exposure to that consequence and deal with it responsibly. And I don't think we have to worry about all the men of the world saving themselves for marriage with the threat of forced child support hanging over their heads.

amykins1283 · June 2013

morgann2010:
I'm riding the UO bus on this one. Women shouldn't be the only one to make the decision just because their consequence is greater than the man's. They made the decision to have sex, too.

So, women should be able to be forced to have an abortion or forced to carry the child snd give birth, both of which are medical procedures which have the potential for lifelong physical consequences? Sorry, I just can't fathom this. Nature made men and women the way they are and it sucks sometimes but people need to be responsible and deal with the card they've been dealt. If that means that men get the shaft then that's just the way it is.

Unknown · June 2013

This content has been removed.

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
Seriously. I just don't understand how those of you who are for men being able to opt out of child responsibility expect to be able to measure the intentions of the man at conception? The ONLY case this would be an issue in is the case of a failed vasectomy. Other than that how do you measure if a man truly tried to prevent/didn't want a child. It's her word against his. Do you make men sign a waiver at the time of intercourse? And is some lawyer then going to argue that the waiver is invalid because he wasn't thinking with his big brain, he was using his little one? There are just too many variables to measure. The important thing is protecting the child, not either parent.

That's why I think if a woman enters a sexual relationship, she needs to do so knowing the man may not stick around and take responsibility for a child she chooses to keep. For most women the law is on her side so she can choose at some point to stop taking BC pills or whatever, get pregnant, and the father has to pay.

They really need to get that male birth control developed.

I do think, as it stands now, if a mom signs away rights to the father then she should have to pay child support just as the father would have to if the roles were reversed.

izzourclue · June 2013

SunnyMeg1:
ItsAllGravy7:
Seriously. I just don't understand how those of you who are for men being able to opt out of child responsibility expect to be able to measure the intentions of the man at conception? The ONLY case this would be an issue in is the case of a failed vasectomy. Other than that how do you measure if a man truly tried to prevent/didn't want a child. It's her word against his. Do you make men sign a waiver at the time of intercourse? And is some lawyer then going to argue that the waiver is invalid because he wasn't thinking with his big brain, he was using his little one? There are just too many variables to measure. The important thing is protecting the child, not either parent.
That's why I think if a woman enters a sexual relationship, she needs to do so knowing the man may not stick around and take responsibility for a child she chooses to keep. For most women the law is on her side so she can choose at some point to stop taking BC pills or whatever, get pregnant, and the father has to pay.
They really need to get that male birth control developed.
I do think, as it stands now, if a mom signs away rights to the father then she should have to pay child support just as the father would have to if the roles were reversed.

They're called condoms.

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

izzourclue:
They're called condoms.

Condoms break. Male BC would add an extra level of protection, just like female BC does. Triple protection.

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
Oh and ETA- Women DO have to pay child support if the man has custody, wtf are you talking about?

Uh, I didn't say they didn't. I was adding my opinion on whether the women should have to pay if the roles were reversed. But thanks for the FYI.

MrsGoodkat · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
Oh I'm all for a male BCP/shot/whatever....but that will have a failure rate as well.

Everything except abstinence has a failure rate but if both men and women could be on BC and use condoms and avoid fertile times and whatever else people want to do to not have a baby it's just extra protection.

Unknown · June 2013

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klondikebar · June 2013

amykins1283:
Nature made men and women the way they are and it sucks sometimes but people need to be responsible and deal with the card they've been dealt. If that means that men get the shaft then that's just the way it is.

This sums it up for me.

amykins1283 · June 2013

krptcmschfmkr128:
overture:
krptcmschfmkr128:
But you can't use that argument for one party, yet not the other.  It's a double standard. The woman should have to accept the potential outcomes, as well, if she's a willing participant in the sex, if you want to apply it to the man as well.
How exactly is carrying the pregnancy, giving birth, paying for at least half of the child's care, and raising the child by herself not "accepting the potential outcomes?"
I think you missed the tone of the argument. If we're expecting men to accept their potential outcomes, then women should have to do the same when they willingly have sex by no adoption/abortion. If a man is to be expected to pay for a child he doesn't want, but the mother does, then a woman shouldn't be allowed to end a pregnancy she doesn't want, but that the father does.
And if you missed my disclaimer before, this isn't how I truly feel about abortion, it's a Devil's advocate argument. 

Medical trumps financial. A woman should not be forced into a risky medical procedure just because someone else wants something she doesn't. A man having to pay child support is not putting his life at risk to do so.

jackson290721 · June 2013

I'm curious. To the people saying the man should be able to opt out of the responsibility, how many times should he be able to do this? Is there a limit?

For example, my dad has, last I checked , 5 children. All with different moms. He does not see any of us, did not plan for any of us, and basically did not want any of us. (No woman tricked him BTW, all us kids were product of failed condoms - you would think he would have realized condoms are not 100% by child #3 or so...) He has a pretty hefty child support bill each month. He is still paying back support on me.

Anyway, how many kids should a man be able to "back out of" for lack of a better term? Should there be a limit?

amykins1283 · June 2013

morgann2010:
amykins1283:
morgann2010:
I'm riding the UO bus on this one. Women shouldn't be the only one to make the decision just because their consequence is greater than the man's. They made the decision to have sex, too.

So, women should be able to be forced to have an abortion or forced to carry the child snd give birth, both of which are medical procedures which have the potential for lifelong physical consequences? Sorry, I just can't fathom this. Nature made men and women the way they are and it sucks sometimes but people need to be responsible and deal with the card they've been dealt. If that means that men get the shaft then that's just the way it is.
You completely misinterpreted what I said, that isn't even close. If a woman chooses to carry the child, that is her choice to make for herself, it shouldn't be her choice to make for the man that impregnated her. She shouldn't get to choose the mans fate for the next 18 years just because she is the one carrying the child.

I'm still in the camp of you made your bed now lie in it, for both parties, regardless of what the decision is. If the woman chooses to keep the baby then the man who impregnated her needs to also shoulder some of the burden for the life he helped create even if it was an accident. If the woman chooses to have an abortion against the man's wishes then that sucks for him but he can't make her carry his child against her wishes.

It sucks but there is no other answer to this other than life isn't fair, all actions have consequences, and if you aren't prepared to deal with them then you need to not have sex. The children who need support, who did not choose to be conceived, deserve more than some guy saying he didn't mean to so he can just walk away from any and all obligations. Honestly, financial support is pretty much the bare minimum in my eyes.

jackson290721 · June 2013

HilarityEnsued:
jackson290721:
For example, my dad has, last I checked , 5 children. All with different moms. He does not see any of us, did not plan for any of us, and basically did not want any of us. (No woman tricked him BTW, all us kids were product of failed condoms - you would think he would have realized condoms are not 100% by child #3 or so...) He has a pretty hefty child support bill each month. He is still paying back support on me.
Holy ish...

Right?

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

jackson290721:
I'm curious. To the people saying the man should be able to opt out of the responsibility, how many times should he be able to do this? Is there a limit?

For example, my dad has, last I checked , 5 children. All with different moms. He does not see any of us, did not plan for any of us, and basically did not want any of us. (No woman tricked him BTW, all us kids were product of failed condoms - you would think he would have realized condoms are not 100% by child #3 or so...) He has a pretty hefty child support bill each month. He is still paying back support on me.
Anyway, how many kids should a man be able to "back out of" for lack of a better term? Should there be a limit?

Out of curiosity, did the women he had kids #2-5 with know he had a child/children from a previous relationship that he failed to support? Were they committed relationships or casual flings?

I know this comes off like I'm blaming the woman, and I don't mean for it to be, but there is a point where a woman has to know if she's sleeping with a guy that's had other kids with other women that he doesn't support, that things probably won't be different if she gets pregnant.

Smootchy · June 2013

tough situation.

Personally I think (and since I've never been in that situation, my feelings very well could change) if I got pregnant and the guy wanted NOTHING to do with the kid, I would have to accept the fact that he wouldn't be part of it physically or financially. I wouldn't expect him to pay anything for the kid he wanted nothing to do with nor would I want him in my life at all.

If I got pregnant and my SO and I decided to have the baby, then later down the road we didn't work out.... Then I would expect him to pay child support.

jackson290721 · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
jackson290721:
I'm curious. To the people saying the man should be able to opt out of the responsibility, how many times should he be able to do this? Is there a limit?

For example, my dad has, last I checked , 5 children. All with different moms. He does not see any of us, did not plan for any of us, and basically did not want any of us. (No woman tricked him BTW, all us kids were product of failed condoms - you would think he would have realized condoms are not 100% by child #3 or so...) He has a pretty hefty child support bill each month. He is still paying back support on me.
Anyway, how many kids should a man be able to "back out of" for lack of a better term? Should there be a limit?
Oh man...your Dad needs to check expiration dates or switch or switch to Magnums with that many failed condoms...wtf lol.

haha yes, yes he does. For the short amount of time he was around, he swore up and down he was going to get snipped.....two kids later, still not snipped. That was 10 years ago, so I have no idea if he did finally get it done. Or if I have a ton more half siblings running around.

SunnyMeg1 · June 2013

kiraliz2:
I'm confused. So you think women should have to pay child support but not men in this situation?

No, that as long as men have to, women should, too, if they decide to leave the baby to be raised by the father. It was just addressing a comment made awhile back in the thread that I probably should have passed on because the discussion had moved on.

jackson290721 · June 2013

SunnyMeg1:
jackson290721:
I'm curious. To the people saying the man should be able to opt out of the responsibility, how many times should he be able to do this? Is there a limit?

For example, my dad has, last I checked , 5 children. All with different moms. He does not see any of us, did not plan for any of us, and basically did not want any of us. (No woman tricked him BTW, all us kids were product of failed condoms - you would think he would have realized condoms are not 100% by child #3 or so...) He has a pretty hefty child support bill each month. He is still paying back support on me.
Anyway, how many kids should a man be able to "back out of" for lack of a better term? Should there be a limit?
Out of curiosity, did the women he had kids #2-5 with know he had a child/children from a previous relationship that he failed to support? Were they committed relationships or casual flings?
I know this comes off like I'm blaming the woman, and I don't mean for it to be, but there is a point where a woman has to know if she's sleeping with a guy that's had other kids with other women that he doesn't support, that things probably won't be different if she gets pregnant.

I was child #1, my mom and him were teens, dating and the condom broke. I have no idea about woman #2, chances are she didn't know, I think they were more of a fling. She didn't want much to do with my dad once the baby was born. Woman #3 and #4 did know. I met them both in the 6 monthsish that he was in my life when I was around 9. They were both relationships. (he left woman #3 for woman #4 shortly after their son was born) Woman #4 got pregnant shortly after they started dating. Not sure whatever happened with her, I bowed out of that soap opera around 10ish. However, when I was 17 he contacted me on FB and I found out I had a new sibling with another woman, #5. No idea what she knew.

haha it sounds so much like a soap opera or jerry springer episode when I type it all out.

ITGurl0626 · June 2013

SouthSideDrea:
Yes. Child support isn't for the mother it's for the child. There is always a risk of pregnancy when 2 people have sex. They both chose to roll the dice. Tough luck.

ITA with this....

LuckyDad · June 2013

I believe a woman's right to choose extends to the right to choose to keep a fetus.

I don't morally feel I can support abortion rights without supporting the right to not to abort.

At that point, I feel like what is best for the baby is what matters most. That would include child support payments, which really are a pittance compared to the cost of raising a child.

Honestly I feel like men should not be having unprotected sex with women they don't trust completely for a host of reasons. Yes, condoms can break, but they're pretty, pretty good overall. If a man has sex with a woman without a condom he doesn't trust completely and hasn't discussed what she'd do if an oopsie happened... my sympathy is limited to non-existent.

acaudill75 · June 2013

SouthSideDrea:
Yes. Child support isn't for the mother it's for the child. There is always a risk of pregnancy when 2 people have sex. They both chose to roll the dice. Tough luck.

Word.

Kitiara5512 · June 2013

Yes. His responsibility to provide came into play the second they had sex. She may choose to keep but when having sex he knew that a pregnancy was a possibility. The only way to make it really clear you don't want a kid is to get a vasectomy and/or to not have sex.

LuckyDad · June 2013

Holls2011:
DH saw SS's mom in HS. They broke up and got back together for a "fun night" in a hotel when SS was conceived. DH asked BM if she was on birth control. She said she was and they had sex. SS was conceived that night. BM had actually not put in her new nuva-ring and kept the old one in. She claims she did it to "postpone her period", he obviously believes she tricked him. He didn't want a child at the time, but she said she was going to keep him.
DH pays child support and we have SS every weekend. While DH should have worn a condom, I cannot help but think it was a $hitty way to have a child with someone.
By the way, we love SS and DH wouldn't trade him for the world.

I agree this sort of deception is pretty crappy. At the same time, even if your husband was young and dumb, he should have known she shouldn't really have been trusted. Were I him, I would have been worried about who else she was banging and what she might have picked up the process and worn a condom just for that :P

cbidt*sgirl · June 2013

krptcmschfmkr128:
Littledeer84:
krptcmschfmkr128:
I think he shouldn't have to pay support.nbsp; What if it were the other way around; he wanted the child, and she didn't? She'd be able to terminate the pregnancy, regardless of his wanting to care for the child, even if it's without her help. Accidents happen. A woman is allowed to decide she doesn't want a baby, but a man gets "stuck" with the responsibility regardless of his feelings?nbsp; That doesn't seem fair. ETA: Not to mention the women who trick a man into getting them pregnant oh I'm on birth control, etc etc.nbsp;
What about him changing his mind? Oh yeah honey, lets have a baby. Oh wait, nevermind, I didn't really mean it.
OP's statement was adamant from the very beginning that he didn't want a child.

He should have adamantly said no to sex then. There is always a chance of pregnancy, and with that chance comes the responsibility of paying for the support of a child.

acaudill75 · June 2013

If the man is an pro athlete or in the entertainment industry, then yes, he should have to pay. Otherwise, no.

(Obviously, my sarcasm font is on bolded.)

Kitiara5512 · June 2013

izzourclue:
Fine, take her to court. Charge her with fraud. Baby still needs to eat. He can choose not to stick his peen in her vagina. I think this should be part of sex education. BC fails sometimes. It's safer sex, not safe sex. Just because you use condoms, BCPs, pull and pray whatever, there is an inherent failure rate. Even if everyone is on the up and up, does everything right, a pregnancy can happen. A man should not be able to say, "but, but, I wore a condom!" (insert whiny voice) and get out of his responsibility to the result of his actions. If he was raped or he can prove his sperm was stolen, then no he shouldn't have to pay for the child.

True story. H's ex was not supposed to be able to get pregnant. Her uterus was all jacked up from some medical crap and she almost never ovulated. Guess who got preggers anyway (by her H years after MH and she broke up).

Another true story: SILCBW had her first kid after getting pregnant on BC and switched BC type. She still popped out two more one year apart because her BC (bc pill the first and second time, an iud the third) failed.

Yup, *** happens. The only thing 100% guaranteed is abstinence. If you're in your twenties, you should be mature enough to figure that out.

Kitiara5512 · June 2013

krptcmschfmkr128:
Scout2005:
krptcmschfmkr128: Because you cannot force a woman to go through a pregnancy and delivery. She is physically involved in the event in a way a man simply isn't.
Again, it's choice and consequence. You choose to have sex, you accept the inherent potential outcomes.

But you can't use that argument for one party, yet not the other. It's a double standard. The woman should have to accept the potential outcomes, as well, if she's a willing participant in the sex, if you want to apply it to the man as well.
I'm sorry, you're not going to change my mind that a man should have to support the child he doesn't want. I get that the child didn't "ask to be born" but that doesn't mean the woman should be allowed to make decisions for the man.

But she is taking responsibility for the kid too - by raising the baby and not terminating or putting up for adoption. She isn't asking for his time, she is not asking for him to stick around and do stuff, nope just the bare minimum of child support. If he cant do that, shouldn't have had sex. She isn't getting out scott free no matter what decision she makes, whether its to abort (OMG I'm a baby killer) to adoption (somewhere out there is my baby and I will always wonder what he/she is doing) or keeping (this is my kid and I am going to raise him/her). She is paying the consequences of having sex. Seems the only consequence the guy gets is the child support, so he needs to *** suck it up and deal.

Personally I think even if she terminated or put up for adoption, the guy should still be legally required to pay for at least half of what would be prenatal costs up to birth.

LuckyDad · June 2013

ItsAllGravy7:
Like condoms, or vasectomies?

It's actually very hard for a childless man to get a vasectomy. I have a friend who tried and couldn't find a doc who would do it (he was late 20s). I also have a friend who hooked up with a guy who had a vasectomy when he was in his early 20s after a girl faked a pregnancy on him.

There's at least one new method in stage 3 clinical trials in India. It has its upsides and downsides.

acaudill75 · June 2013

LoisLayn23:
acaudill75:

If the man is an pro athlete or in the entertainment industry, then yes, he should have to pay. Otherwise, no.

(Obviously, my sarcasm font is on bolded.)

I do laugh when he gets to pay 25k a month to some rando in Iowa though.

Are you getting 25k from a pro athlete??? That would be awesome.

missyishere · June 2013

krptcmschfmkr128:
FWIW, my sister was "that" kid who's dad didn't want anything to do with her. I mean, the man would have rather raised me than his own kid. As soon as he found out my mom was pregnant, he bailed. He paid child support, and it tore my sister up knowing that the only reason he gave her any sort of "support" was because he was obligated to by the courts. She would have rather he just not been involved, period, and our step-dad is her "Dad." (ETA: So my opinion isn't based on just a blind view and is partially skewed because it's based on watching my little sister tear herself apart over the fact that he knew where she lived, had the chances to see her (court hearings, etc), and didn't want anything to do with her. I think it's much easier on the child to just have no dealings, what-so-ever. )
I'm sure there are kids who feel completely opposite of her, but I think it should be looked into what sort of a psychological impact it has on the kids of that situation.

That argument is irrelevant to this conversation as far as I'm concerned. But... it's better to receive nothing financially (along with no physical assistance), because of the possible future psychological concerns? It sucks what your sister went through, and my situation wasn't much different, but my mother would have been damned if she wasn't going to hold my father responsible in some way for their mutual action in conceiving me. FWIW, my dad and I have a great relationship now.

proudworkingmom82 · June 2013

Yes he's still responsible because regardless of whether he wants the baby or not it's too late he's already created a life.

Runaway22 · June 2013

fredalina:
I didn't read all the answers, so sorry if this has been said.
A woman's right to an abortion is supposed to be about her rights to her body. If she doesn't want to puke, get fat, be forced to potentially lose income, risk complications up to and including death, and then endure childbirth and recovery, she shouldn't be forced to, right? That's a primary part of the pro choice movement.
The father faces none of the above. The only thin he has in common with the mother is a moral and financial obligation to be a parent and provide for the child. This the man has no rights to end the pregnancy. And fwiw, a woman who wants to place a baby for adoption against the father's consent cannot do so either, which is similar to what the man's situation in this is. If a woman has, or adopts for that matter, a baby, and then decides she doesn't want to parent, she still has to pay child support.
Outside of the woman's right to end a PREGNANCY, which is considered in the law to be a medical condition, the man and woman are in the same boat financially and should both be financially responsible, as well as morally.

And once again... Fred said it best.

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