UO Thursday

Soleil3 · May 2013

mrsf123:
V&G101808:
mrsf123:

I think that most of the time, when parents spank, they do so because they're angry and frustrated and don't know how else to handle the situation.

But I think that all it teaches a child is that when they're angry and frustrated, they can hit someone.

That's not the lesson I want my kid to learn....

I wouldn't agree that it's most of the time, but I do think that the above does happen often. However, I think spanking can be used as a proper form of discipline when executed correctly.

Like I mentioned before - my dad would sit us down first and we'd go over what we did wrong, why we were getting spanked, etc. And in my specific situation, we never got hit over "stupid" things. Dad always gave us our fair share of warnings and when you crossed the line then you deserved to be disciplined.

I guess all in all I think my dad was a good example (if you will) of how spanking CAN work. Is it for everyone? No. But it did work with me, yep - sure did!
OK I'll modify to say that most of the spanking I've seen...
But my question for the other poster applies to you too. If your father was able to sit you down and go over what you did wrong, etc, wasn't that sufficient? I mean, my understanding of the point of time outs is to get your kid to calm the eff down and get them out of the situation that's making them misbehave. If your father was able to effectively sit you down and discuss what was happening, it seems to me that the spanking was redundant, and perhaps a way to show his authority over you in a way that would personally make me feel uncomfortable in my home. Again, for me in my home.

I'm going to answer, for some kids, talking is plenty sufficient. For others, it isn't.

Time outs change in intent with age. When they are really young, you use it to calm and distract, but as they get older, you use it as a consequence, ie you are missing out on X because you did Y.

amandarins · May 2013

When women come to Las Vegas and wear outfits that allow their cheeks and vagina hang out...because after all, this is Vegas and you can so totally pull it off. Also, when women who do not know how to walk in heels insist on wearing them anyway...do these bishes know they walk like a damn T Rex?

coraggiosa · May 2013

I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.

I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.
I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.

Because scientifically, there is no line drawn between spanking out of anger, hitting with a belt, or using spanking as a tool the way it is supposed to be done. The research also doesn't take into consideration the shitton of other aspects of parenting and discipline that go into raising a child.

As for kids getting physical, unless pretty much every mother (or father) is a closet child spanker, I've never met a child who doesn't use physical force to try to get his or her way at some point in their life.

rfrazier611 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.
I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.

I think I can answer the research question. Medical research (good, reliable medical research) is generally done so that all variables, besides the one being studied, are carefully controlled. Medical researchers record observations and tabulate results using numbers, and usually these studies are replicated many many times on many populations before anyone starts making any sort of conclusions.
Social research is a different animal. Much of the data in social research comes from participants' self-reporting, not from researchers observing behaviors. So, there is a margin of reporting error. Also, the very nature of society makes it 100% impossible to control for all variables in a study. So, you run into the "correlation does not equal causation" problem. Sure, these studies find that children who were spanked tend to act out, but these studies cannot take into account all of the other variables in that child's life. One of my professors illustrated this problem perfectly:
Professor: "Is everyone in here wearing shoes?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "Does everyone in here consider themselves to be a good musician?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "There you go. Wearing shoes makes you a good musician."

All research, especially social research, should be read with a skeptical eye and taken with a grain of salt.

Cosmic+Love · May 2013

breezalina82:
nnikki10:
I dunno if I have done this one but men in skinny jeans or v neck tshirts or too much hair "product"...yucky!!
YES YES YES!!!! It should be banned.

Yep! These aren't men. They are boys.

coraggiosa · May 2013

rfrazier611:
coraggiosa:
I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.
I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.

I think I can answer the research question. Medical research (good, reliable medical research) is generally done so that all variables, besides the one being studied, are carefully controlled. Medical researchers record observations and tabulate results using numbers, and usually these studies are replicated many many times on many populations before anyone starts making any sort of conclusions.
Social research is a different animal. Much of the data in social research comes from participants' self-reporting, not from researchers observing behaviors. So, there is a margin of reporting error. Also, the very nature of society makes it 100% impossible to control for all variables in a study. So, you run into the "correlation does not equal causation" problem. Sure, these studies find that children who were spanked tend to act out, but these studies cannot take into account all of the other variables in that child's life. One of my professors illustrated this problem perfectly:
Professor: "Is everyone in here wearing shoes?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "Does everyone in here consider themselves to be a good musician?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "There you go. Wearing shoes makes you a good musician."

All research, especially social research, should be read with a skeptical eye and taken with a grain of salt.

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.

I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.

How many kids do you have and how old are they?

coraggiosa · May 2013

Soleil3:
coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.
How many kids do you have and how old are they?

Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.

I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because it's their own business.

ETA: Anyone interested in reading about spanking and other forms of discipline can read this guide from the AAP:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723.full

In the section on spanking, it actually does differentiate between spanking and more violent forms of hitting a child.

mrsf123 · May 2013

Soleil3:
coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.
How many kids do you have and how old are they?

I find this comment ridiculous. So if she had kids, she'd spank them because that's what happens after you have kids? I have kids and I agree with her. I don't spank and won't spank, no matter what they do, how misbehaved they are, etc. I think there's always a better way. Your comment takes the whole "you'll see when you have kids" to a whole new level. We're not talking about a "My kid will never have a fit in Target" comment here.

V&G101808 · May 2013

mrsf123:
V&G101808:
mrsf123:

I think that most of the time, when parents spank, they do so because they're angry and frustrated and don't know how else to handle the situation.

But I think that all it teaches a child is that when they're angry and frustrated, they can hit someone.

That's not the lesson I want my kid to learn....

I wouldn't agree that it's most of the time, but I do think that the above does happen often. However, I think spanking can be used as a proper form of discipline when executed correctly.

Like I mentioned before - my dad would sit us down first and we'd go over what we did wrong, why we were getting spanked, etc. And in my specific situation, we never got hit over "stupid" things. Dad always gave us our fair share of warnings and when you crossed the line then you deserved to be disciplined.

I guess all in all I think my dad was a good example (if you will) of how spanking CAN work. Is it for everyone? No. But it did work with me, yep - sure did!

OK I'll modify to say that most of the spanking I've seen...

But my question for the other poster applies to you too. If your father was able to sit you down and go over what you did wrong, etc, wasn't that sufficient? I mean, my understanding of the point of time outs is to get your kid to calm the eff down and get them out of the situation that's making them misbehave. If your father was able to effectively sit you down and discuss what was happening, it seems to me that the spanking was redundant, and perhaps a way to show his authority over you in a way that would personally make me feel uncomfortable in my home. Again, for me in my home.

I totally understand and respect this. I said it earlier that I personally don't know how I will discipline my LO once he arrives - so I'm not saying I'm going to spank him, I'm just not against people who do (correctly).

A talk is a talk. IMO the spanking was reinforcing what we discussed and a hard reminder of what happens when you're bad. My parents NEVER used time out and I've always thought of it as being a little silly... but time outs are also not common in my family circle. I've only seen it used with some friends and their children, and from what I have personally seen it doesn't have much of a lasting effect.

For me, tt was an association thing. The talk I didn't mind - the spanking, yeah, I learned from it and learned not to do X again or else I'd get hit again. And it was in no way a cowarding fear of 'OMG I'm afraid of dad' or 'OMG I'm so scared of moving because I'm going to get hit'. Maybe I was a smart kid and I realized that if I did X and it resulted in spanking, well maybe I shouldn't do X again.

Ktbug613 · May 2013

Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.
I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.
Because scientifically, there is no line drawn between spanking out of anger, hitting with a belt, or using spanking as a tool the way it is supposed to be done. The research also doesn't take into consideration the shitton of other aspects of parenting and discipline that go into raising a child.
As for kids getting physical, unless pretty much every mother (or father) is a closet child spanker, I've never met a child who doesn't use physical force to try to get his or her way at some point in their life.

Again I agree with Sol. Research can be very biased and most spanking "research" doesn't give the whole picture. Most of the time kids who are aggressive truly due to spanking, the spanking wasn't used in the correct manner. When it comes to these studies you don't know what level of spanking was used. Was it the sole source of discipline? How hard and with what was the child spanked? was the child spanked mindlessly or was the spanking paired with a talk to ensure the child understands why they are in trouble and how they could better handle the situation next time?

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because its their own business.

I don't know that you're a FTM, actually.

What I do know is that being so set in never ever using a method of parenting for one abstract reason or another (not spanking, but shame and embarrassment, for example) will bite you in the arse. When it comes down to it, if you want to raise a productive and happy well adjusted child, you will as a parent, use whatever tools you need to tailored to your child to do so. Most of it, if you're lucky, will be from action, from them seeing how you act and react and mimicking that, but some will be the low dirty stuff, manipulation, bribery, shaming, yelling, straight up "Because I said so", because its just how it works. But its easy as pie to parent a child you don't have yet, we've all been there.

As for your curious about the scientific aspect, I and another PP already touched on that.

Soleil3 · May 2013

mrsf123:
I find this comment ridiculous. So if she had kids, she'd spank them because that's what happens after you have kids? I have kids and I agree with her. I don't spank and won't spank, no matter what they do, how misbehaved they are, etc. I think there's always a better way. Your comment takes the whole "you'll see when you have kids" to a whole new level. We're not talking about a "My kid will never have a fit in Target" comment here.

DId I say anything about her spanking even if she said she wouldn't? Or are you making a ton of assumptions?

Ktbug613 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
rfrazier611:
coraggiosa:
I am interested in one thing regarding the spanking debate. Most people here seem to value scientific research (see our past debates on vaccines and other things). Why is spanking different? Research on spanking has shown that children who are spanked have a tendency to be more aggressive, have more mental health problems, and are more likely to be antisocial. Children who are spanked are also more likely to use the same techniques in disagreements with other children, namely getting physical.
I completely agree that different children require different disciplinary techniques. That's absolutely true. But to be honest, considering the research, I would never spank my child. I have a young cousin who is currently spanked as a form of discipline, The spankings themselves are mild and not painful, and while it does control her behavior, I do not think the shame and embarrassment that result from the spanking are effective ways to discipline a child. I really don't want to try to control my child's behavior through shame and embarrassment, but that's me.

I think I can answer the research question. Medical research (good, reliable medical research) is generally done so that all variables, besides the one being studied, are carefully controlled. Medical researchers record observations and tabulate results using numbers, and usually these studies are replicated many many times on many populations before anyone starts making any sort of conclusions.
Social research is a different animal. Much of the data in social research comes from participants' self-reporting, not from researchers observing behaviors. So, there is a margin of reporting error. Also, the very nature of society makes it 100% impossible to control for all variables in a study. So, you run into the "correlation does not equal causation" problem. Sure, these studies find that children who were spanked tend to act out, but these studies cannot take into account all of the other variables in that child's life. One of my professors illustrated this problem perfectly:
Professor: "Is everyone in here wearing shoes?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "Does everyone in here consider themselves to be a good musician?"
Class: "Yes."
Professor: "There you go. Wearing shoes makes you a good musician."

All research, especially social research, should be read with a skeptical eye and taken with a grain of salt.

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.

I don't want to discredit scientific research, it is a very valuable tool, but you do realize that every study published is not automatically accurate right? And that research and statistics and very easily be manipulated to one side or another? If you just take every study at face value your not doing yourself any favors. There are a ton of "studies" out there that arent done by credible sources, that aren't even done correctly and that leave out certain things to make their findings fit an agenda. You have to look at who did the study, how it was done, how fair the sample was, and how it was received across the science/medical world on average. Did you know something as simple as a sample size being too small can completely change the outcome of a study? even if everything else is done to a T.

coraggiosa · May 2013

Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because its their own business.
I don't know that you're a FTM, actually.
What I do know is that being so set in never ever using a method of parenting for one abstract reason or another (not spanking, but shame and embarrassment, for example) will bite you in the arse. When it comes down to it, if you want to raise a productive and happy well adjusted child, you will as a parent, use whatever tools you need to tailored to your child to do so. Most of it, if you're lucky, will be from action, from them seeing how you act and react and mimicking that, but some will be the low dirty stuff, manipulation, bribery, shaming, yelling, straight up "Because I said so", because its just how it works. But its easy as pie to parent a child you don't have yet, we've all been there.
As for your curious about the scientific aspect, I and another PP already touched on that.

I figured it was pretty obvious from my siggy that I'm a FTM. In any case, I understand what you are saying, at least in regard to shame and embarrassment. I understand that both can result from other forms of discipline and not just spanking (you can of course shame and embarrass a child with words, as well), but for me, the combination of physically striking a child in order to shame them into behaving is just not something I'm willing to do. I recognize I might say something out of frustration that might shame or embarrass my kid (although I obviously would prefer to avoid this, but I'm also realistic), and I by no means think my parenting will go the way I see it in my head. It is just on this one thing that I can confidently say "I will never do that". That's all.

V&G101808 · May 2013

I'm putting on my flame retardant suit now...

I think some people OVER RESEARCH and take everything they read online too seriously. I really, honestly, do believe that part of this motherhood thing will come naturally. And yeah, flame me, but our moms did it without the help of google - and we're all pretty normal, right?

I've done my fair share of reading but I don't take everything to heart. I personally think that some of the recent studies on various topics come off sounding kind of crunchy/hippie. [They always end up reminding me how every kid deserves a medal whether you did something worthy of one or not].

I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T try to prepare yourself or that you SHOULDN'T do any research. I'm just saying that because it's written up by some dude who calls himself a doctor, it doesn't mean it's applicable to everyone or true for everyone.

Simple/easy example: I bought the baby bargains book. Am I going to buy everything it recommends simply because they claim to be the SME? No.

And this goes into the spanking discussion: like Soleil mentioned, have those studies even been conducted properly? Yeah - if you're hitting your kid out of frustration, anger, etc. then yeah, your kid will probably have some issues growing up. But I stick to what I say that when appropriate and done correctly (doesn't apply to every kid/every situation) spanking CAN be an appropriate form of discipline.

coraggiosa · May 2013

Ktbug613:
*snip* (I hope this works, I suck at cutting down quote trees)
I don't want to discredit scientific research, it is a very valuable tool, but you do realize that every study published is not automatically accurate right? And that research and statistics and very easily be manipulated to one side or another? If you just take every study at face value your not doing yourself any favors. There are a ton of "studies" out there that arent done by credible sources, that aren't even done correctly and that leave out certain things to make their findings fit an agenda. You have to look at who did the study, how it was done, how fair the sample was, and how it was received across the science/medical world on average. Did you know something as simple as a sample size being too small can completely change the outcome of a study? even if everything else is done to a T.

Absolutely I know all of this. I'm not referring to studies that are shoddy. In one of my replies above, I added a link to the Guide for Effective Discipline that was done by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is widely accepted as a credible source of information and research. They do not recommend spanking as a form of discipline, and recommend that parents use other forms of discipline instead.

nnikki10 · May 2013

Cosmic+Love:
breezalina82:
nnikki10:
I dunno if I have done this one but men in skinny jeans or v neck tshirts or too much hair "product"...yucky!!
YES YES YES!!!! It should be banned.
Yep! These aren't men. They are boys.

I concur

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because its their own business.
I don't know that you're a FTM, actually.
What I do know is that being so set in never ever using a method of parenting for one abstract reason or another (not spanking, but shame and embarrassment, for example) will bite you in the arse. When it comes down to it, if you want to raise a productive and happy well adjusted child, you will as a parent, use whatever tools you need to tailored to your child to do so. Most of it, if you're lucky, will be from action, from them seeing how you act and react and mimicking that, but some will be the low dirty stuff, manipulation, bribery, shaming, yelling, straight up "Because I said so", because its just how it works. But its easy as pie to parent a child you don't have yet, we've all been there.
As for your curious about the scientific aspect, I and another PP already touched on that.
I figured it was pretty obvious from my siggy that I'm a FTM. In any case, I understand what you are saying, at least in regard to shame and embarrassment. I understand that both can result from other forms of discipline and not just spanking (you can of course shame and embarrass a child with words, as well), but for me, the combination of physically striking a child in order to shame them into behaving is just not something I'm willing to do. I recognize I might say something out of frustration that might shame or embarrass my kid (although I obviously would prefer to avoid this, but I'm also realistic), and I by no means think my parenting will go the way I see it in my head. It is just on this one thing that I can confidently say "I will never do that". That's all.

I don't have a problem with that. But I just didn't agree with the whole, shame and embarrassment thing. Spanking isn't about shame and embarrassment, its about a consequence that works for some kids because its just something they don't like. There can be a multitude of reasons they don't like it.

And can you tell from my siggy I'm a third time mom? I don't make assumptions about that from siggys because not everyone has their life story included

Ktbug613 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
Ktbug613:
*snip* (I hope this works, I suck at cutting down quote trees)
I don't want to discredit scientific research, it is a very valuable tool, but you do realize that every study published is not automatically accurate right? And that research and statistics and very easily be manipulated to one side or another? If you just take every study at face value your not doing yourself any favors. There are a ton of "studies" out there that arent done by credible sources, that aren't even done correctly and that leave out certain things to make their findings fit an agenda. You have to look at who did the study, how it was done, how fair the sample was, and how it was received across the science/medical world on average. Did you know something as simple as a sample size being too small can completely change the outcome of a study? even if everything else is done to a T.
Absolutely I know all of this. I'm not referring to studies that are shoddy. In one of my replies above, I added a link to the Guide for Effective Discipline that was done by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is widely accepted as a credible source of information and research. They do not recommend spanking as a form of discipline, and recommend that parents use other forms of discipline instead.

I will admit I didn't read the study, because its not going to change my mind in the least. The problem with their study and any other study on the matter is that when used correctly (and taking into account different approaches for different kids) spanking can and does work just as well as other forms of punishment there are plenty of kids as proof....so....yea somewhere their study is flawed. I think most often parents aren't using it in the correct manner and like someone else said there is no way to isolate spanking and how a child turns out. There are too many other environmental factors that can't be accounted for. Behavioral studies are not black and white there will always be a margin of error.

P.S Im not discrediting other forms of punishment. Plenty of other forms work well too and spanking would not be the first form of punishment I go to. But for some children and for some behaviors its warranted IMO

Soleil3 · May 2013

Ktbug613:
coraggiosa:
Ktbug613:
*snip* (I hope this works, I suck at cutting down quote trees)
I don't want to discredit scientific research, it is a very valuable tool, but you do realize that every study published is not automatically accurate right? And that research and statistics and very easily be manipulated to one side or another? If you just take every study at face value your not doing yourself any favors. There are a ton of "studies" out there that arent done by credible sources, that aren't even done correctly and that leave out certain things to make their findings fit an agenda. You have to look at who did the study, how it was done, how fair the sample was, and how it was received across the science/medical world on average. Did you know something as simple as a sample size being too small can completely change the outcome of a study? even if everything else is done to a T.
Absolutely I know all of this. I'm not referring to studies that are shoddy. In one of my replies above, I added a link to the Guide for Effective Discipline that was done by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is widely accepted as a credible source of information and research. They do not recommend spanking as a form of discipline, and recommend that parents use other forms of discipline instead.

I will admit I didn't read the study, because its not going to change my mind in the least. The problem with their study and any other study on the matter is that when used correctly (and taking into account different approaches for different kids) spanking can and does work just as well as other forms of punishment there are plenty of kids as proof....so....yea somewhere their study is flawed. I think most often parents aren't using it in the correct manner and like someone else said there is no way to isolate spanking and how a child turns out. There are too many other environmental factors that can't be accounted for. Behavioral studies are not black and white there will always be a margin of error.

P.S Im not discrediting other forms of punishment. Plenty of other forms work well too and spanking would not be the first form of punishment I go to. But for some children and for some behaviors its warranted IMO

The AAP study is shoddy as well, and its based off of harsh punishment, not spanking.

This article is worth reading and sums up well my issues on relying on a single source or a biased study for social issues like parenting

https://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/spanking_and_mental_illness_a_new_study_does_not_link_the_two_.html

coraggiosa · May 2013

Soleil3:
*snip*
I don't have a problem with that. But I just didn't agree with the whole, shame and embarrassment thing. Spanking isn't about shame and embarrassment, its about a consequence that works for some kids because its just something they don't like. There can be a multitude of reasons they don't like it.
And can you tell from my siggy I'm a third time mom? I don't make assumptions about that from siggys because not everyone has their life story included

Heh, Soleil, you underestimate your own fame. I know you have other kids because I've read about them on here

I suppose we just have different views on spanking, which is totally fine. It is likely that my experience with spanking as a child and as an adult seeing kids I know spanked has greatly influenced my view of it, along with the recommendations from the AAP that I posted above.

Like I said, this is a personal thing for me. It's a line I won't cross, but if others are comfortable with it or have had better experiences with spanking in that past, I'm not judging them, even if that's what people might interpret it as.

coraggiosa · May 2013

Soleil3:
Ktbug613:
coraggiosa:
Ktbug613:
*snip* (I hope this works, I suck at cutting down quote trees)
I don't want to discredit scientific research, it is a very valuable tool, but you do realize that every study published is not automatically accurate right? And that research and statistics and very easily be manipulated to one side or another? If you just take every study at face value your not doing yourself any favors. There are a ton of "studies" out there that arent done by credible sources, that aren't even done correctly and that leave out certain things to make their findings fit an agenda. You have to look at who did the study, how it was done, how fair the sample was, and how it was received across the science/medical world on average. Did you know something as simple as a sample size being too small can completely change the outcome of a study? even if everything else is done to a T.
Absolutely I know all of this. I'm not referring to studies that are shoddy. In one of my replies above, I added a link to the Guide for Effective Discipline that was done by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is widely accepted as a credible source of information and research. They do not recommend spanking as a form of discipline, and recommend that parents use other forms of discipline instead.

I will admit I didn't read the study, because its not going to change my mind in the least. The problem with their study and any other study on the matter is that when used correctly (and taking into account different approaches for different kids) spanking can and does work just as well as other forms of punishment there are plenty of kids as proof....so....yea somewhere their study is flawed. I think most often parents aren't using it in the correct manner and like someone else said there is no way to isolate spanking and how a child turns out. There are too many other environmental factors that can't be accounted for. Behavioral studies are not black and white there will always be a margin of error.

P.S Im not discrediting other forms of punishment. Plenty of other forms work well too and spanking would not be the first form of punishment I go to. But for some children and for some behaviors its warranted IMO
The AAP study is shoddy as well, and its based off of harsh punishment, not spanking.
This article is worth reading and sums up well my issues on relying on a single source or a biased study for social issues like parenting
https://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/spanking_and_mental_illness_a_new_study_does_not_link_the_two_.html

That's not the article I linked to above. The one I linked to was published before the study on mental illness, which I agree was shoddy work (it actually looks like the blog itself was commenting on the study in a slanted way, rather than the actual study being shoddy). It just is a guide on discipline and the recommendations of the AAP, which does not recommend spanking.

ETA: I do agree that the Slate article does sum up why it's a good idea to look at studies with a critical eye, particularly ones in the realm of psychology and behavior, as it is incredibly hard to control all variables. I do understand that there is a controversy among psychologists about spanking, although as I said, the AAP recommends against it.

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
*snip*
I don't have a problem with that. But I just didn't agree with the whole, shame and embarrassment thing. Spanking isn't about shame and embarrassment, its about a consequence that works for some kids because its just something they don't like. There can be a multitude of reasons they don't like it.
And can you tell from my siggy I'm a third time mom? I don't make assumptions about that from siggys because not everyone has their life story included
Heh, Soleil, you underestimate your own fame. I know you have other kids because I've read about them on here
I suppose we just have different views on spanking, which is totally fine. It is likely that my experience with spanking as a child and as an adult seeing kids I know spanked has greatly influenced my view of it, along with the recommendations from the AAP that I posted above.
Like I said, this is a personal thing for me. It's a line I won't cross, but if others are comfortable with it or have had better experiences with spanking in that past, I'm not judging them, even if that's what people might interpret it as.

Oh thats funny I have terrible people recall, I'll have to work on that.

Anywho, I'm pretty thrilled this spanking debate didn't completely go up in flames. We are so good

Soleil3 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
That's not the article I linked to above. The one I linked to was published before the study on mental illness, which I agree was shoddy work (it actually looks like the blog itself was commenting on the study in a slanted way, rather than the actual study being shoddy). It just is a guide on discipline and the recommendations of the AAP, which does not recommend spanking.

Gotcha, I assumed the AAP was basing their recommendation off that study.

I don't really go to the AAP for anything personally, so there's that.

WildRumpus · May 2013

Soleil3:

Anywho, I'm pretty thrilled this spanking debate didn't completely go up in flames. We are so good

Me too. I ::gasp:: considered DDing it quickly after posting it, before anyone replied. And like Coragosia (sorry if I totally butchered that!) said, it's not so much that I'm judging, it's just personal experience. If it works for you, go for it, I've just not ever seen it used as a truly effective form of discipline.

coraggiosa · May 2013

Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
*snip*
I don't have a problem with that. But I just didn't agree with the whole, shame and embarrassment thing. Spanking isn't about shame and embarrassment, its about a consequence that works for some kids because its just something they don't like. There can be a multitude of reasons they don't like it.
And can you tell from my siggy I'm a third time mom? I don't make assumptions about that from siggys because not everyone has their life story included
Heh, Soleil, you underestimate your own fame. I know you have other kids because I've read about them on here
I suppose we just have different views on spanking, which is totally fine. It is likely that my experience with spanking as a child and as an adult seeing kids I know spanked has greatly influenced my view of it, along with the recommendations from the AAP that I posted above.
Like I said, this is a personal thing for me. It's a line I won't cross, but if others are comfortable with it or have had better experiences with spanking in that past, I'm not judging them, even if that's what people might interpret it as.
Oh thats funny I have terrible people recall, I'll have to work on that.
Anywho, I'm pretty thrilled this spanking debate didn't completely go up in flames. We are so good

I'm glad it didn't go up in flames too, although I think it has to do with the participants rather than the topic itself, which is obviously controversial. No one really threw any bombs, which is important.

Although, now I feel like we jinxed it. Some troll will probably come in here now.

BelhurstBride · May 2013

To me, spanking isn't a form of discipline, it's a form of punishment. It's a way to scare a kid into doing/not doing something that same way ever again.

I have yet to encounter a behavior that I felt DD needed to be punished for. The only times purposely inflecting pain on her has entered my mine it was out of sheer frustration on my part, and I walked away. If I'm calmly trying to address a behavior I don't care for I never, ever consider purposely inflecting pain.

But, like CIO posts, spanking posts make me uncomfortable. Even though it involves kids I don't even know. Perhaps I'm a wuss of a parent.

I guess my UO is that I really don't understand how a parent could calmly arrive at the conclusion that purposely inflicting pain or purposely scaring a child is the best method in which to react to a situation.

lkobriant · May 2013

V&G101808:
I'm putting on my flame retardant suit now...

I think some people OVER RESEARCH and take everything they read online too seriously. I really, honestly, do believe that part of this motherhood thing will come naturally. And yeah, flame me, but our moms did it without the help of google - and we're all pretty normal, right?

I've done my fair share of reading but I don't take everything to heart. I personally think that some of the recent studies on various topics come off sounding kind of crunchy/hippie. [They always end up reminding me how every kid deserves a medal whether you did something worthy of one or not].

I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T try to prepare yourself or that you SHOULDN'T do any research. I'm just saying that because it's written up by some dude who calls himself a doctor, it doesn't mean it's applicable to everyone or true for everyone.

Simple/easy example: I bought the baby bargains book. Am I going to buy everything it recommends simply because they claim to be the SME? No.

And this goes into the spanking discussion: like Soleil mentioned, have those studies even been conducted properly? Yeah - if you're hitting your kid out of frustration, anger, etc. then yeah, your kid will probably have some issues growing up. But I stick to what I say that when appropriate and done correctly (doesn't apply to every kid/every situation) spanking CAN be an appropriate form of discipline.

I completely agree! As someone who has a full educational background in Child Development, Family Relationships, AND Social Work, I have listened to and researched this issue to DEATH!

Frankly, all research is flawed, period. Even scientific research, it's just flawed to a lesser degree. There will ALWAYS be variables that cannot be accounted for and there will always be biases that effect the outcome and results.

As far as spanking...yes, it has been proven to cause mental health issues, etc for children under a certain age (I believe it's 3) because they lack the cognitive ability to relate the spanking to the action they are being spanked for. For children over that age it has been shown to be an effective form of punishment if, as everyone has said, it is used properly. Which means that it is not used constantly, as a first line of punishment, and the child knows exactly why they are receiving this particular form of punishment. Sadly, this is the only way to get through to some children.

This being said, will I spank my child just because I was and I turned out fine? I don't know, I'm not presumptuous enough to say what I will and won't do because I simply don't know and refuse to rule anything out, but I certainly will not side eye anyone who does choose this.

And the argument about it only being effective because of embarrassment not pain....not necessarily true. Yes, spanking was embarrassing, even if it was just me and the parent doing the spanking in the room. However, it was also painful, whether marks were left or not, it is possible to inflict pain, no matter how mild, without leaving bruises or being considered abuse.

bluegirl0429 · May 2013

Ktbug613:
Jill9288:
I don't think spanking is a legitimate way to discipline children.

I guess my UO is that I do. Its not the sole way of disipline, and it should never go without an explanation about why the child is in trouble, just like you would with a time out but frankly I think sometimes its needed. We were spanked growing up and it worked!
**by spank I don't mean beat, it should get a childs attention and they shouldn't "like" it but it should never leave a mark or cause injury and I would never use spanking as a sole means of discipline, but on occasion when its called for, yes.

Edit:wording

Agreed. I think spanking can be used at times. I was spanked as a child. Turned out okay and honestly, it was really the only time I learned anything. My dad is a hard but a loving man. I will probably end up being the same way.

Obviously, I don't agree with child abuse or beating the child. But sometimes spanking is needed.

I have worked with children and used various methods (like positive reinforcement and time out) to get them to behave. Although that worked at times, there was just a handful of children that seriously needed to go to boot camp or be spanked themselves. There was no way of controlling them. Obviously, I would have lost my job if I touched them. I didn't but they definitely needed more discipline from their parents.

lorow0715 · May 2013

V&G101808:
mommabmb:
I think Kim kardashian is pretty. So there.
I think she's pretty. I just also happen to think she's dumber than a sack of bricks.

this.

karabear11 · May 2013

I hate when people come to the hospital because they are sick or injured and then refuse all care whether it be meds or tests or whatnot, and then complain that we are doing nothing to help them! Why did you come in just to complain and make my day miserable?

carlieanddanwedding · May 2013

karabear11:
I hate when people come to the hospital because they are sick or injured and then refuse all care whether it be meds or tests or whatnot, and then complain that we are doing nothing to help them! Why did you come in just to complain and make my day miserable?

Seconded! I work in a vet clinic, not a hospital, but we get the same thing. Your pet is not getting better because you are not doing what is required for it to get better. Stop blaming us!

I also hate people who expect us to treat their pet for free and are like, "But you're the HUMANE society!" Yeah, we are, and we'll do everything in our power to help you, but these things cost money!! Or the other one, "So you just want me to let my pet DIE?!" No, obviously not, we're just giving you options. It's not my fault you got a pet without considering vet expenses!!!

amarissa85 · May 2013

V&G101808:
Jill9288:
This. I was spanked too, and it did nothing but teach me to be better at not getting caught. All it does is teach a child to be afraid of the consequence, not why they shouldn't be doing the behavior that got them spanked to begin with.

It's different for everyone and I think your statement is too general and untrue for everyone.

I learned QUICKLY that doing X bad thing resulted in spanking - so, I would avoid doing X bad thing again. I agree it doesn't work for everyone (my brother learned more from being grounded) but it does work for some.

Dad wouldn't use the "we're doing this because we love you" line, he'd always sit us down first and go over why we were getting spanked. So I always knew WHY I was getting spanked and you bet I learned quickly to not do that again.

@ whooped then I wasn't going to do A again. I don't do the I do this because I love you either. A firm explanation of things and clarification that one understands is totally different from, we are doing this because we love you.

TurtleMomma · May 2013

carlieanddanwedding:
Seconded! I work in a vet clinic, not a hospital, but we get the same thing. Your pet is not getting better because you are not doing what is required for it to get better. Stop blaming us!I also hate people who expect us to treat their pet for free and are like, "But you're the HUMANE society!" Yeah, we are, and we'll do everything in our power to help you, but these things cost money!! Or the other one, "So you just want me to let my pet DIE?!" No, obviously not, we're just giving you options. It's not my fault you got a pet without considering vet expenses!!!nbsp;

Amen! I worked veterinary for almost 7 years and I know EXACTLY what you're talking about! Most of my experience is with exotics, IE anything not a domestic dog or domestic cat. Sometimes people would bring in hamsters and mice and such. We would diagnose it with X and give them a written estimate for treatment/procedures/medications, etc. I can't tell you the number of times people would stare at me and say, "You want me to spend HOW MUCH on a 6 dollar hamster?" And then get pissed for having to pay for an exam on a "6 dollar hamster".

When I worked regular dog and cat medicine, sometimes we would comp the exam if they agreed to pay the exam fee equivalent in meds or treatment, especially if we got the vibe that they would do nothing otherwise.

MinnesotaMomma91 · May 2013

MommyKristin88:
LAMuehlen:
I hate it when people dont tip after they tell you what a nice job you did. Um what? If you liked it at least tip.a dollar. Im sure people do.assume students in beauty school make commission. But we dont.

I am a server, and I deal with the same thing. People assume we make a nice hourly wage, but we don't. In my state all servers make $3.63/hour. Our tips are our livelihood. Once we pay taxes each pay period, that $3.63 is gone.

I especially love when people ask if i can accept tips and i say yes we can and then they dont tip

Ahtnamas6789 · May 2013

coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
 

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.  
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because it's their own business. 
ETA: Anyone interested in reading about spanking and other forms of discipline can read this guide from the AAP:
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723.full
In the section on spanking, it actually does differentiate between spanking and more violent forms of hitting a child.  

Thumbs up.

Solie I always see you stating scientific facts and research on here which I like but why is this different? There is scientific facts on why spanking a child is not the best form of discipline.
How can you chose to feel so strongly about supporting some scientific evidence and not supporting others?
And instead of coming back with a debatable response you come back with "how many kids do you have?" Just not like you, usually you do a good job at holding a debate with sound reason behind any response.

Sorry mobile bumping so some things got left out.

Ktbug613 · May 2013

Ahtnamas6789:
coraggiosa:
Soleil3:
coraggiosa:
 

I agree that research needs to be taken with a skeptical eye, but with a grain of salt? No way. Scientific research has shown us many things, so no, I do not take it with a grain of salt.
I understand that the studies don't differentiate between different kinds of spanking, but it's enough for me to not want to do it. Honestly, if people want to spank their kids, it's really none of my business. It really has no impact on me or my parenting. However, I just do not see how physical discipline that relies on shaming and embarrassing a child into behaving properly is helpful, which is what most people in this thread indicated - they weren't impelled to behave properly due to pain when spanked because it was never done hard enough, but it was embarrassing enough that they didn't want to repeat the behavior. I think embarrassing a child leads to a decrease in trust, personally. Regardless, as I said, this is a personal opinion, and each person is free to do what they like as long as they aren't crossing a certain line.  
How many kids do you have and how old are they?
Look, you know as well as I do that I'm a FTM. It doesn't mean that I don't know how I want to raise my children or that I can't have opinions on child-rearing because I don't have kids yet. It's not like I'm saying something stupid like I'll never let my kids eat fast food or something. I get STM+ get annoyed with that kind of stuff, but I personally feel this is different. This is something I feel incredibly strong about - for my OWN children, and my husband agrees with me, based on the research I have done and child development courses I have taken. That's it. You are free to think that I'll change my mind once I pop this one out and he/she mouths off to me or does something to frustrate the hell out of me, but I sincerely doubt it - on this particular topic at least. It's just a line I'm not willing to cross.
I was personally just curious as to why people dismiss the current scientific research out there for this specific topic, but I really honestly do not care how others discipline their children because it's their own business. 
ETA: Anyone interested in reading about spanking and other forms of discipline can read this guide from the AAP:
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723.full
In the section on spanking, it actually does differentiate between spanking and more violent forms of hitting a child.  

Thumbs up.

Solie I always see you stating scientific facts and research on here which I like but why is this different? There is scientific facts on why spanking a child is not the best form of discipline.
How can you chose to feel so strongly about supporting some scientific evidence and not supporting others?
And instead of coming back with a debatable response you come back with "how many kids do you have?" Just not like you, usually you do a good job at holding a debate with sound reason behind any response.

Sorry mobile bumping so some things got left out.

she already answered this. because social/behavior research is not black and white there are to many variables that can't be helped leaving a large margin of error and much of the current research on thus is shoddy at best. did you read the article she posted?

MinnesotaMomma91 · May 2013

breezalina82:
nnikki10:
I dunno if I have done this one but men in skinny jeans or v neck tshirts or too much hair "product"...yucky!!
YES YES YES!!!! It should be banned.  

I agree. Im sorry but men need to better educated on how to use hair product. Alittle goes a long way boys.

Also who jedi mibd tricked guys into thinking that we think skinny jeans are sexy. They arent. Buy some big boy pants now boys.

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UO Thursday

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