How did my kids get so bratty?

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

I swear, there is nothing but crying and tantrums around here lately. I feel like we are pretty consistent with discipline, but lately none of it is working. It's like they are trying to get into trouble. Example: my 4 year old asked for water during his snack of GIRL SCOUT COOKIES that I bought today. I got him a glass and he threw a fit that it was the wrong kind of cup. Really?!? I give you cookies as a snack as a treat and you b!tch about your water cup? This resulted in a full tantrum, tears, timeout, etc. And the 2 year old threw a fit when we told him no more cookies (he had 3!). So after the cookie snack, they are both in trouble, crying in their room. Why do I even try?

I am losing all my cool lately. I sort of wish it was 2 years from now so they were older and out of this whiny crybaby stuff. I am so frustrated and I feel like nothing ever just goes easily.

Please say I am not alone in this!

MrsGoodkat · March 2013

I'm not sure if it'll really get better in 2 years, I've seen my niece and nephews throw some epic whiny tantrums at 9 1/2, 8, and 6 years old, lol. I have no advice, just *hugs*.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

Spooko:
I'm guilty of falling into this pattern myself, but it really does more harm than good to set up the kids with more adult expectations. You're starting with the assumption that they should be kind and grateful in return for you giving them a treat. Kids simply don't come preprogramed to think this way. You have to teach them this. They don't inherently come with the thinking skills to say, "Oh, mom was so nice to me. I better behave in return." You really have to ease them into this thinking because naturally they're just all about themselves. They feel entitled to those cookies.

This is good advice, but I guess I am at a loss as to how to teach this. I feel like other parents have it together and we do not. Like we are fumbling. I want my kids to be respectful, say please and thank you, etc. They do this most of the time, but then there are days like today where it is just all bad behavior.

We also have a problem with toy throwing, trucks smashing into walls and breaking crayons (among other things). We take stuff away as punishment all the time, and keep it for a while. I make a big deal about giving it back a few days (or a week) later, and I swear, they are back to mistreating their stuff within 20 minutes. I am considering actually throwing toys away at this point, but I feel that is crossing over into crazy town.

hopecounts · March 2013

Have you tried love and logic?

it's good because it makes sense to kids that if you do x you get y since they are very success oriented.

That and just ignore it, just calmly say I know you're upset and when you calm down we can talk and walk away.

Once it doesn't work the kids will cut way back on tantruming.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

mbenit4:
Mine isn't a brat but JFC he is a cry baby. There I said it. It is SO's fault completely. He is a whole other child when he knows his daddy is around. Other people comment on how he never cries so I know I am not crazy. He doesn't do all of that when he is with just me or me and DD. When daddy is around OMG, whine or cry or both.

My oldest is a crybaby too. I have no idea why. I feel like I say "why are you crying?" or "Gavin, stop crying" about 100 times a day. Whenever he gets in trouble, he cries like we are wronging him. He has even started saying "you are mean" or "you are not my sweetheart." This kid cries over every minor thing ALL DAY LONG. Earlier I told him I would change the batteries in a toy "later" and he began to cry. JFC is right, I am at my wits end.

And then I watch episodes of intervention and wonder if he someday be on there blaming me for yelling at him when he was a fragile youngin.

hopecounts · March 2013

As far as teaching them to be respectful and kind make sure you are over modeling it for them.

say please and thank you for everything, make sure you are nice and polite to your DH/SO/Other adults and to them within reason.

And do your best to catch them being good, use reward charts/reward coins and focus on one or two behaviors at a time and when they exhibit it (not throwing toys, saying please) give them a star for the chart or a coin that they can save up to exchange for a reward/treat when they get enough.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

hopecounts:
Have you tried love and logic?
it's good because it makes sense to kids that if you do x you get y since they are very success oriented.
That and just ignore it, just calmly say I know you're upset and when you calm down we can talk and walk away.
Once it doesn't work the kids will cut way back on tantruming.

Is love and logic a book? Because if so, where do I get it? As for a basic reward system, we try, but we could probably improve here. We give our kids rewards for being good, but we don't really set it up like "if you are quiet and go to sleep, you will get a treat tomorrow." We usually wait and say "you were so good today, lets go get an ice cream" or whatever. Maybe we need to change the approach.

We do walk away from tantrums, and let them know that we won't be listening, and when they are done, then they can come out of their room or leave the time out chair. After the punishment, we tell them we love them and explain why they were in trouble and get them to say they are sorry for whatever they did. Then we do hugs.

I feel like we try really hard, but our kids keep being bad. It is like their ears don't work.

Unknown · March 2013

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hopecounts · March 2013

Yes it's a book and you should be able to get t from amazon or most book sellers.

yes for rewards to work it needs to be consistent and clear so they know that doing x will get them y 100% of the time without fail.

to start you may have to artificially catch them like as soon as they go to play wait just a minute then reward them for not throwing. Follow through anytime they are doing what you want and really watch and try to catch them and set up the reward from the start or even let the 4 yr old pick what his reward will be if/when he gets enough stars/coins and keep a chart on the fridge showing a pic of the reward and tracking his progress.

the 2 yr old may be harder since he may not get it yet.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

Spooko:
Mrs.Rose:
Spooko:
I'm guilty of falling into this pattern myself, but it really does more harm than good to set up the kids with more adult expectations. You're starting with the assumption that they should be kind and grateful in return for you giving them a treat. Kids simply don't come preprogramed to think this way. You have to teach them this. They don't inherently come with the thinking skills to say, "Oh, mom was so nice to me. I better behave in return." You really have to ease them into this thinking because naturally they're just all about themselves. They feel entitled to those cookies.
This is good advice, but I guess I am at a loss as to how to teach this. I feel like other parents have it together and we do not. Like we are fumbling. I want my kids to be respectful, say please and thank you, etc. They do this most of the time, but then there are days like today where it is just all bad behavior.
We also have a problem with toy throwing, trucks smashing into walls and breaking crayons (among other things). We take stuff away as punishment all the time, and keep it for a while. I make a big deal about giving it back a few days (or a week) later, and I swear, they are back to mistreating their stuff within 20 minutes. I am considering actually throwing toys away at this point, but I feel that is crossing over into crazy town.
Don't be too hard on yourself. It's easy to feel overwhelmed after a day like that. I think if your kids are well mannered most of the time, an off day is normal. We all have jerkish days. The key is to keep the firm boundaries and not tolerate it, while still not taking it personally. Easier said than done, I know.
I've liked 123 Magic, Love and Logic, and How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your Kids Will Talk.
As for lessons on gratitude, DS had to learn it the hard way. He was probably about the age of your oldest when we offered him a piece of candy one day. It was completely out of goodwill (like your scenario today). He pitched a fit because it was too small or the wrong kind or sumshiit. I was so fed up that I snatched it back and said, "Now you get nothing. You should have been grateful. I didn't have to give you that and you should have been happy with what you got. When someone gives you something you say 'Thank You' and be happy you got it." Then I proceeded to let him tantrum for a very long time. Yes, it was ranty, and probably over the top, but it did the trick. Even now, if he gets a little testy, all I have to do is say "grateful" and he switches his attitude nicely.
Another thing is modeling. This can be very powerful. Using your example, if LO is fitting about the kind of cup, you say, "Thanks, Mom!" cheerfully. A lot of times they'll follow suit and mimic it. If not, I usually do the broken record trick a few times. "Thanks, Mom!" pause, "THANKS, Mom!" pause, "THANKS, MOM!" pause. If they don't shape up, Ok, bye cup. You can have it when you're ready to be grateful.
The same goes for how to treat toys nicely. Make a big deal about how you're treating your stuff nicely and you like to take care of your things. Have them go pick it back up and put it away properly if they throw it. If a car gets thrown, say, let's drive the car like this: and then model the behavior you want to see.
DS is rough with his stuff, too. It's frustrating. I have gone in and taken all his stuff out of his room before. Even that didn't really spur a change, though. I think some kids are just less conscientious than others. I try to ignore as much as I can (it won't me my sadness if it's broken and has to get thrown out) and when I can't, I take it away if he can't play nice. That's really all there is to it.
Oh, and another thing that may teach them to value their stuff more is to have them start earning money to pay for them. When DS breaks something that I've warned him to be more careful with, especially if it's intentionally, he has to earn money to pay me back for it. When they actually have some skin in the game, it can become more important.

Love all of this. Thank you. I am literally about to cry about how difficult parenting has been the past couple of weeks. It is like the little one is full on hitting his terrible 2's/being super frustrated with being a late talker (and lacking efficient communication), and the older guy is testing us daily. I feel like a broken record with no results. Today, I told the 4 year old to stop spitting, and he did it one more time. I said "if you spit again it is time out" and he did it AGAIN! It is like being forced to be a mean mommy, because I know I have to follow through with the threats and that leads to the crying, etc . . .I am going to look into those books ASAP. In the mean time, I am going to go pour an extra large glass of wine.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

ameyer8009:
With young kids you have to catch those behaviors quick and reward them right away. When I was a nanny for 2 year old twins, I would carry around stamps and stickers. If they said please and thank you, they got one right away. When they got older, I switched to a sticker chart and they could trade in 5 stickers on their chart for something they wanted.

Ohhh - great idea!

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

CTGirl30:
I'd start with not only modeling the behaviors you want to see but also by identifying them. Being "good" is too vague of a concept for an age that hasn't fully grasped abstract thinking yet. "I expect you to say please and thank you" is much more meaningful to a child then, "You need to be good!" Label the behavior, not the child. And I'm a huge proponent of desired behaviors getting way more attention than undesired ones. When DD throws a ridiculous to me tantrum, I ignore and tell her, "when you're ready to xyz, we can" and she usually stops quickly and will come join me for the more fun activity I'm offering. I also don't usually let stuff escalate into stage 5 meltdown territory. I do that by saying what I mean and meaning what I say. In other words, mama means business and I follow up immediately with a consequence if the behavior I'm addressing continues. I don't offer empty threats.

We do follow through with our threats, and that is the problem. It just does not seem to be working anymore. They know to say please and thank you. They usually do it -- I guess that was not the best example. They don't get what they want until they say please, even if it is a battle. They are starting to act out and be disrespectful in other ways. We had a better handle on them before, but within the last few weeks, we have slipped in to anarchy. They continue to look us in the face and then disobey, even when they know the consequences. Then they meltdown when they get in trouble. And the meltdowns last forever and walking away does not seem to help anymore. I do like the tip on having a fun activity to offer to end a tantrum, but I just don't know how to implement that on the fly. Sometimes I am not doing anything fun, and honestly don't have it in me to start doing something they might perceive as fun.

Mrs.Rose · March 2013

Spooko:
Mrs.Rose:
CTGirl30:
I'd start with not only modeling the behaviors you want to see but also by identifying them. Being "good" is too vague of a concept for an age that hasn't fully grasped abstract thinking yet. "I expect you to say please and thank you" is much more meaningful to a child then, "You need to be good!" Label the behavior, not the child. And I'm a huge proponent of desired behaviors getting way more attention than undesired ones. When DD throws a ridiculous to me tantrum, I ignore and tell her, "when you're ready to xyz, we can" and she usually stops quickly and will come join me for the more fun activity I'm offering. I also don't usually let stuff escalate into stage 5 meltdown territory. I do that by saying what I mean and meaning what I say. In other words, mama means business and I follow up immediately with a consequence if the behavior I'm addressing continues. I don't offer empty threats.
We do follow through with our threats, and that is the problem. It just does not seem to be working anymore. They know to say please and thank you. They usually do it -- I guess that was not the best example. They don't get what they want until they say please, even if it is a battle. They are starting to act out and be disrespectful in other ways. We had a better handle on them before, but within the last few weeks, we have slipped in to anarchy. They continue to look us in the face and then disobey, even when they know the consequences. Then they meltdown when they get in trouble. And the meltdowns last forever and walking away does not seem to help anymore. I do like the tip on having a fun activity to offer to end a tantrum, but I just don't know how to implement that on the fly. Sometimes I am not doing anything fun, and honestly don't have it in me to start doing something they might perceive as fun.
It doesn't have to be extravagantly fun. Just more fun than screaming on the floor. Read a book, do a puzzle, play kitchen, eat lunch, what have you.

Screaming on the floor does not sound all that bad to me right now . Thanks for the advice. Really, it does make me feel better to have some new ideas to try.

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