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February 2012 Moms
moms choosing not to vaccinate
I am definitely not trying to stir up in trouble, but I am just asking so I am more informed. A girl in my Sunday School class has a 10 week old baby and she said that they are only doing the polio vaccine because its the only disease that could cause long term effects. They don't want to vaccinate for anything else because its putting stuff in the body that it doesn't need. Is this the general reason people choose not to vaccinate?
I guess what I don't understand is that what if the child gets whooping cough, meningitis, the flu, etc...these could all potentially be fatal for babies. I do understand delaying vaccinations. It makes sense not wanting so much at one time, but not vaccinating at all is hard for me to understand.
If you are choosing to not vaccinate at all could you explain why. I am not here to judge at all...I just want to understand it more.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: moms choosing not to vaccinate
The only one I'm not sure about is the chicken pox vaccine. As a child it's not a big deal to get it, but as an adult it's much worse. I have done zero research on it - and realize that in theory with the vaccine they won't get it as children or adults - but I plan on asking their doctor about it when the time comes. Other then that one, though, we're following the recommended schedule. However, I have a friend is who is extremely anti-vax and it's because of all of the ingredients in the vaccines and she believes that they cause autism and have the possibility of other dangerous side effects.
ETA - I obviously very strongly disagree with my friend and do not personally believe that there is a link between vaccines and autism, especially since the study that was released that showed a link has been discredited.
BFP 3.8.16 EDD 11.20.16
Just a thought--giving your child the chicken pox vaccine ensures that they never get the herpes zoster virus in their body. While chicken pox is usually pretty mild when children get it (I was five when I had it, spent a miserable week of my life itching like crazy--but then it was over), it can lead to complications and permanent scarring.
However, even if your childhood case was relatively mild like mine was, the virus will live in your body for the rest of your life. When I was a junior in high school, the chicken pox virus reappeared in my nervous system as a "shingles" outbreak (even though you usually only get chicken pox once, you can get an outbreak of the same virus in the form of "shingles" over and over). I was in so much pain for weeks that I couldn't even stand to wear a bra or even a shirt for more than a couple of hours a day. The rest of the time, I would sit with no top on in a chair, not touching anything to my chest and back and just want to be unconcious, it hurt so bad. It felt like my back and chest had been lit on fire, and there was so little the doctors could do. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Luckily, since I was so young when I got it, I was able to recover without permanent nerve damage. But I am likely to get more attacks when I am older--and whenever I feel a "twinge" or ache in my chest/back, I still have anxiety immediately that the shingles are coming back. My grandfather got shingles in his chest/back/arm and never got rid of it. He told me that the shingles took all the enjoyment out of his life, and that it had ruined his happiness because of the constant pain. He died several years after he initially contracted it, and the pain never had gone away.
That is a long way of saying that the chicken pox vaccine is one of the vaccines I am most excited about being able to give my daughter. I can give her the gift of never having to deal with the potential of getting shingles--and that is totally, 100% worth it in my book!
I have a cousin who is delaying because her second oldest is autistic and they found out right around the time the study supposedly said vaccines could cause autism. Even though its been proven to be wrong she is still hesitant which I can understand.
I think what I also don't understand about not vaccinating is that not only is dangerous to your child but it puts other children who can't get vaccinated because of age or health at risk. For example, say this girl from church puts her 10 week old in the our nursery and she has been exposed to whooping cough. They think its just a cold because that is how it usually starts to present itself. Well, there are other children under 8 weeks old in the nursery who are now exposed as well. Even if they are over 8 weeks and i have had their first round of shots does not mean they are fully vaccinated for whooping cough. So, because another parent decided they didn't want to vaccinate could potentially put another child in the hospital.
Another example I've read about what on a little girl that had a heart transplant as an infant. She can't get vaccinated with a live virus because her body wouldn't be able to fight it off so she depending on those around her to be vaccinated against all sort of diseases to keep her from getting them.
These are reasons why I don't understand completely not vaccinating. I know every parent has a right to choose what to do for their own child and I don't want to judge anyone for those decisions. If someone has some really valid reasons why they don't vaccinate then I want to know what they are.
In her opinion, you can survive the flu, pertussis, chicken pox, etc. You cannot recover from brain damage or nerve damage if you have a negative reaction to a vaccine.
Hmm...I wonder if the parents of the two babies who died of pertussis in my husband's hospital already this year would find comfort in your sister's non-researched belief that "you can survive pertussis."
People who don't vax depend on herd immunity to protect against getting sick. This is everyone who doesn't vax, whether they're too young, too old, too sick, or have moral objections or otherwise choose not to (and also those who might not be immune even if they were vaxed - it's not 100%). The problem is that as more of the herd chooses to opt out, the herd immunity doesn't work as well. I get a little angry thinking of how the chances of getting something like whooping cough goes up for people who don't have the choice to get vaxed just because some people are choosing not to, but I'll try to overlook that right now.
my cousin-in-law is an anti-vaxer. His main objections seem to be the ingredients. He would prefer to take the risk of his child getting sick than the risk of side effects from the ingredients. Fair enough, but I'm not sure whether, when they do have kids, I'll feel comfortable letting l play with them...
Also, my husband grew up in a very rural area where going to the doctor regularly for preventative care was not really stressed very much.
He contracted mumps in college, missed out on about a month of his life, recovered, but then had to wait until we started trying to have kids to find out if the mumps had rendered him infertile, as it does many men who contract it after puberty. So, while he did survive it, he had some serious anxiety about the serious long-term consequences of that infection.
There is a big difference between reading articles and forums on "vaccinessuck.com" and "vaccinescauseautism.net" and doing real research in peer-reviewed medical journals about the effectiveness and necessity of vaccines for children. I give a huge, unapologetic side eye to people who have "done research so they are not vaccinating their children." All I think is, "oh, I guess you just don't love your children nearly as much as I previously thought you did." I don't apologize for that thought.
She personally knows a nonvaccinated child who had pertussis and is perfectly fine. I didn't not say that everyone who contracts it survives, I said it's possible.
People who have been fully vaccinated for pertussis have contracted pertussis too.
We vaccinate. It does make me a little nervous because of possible side effects, but the possible consequences of not vaccinating scare me more.
When I took LO to get his 4 month shots I talked to an older Dr. about it and she said she has actually seen some of these diseases when she was younger (polio, measles, mumps, etc) and it is horrible. She said young people who are against vaccinating piss her off because if they had seen this stuff in real life and knew what it is really like, there is no way they would choose not to vaccinate.
I think the "outdated" argument is very poor. If everyone decided vaccines were outdated and stopped getting them, all these now preventable diseases would likely be back in full force.
One more thing, and then I will try to back away from this post..
In 1960, kids were vaccinated against 5 illnesses. In total, those vaccines were packed with 3,000+ separate antigens designed to stimulate the child's immune system and create immunity to those 5 illnesses.
In 1980, kids were vaccinated against 7 illnesses. In total, those vaccines were packed with almost exactly 3,000 separate antigens to create immunity to those 7 illnesses.
Currently, kids are vaccinated against 11 illnesses. In total, these vaccines contain ONLY 123 antigens to create immunity to those 11 illnesses.
In the past 50 years, scientists have greatly improved the method of creating immunity with using the very minimum number of antigens possible. In other terms, in 1960, scientists had to essentially use a shotgun full of all sorts of potential weapons to target the illnesses they wanted to create immunity against. Thanks to science, modern vaccines are like the equivalent of a sniper rifle--with only a very select, small group of antigens that are super targeted on creating maximum immunity with minimum undesirable side effects.
Seriously--how could we have gone from injecting our kids (for the most part very safely) with 3,000+ antigens to now only injecting about 125 antigens in the sum total of all vaccines, and only now are people blaming vaccines for a wide range of childhood problems. If their logic was even remotely reasonable, then these kids of the 1960s and 1980s (pretty much all of us!) should have had far more problems and far more serious problems than kids of today. But that is absolutely not true--and thus, the great majority of anti-vaccine people are simply uneducated as to the above information.
Haha...using that logic, I personally know thousands of individuals who have been fully vaccinated and didn't suffer any ill effects--so that must mean it is 100% safe.
As with any analysis--garbage in, garbage out.
And yes, some people who have been vaccinated for pertussis have still contracted it. In fact, scientists have recently realized that a booster is needed around puberty to insure continued protection through adulthood (which is why we were all encouraged to get the tdap booster during or after pregnancy).
But, I just can't even imagine not vaccinating my kid for a stupid reason and then having them get horribly sick or die thanks to my negligence. I truly don't think I could live with myself after that.
my grandpa had polio. I'm sure I'd get an earful if I decided not to vaccinate.
Let's assume that vaccines have these side effects written on them because some kids have actually had these kid effects, we all know they wouldn't be there otherwise.
What would you tell a parent whose child is now brain dead from a vaccine? A child whose life is severely limited from seizures?
How would you feel if your child ended up with a severe side effect from a vaccine?
I have to completely agree with Sooner in all of this.
212 Facebook Admin.
First of all--I am not fighting. Just providing some information about a subject that seriously gets my mom instincts all riled up.
As you said, there is a national databank for the entry of any injuries/illnesses that occur in children who were vaccinated in the past few weeks. But, the rules of the databank require the automatic reporting of any injuries/illnesses that occurred to that child in the few weeks after they received the vaccine--regardless of whether the doctor thinks the vaccine actually had any effect at all on the illness/injury.
For instance, in medical school my husband learned that if a 16 year old girl received the HPV vaccine on a Monday, and then she was killed in a car wreck on that next Friday, her doctor would technically be required to report her death to the national databank, since she was in that after-vaccination period. Now, these rules can sometimes be helpful because they can tease out otherwise unnoticeable side effects that are actually caused by the vaccine. For instance, if a large number of people were killing themselves after receiving the vaccine, even with no history of depression, their deaths could be potentially be attributed to a mental change associated with the vaccine, even though they technically caused their own deaths.
But...this method of reporting absolutely any illness or injury within a certain period causes people just looking at this national databank or reading the list of "potential side effects" a lot of heartburn. For instance, a headache/stomach problems are pretty much listed as side effects for anything you could ever get at the doctor's office--that is because almost everyone is going to experience some kind of headache and/or stomach ache in the course of a normal 2 week period, regardless of whether they received an injection or not. And, due to lawsuits, every manufacturer is going to be absolutely sure to list every single, solitary possible side effect reported to the national database, so that they can say that people had informed consent before getting the vaccine. That is why the 16-year old's death in a car wreck can cause the HPV vaccine to list "death" as a potential side effect for the vaccine--even though any rational person isn't going to be thiking that their child is going to get in a car wreck a week after getting that vaccine--even though it happened to one other person in the country.
Having said all of the above, yes, there are sometimes reactions to vaccines. The great majority of those reactions are allergic. Those, personally, I am not super worried about because they administer them in the doctor's office so that they can administer epinepherine and provide emergency assistance if your child happens to be allergic to something in the vaccine. In those cases, where kids are allergic to eggs or something used to create the vaccines, I, as a parent, would far, far rather find out that my kid has an allergy to eggs in a doctor's office with an epi pen located feet away than on a random morning when I gave him a scrambled egg and her throat swells shut without warning! So, the potential for allergies really doesn't concern me enough to withhold such valuable medical care on my daughter's behalf.
There are, on rare circumstances, neurological reactions to certain vaccines. However, usually, in these cases, the child had some rare genetic condition or physical condition that had previously been undiscovered until a vaccine was administered and it triggered an abnormal response. There is no guarantee that, had that vaccine not been administered at that time, the child wouldn't have had the exact same neurological complication or worse from the first time they became seriously ill or picked up a virus that challenged their immune system in the same way as a vaccine does. So, even though the vaccine technically can cause adverse reactions, it is not like the vaccine is the only thing that would have triggered that end result in that child.
In very, very rare circumstances, I am sure there are some cases where it is possible that a kid could have had a totally normal life, except for a reaction that they exerienced when getting a vaccine. I guess I equate this extremely rare possiblity with the much-higher risk that my child will get hurt in a car wreck every time we leave our house. Sometimes sh!t happens, no matter how hard to protect your kids. If she did get a legitimate vaccine injury, I would console myself that I had acted on the best information currently available to science in deciding to vaccinate her, and that my husband, a doctor who spent years learning about these vaccines, had her best interest in mind when ensuring that she received all her vaccines on schedule. I would, of course, be devastated, but I wouldn't blame myself for allowing her to receive the current gold standard of medical care.
This is totally different than the people who go against medical advice in not getting their kids vaccinated, and then what they have to deal with when either: (1) their kid gets a vaccinable illness and dies or is seriously injured or has lifelong consequences as a result, or (2) their kid is infected, recovers fine, but while infected, infects another child who either dies or is seriously affected. In those cases, I wouldn't be able to live with myself as a parent because I had made an uneducated decision for my child that had affected my child's life. Adults are allowed to make whatever decisions they want with regards to their own bodies and their own lives. But with vaccine decisions, parents are allowed to "opt out" of receiving these life-saving vaccines on behalf of their children based on crap science. I just don't get it.
I am glad you are not my child's nurse. Did you learn in nursing school about how "anecdotal evidence" is pretty much worthless? Do you tell your patients about your brilliant conclusions that since you saw a couple of babies in the NICU with pertussis survive, that pertussis is a totally super easy illness and people are stupid to vaccinate their kiddos against it? Again, our hospital has had two babies die of pertussis this year alone.
I am glad you don't judge my decision to vaccinate my child. But, that doesn't mean that I feel bad judging your decision. Not on this important issue. I don't care when you put your kid to bed at night. Or whether you do CIO or allow them to wake up 5 times a night until they are 5 years old. Or whether you do BLW or feed them purees as their first foods. But I do have a problem with a blank anti-immunization decision based on "the ingredients in a vaccine" and your personal experience with a few babies with pertussis. So, I guess in real life we wouldn't be friends--oh well.
Also, I will just throw this out there. We hang out with a lot of pediatricians and other doctors in our social group--and ALL OF THEM vaccinate their children (usually 100% on schedule, but I know one or two who are getting all the vaccines but delaying by up to 2 months at the most from the normal schedule). They are huge vaccine fans (even knowing the slight risk of side effects) since they also know about the real possibility of their kiddos contracting the illnesses vaccines protect against. And this is with their own kids--the ones who they love more than anything else in the world. If there really was some kind of crazy conspiracy that doctors were all in on, don't you think they would find a way to "opt out" of getting vaccines for their own children--especially since it is an absolutely private decision?!?
I know a couple of nurses/other non-physician medical staff who have "done research" and are not vaccinating--but don't know any doctors who have made that decision. Yet, doctors do about 10+ years of scientific/medical education and training and nurses usually do somewhere in the range of 1-4 years of medical education and training. Take that for what you will...
What do you do for medications that your LO might have to take to fight off an illness of some kind? Do you use those or not?
The body's natural ability to fight?? Why do you think deaths from these devastating diseases has decreased over the last century? We have amazing immune systems but there are some strong viruses out there. When you choose not to vaccinate, you put others at risk . . . Elderly, infants, etc.
There is a new study that links autism to the age of the father.
https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444812704577605282821235136.html
I think autism is going to be seen as something like cancer. Lots of causes, both environmental and genetic.
In our state, they claim, falsely, that it is against their "religious teachings," because that is the only exception that allows their kids to go to school un-vaxed. Pretty crazy, if you ask me, to teach your kids that lying about your "super special" beliefs in God to justify a non-religious decision is totes okay from the first day of school onward...
ETA: In our state, religious exemption is the only one you can get if you can't show underlying medical condition or current chemo treatment or something similar--so basically, the only one available for the anti-vax crowd.
Agree, and was just wondering that myself.
There was this post and discussion on the bump some time ago, and I absolutely LOVED the analogy!!
https://community.thebump.com/cs/ks/forums/thread/67063969.aspx
Essentially, the point the OP was trying to make is that there are many instances throughout a year where a baby is injured or dies in a car accident, and there is actual evidence that has the baby NOT been in the carseat, the baby may have been better off, but how many mothers out there choose not to put their babies in carseats because of that data.
Saying you are not going to use a carseat sounds absolutely ridiculous, right? Well, how about when you analogize it to choosing not to vaccinate? Why is that not just as ridiculous? Yes, there could be some adverse effects from vaccinating, but science and studies have shown that the chances of that happening are about the same as getting into a car accident where a car seat would actually be detrimental to a LO (miniscule).
So, for those who don't vaccinate, why do you use a carseat?
I have two HUGE vaccine-related soap boxes. One is that they are "outdated," the other is that they cause autism. False and falser. Both make me equally stabby.
for whoever said they are outdated, the WHO just released a new fact sheet on polio. 650 cases reported worldwide last year. How long do you think it would take for someone to travel abroad and bring that back to a play ground in NYC?
https://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs114/en/
And in case you would like to do some reading on the autism/vaccine link (that doesn't exist):
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/05/vaccine-autism-study-report_n_805036.html
Completely agree with this. The people I know or have heard of in our area that do not vaccinate have to lie or exaggerate the truth and show that it is against their religion to vaccinate. I had the exact same thought as you, Sooner. It doesn't make any sense to me and makes my blood boil.
Everyone else has pretty much covered my feelings on this topic. I vaccinate my daughter and it makes me very uncomfortable that it seems so many people these days are taking this decision lightly. It is a big deal to choose not to vaccinate, to your child and everyone in their environment. One of my friends has told me that when she has children, she will not vaccinate them. I told her that if she doesn't change her mind before she has children, that our kids will not be playing together.
We do spread all of her vaccines out so that she never receives more than one needle at a time before six months of age and she will never get more than two needles at a time while I am making the decisions. (I say needles because many vaxes have more than one vaccine in them). I really believe this 4-7 vaccines at one time is some serious BS and waaaaay too much for their little systems.
I also think it is naive and ridiculous to think that a vaccinate guarentees immunity. Some have a better track record than others. But I truly believe that presenting vaccinations as a foolproof method of disease prevention is dangerous.
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
Hubster got chicken pox when he was 16 and he had to be hospitalized for 2 weeks.
We will be giving Sophie the chicken pox vaccination, just in case her experience might be like her dad's.
Melodic Insomniac
We never considered not vaccinating, but I did research a delayed schedule. I was not concerned about any supposed link to autism {honestly, anyone who still seriously believes those now-wholly-debunked studies gets written off as ignorant and uneducated in my book}, but more the amount of vaccinations given during the first year. After speaking with a very trusted friend - who is not only a pediatrician, but one who began his practice in Portland where he studied delayed schedules and worked with parents who requested "the most whacked out schedules one could ever think of" {his words} - we decided to go with the regular schedule.
He quoted us stats identical to sooner's -- basically affirming that ONE measles vaccine from the 80s contained more antigens and ingredients than EVERY SINGLE vaccine on today's regular schedule from infancy through age 5. So while it seems like a lot when your 4 mo old receives 3 needle pricks + an oral vaccine, the actual antigens and ingredients entering his or her body are relatively minuscule. With those facts in mind, I'd rather L get her vaccines over in one fell swoop every few months than keep bringing her back every few weeks for more pricks.
I'm pretty damn open-minded when it comes to parenting decisions and individual liberties in general, but I don't mind saying that I strongly believe certain {or perhaps all} vaccinations should be required for entrance to public schools. Herd immunity is essential to the success rate of vaccinations and to overall public health. You want your kid to "build up a natural immunity" to polio or mumps? That's your prerogative, but I frankly don't want them sharing monkey bars with my child.
To me, it doesn't sound like she has done much research. She is just using anecdotal evidence. I don't think anyone who does research can still see a link to autism.