Open discussion- What do you think of this?

Lena122 · October 2012

I don't usually agree with NatesLady, or at least not on her presentation of things, but she clearly stated the topic of the discussion in the OP so if anyone might have gotten offended at the topic and responses they should have not read the comments.

I think it's pretty clear that the government, science, society, or whoever needs to decide when life begins in order for abortion laws to be just. If the government decides life begins at conception then the circumstances behind the conception don't matter, abortion would be murder because that baby is "alive." If the government decides it begins at 24 weeks gestation then abortion would be murder after 24 weeks but not before regardless of the circumstances And so on and so forth.

It really makes NO sense to my why circumstances should be involved in the legality of abortion. All that matter is when life begins.

jmccall79 · October 2012

Jen0204:
But a 100 year old man CAN breathe and physically be alive on his own. I'm not talking about people who need help - whether it be help being fed, dialysis, taking care of themselves, whatever. I'm strictly talking about being able to breathe and just actually be alive on their own. From an emotional perspective, I agree with you and would never have an abortion of my own. From a legal perspective I think we should look at it scientifically and make decisions based on viability.
But as I said in my first post, this is a very emotionally charged topic, and unlike the discussion about polygamy I think it's pretty impossible to have a "productive" conversation about it.

You originally said "an individual capable of sustaining life on his own". And that is an arguement that comes up as to when/what would be considered murder. As to my point of the 4wk old outside the womb, or a 100 year old in a nursing home...neither are capable of sustaining life on their own. And I don't know how one, not necessarily you just in general, can argue the "breathing" factor because there are a lot of babies born at full term that need assistance breathing, or many many other circumstances where people are place on ventilators...again not capable of sustaining life on their own. That was my only point.

And I agree....this is a hot topic...way more debateable than polygamy, in my opinion. Having said that, I'm going to stop my comments now, because this topic gets my blood boiling, lol!

Shmogan09 · October 2012

NatesLady1309:
HattieLove:
Jen0204:

I think this is a much more emotionally charged topic then polygamy.

Also this. Especially since we're all moms.

True.

Directed at anyone- has going through a pregnancy and having a baby changed the way you view the topic of abortion in any way?

For myself, yes. For the public, no.

I always knew I would get an abortion if I got pregnant young. I was very careful with my bc and knew I was doing everything possible to avoid making that choice (Luckily I was never in that position). Now, after having my boys, if I were to get pregnant after DH's vasectomy I don't think I could do it even though the LAST thing I want is a third child.

But that has not changed my opinion that a woman should get to make that choice herself.

runrinserepeat · October 2012

Jen0204:
kleMcK:

Jen0204:

But as I said in my first post, this is a very emotionally charged topic, and unlike the discussion about polygamy I think it's pretty impossible to have a "productive" conversation about it.

I actually think our conversation was productive, at least for me. Though I don't see eye-to-eye with you on the matter, I enjoyed reading what you had to "say."

And I love that you always challenge my points or analogies. It makes me think about my position more.

Well, thank you for taking it that way. I've found I often alienate people by asking too many questions. I'm really trying to hold back, because I feel like I'm on the cusp of that now.

ETA: I always feel like I need to clarify. You are in no way making my blood boil. I'm not worked up in the slightest. I have several more questions that I would LOVE to ask (especially since you are keeping YOUR cool and providing well-thought-out answers), I'm just not sure they would further the discussion all that much.

lancyjo · October 2012

pinkshades05:
lancyjo:
BUT. I am in no way in favor of abortion just because you were fooling around and got pregnant on accident. NO way. Life begins at conception IMO.
This. I think our generation doesn't understand consequences when it comes to sex. If you aren't ready to be a parent at any given moment in case birth control fails then you shouldn't be having sex!

Yes Yes

It makes me worried for our children's generation.

cheese.fiend · October 2012

Jen0204:
NatesLady1309:
EmmaBoBemma:
I read an interesting point of view just a couple days ago. A woman was murdered, she was a few months pregnant. The person who murdered her will be charged with double homicide. The baby obviously was killed, but babies are killed all the time for abortions, so why is it a crime now? It's only a crime because the baby was wanted? I thought it was a pretty interesting point of view.
I find it so interesting when there are cases like that. It seems like such a double standard. I wonder if the woman had been planning on aborting the baby the next day, and that could be proven, if the person would still be charged with the double homicide or only a single. If course there are an infinite number of circumstances and factors around that (could have changed her mind at the last moment, etc) but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.
How far along was she? I would completely agree with this if she were past 24 weeks since medically that is when a fetus is considered viable.

To process this "double standard," you really need to have an understanding of the legal rationale behind both Roe v. Wade and the Unborn Victims Act and it's corresponding state legislation.

Roe v. Wade was decided based on an individual's right to privacy. The decision is really a balancing act between privacy rights granted to us in the Bill of Rights and the State's interest in protecting (unborn) citizens. According to the SCOTUS, privacy rights trump the State's rights in early pregnancy, but as pregnancy progresses, the State's right to protect an unborn child does intensify (thus leading to laws banning late term abortion, etc).

So basically, R v. W says "States, you have no right to legislate against early term abortions because of a woman's privacy rights." SCOTUS did not make an official decision on when life begins. However, they did state that, for the purposes of the Constitution, "person" has never been construed to include a fetus.

The Unborn Victims Act is federal legislation that does indeed include unborn fetuses in the definition of "person," BUT ONLY for the purpose of specific crimes. 36 states have similar laws on their books that make it possible for the State to bring double homicide charges against someone who murders a pregnant woman.

Doesn't this conflict with Roe v. Wade? Um, yeah, kinda... But constitutional challenges against the UVA have all be struck down by lower courts. The reason being that very intricate balance between individual privacy rights and State's rights... A woman choosing to abort a fetus early in pregnancy falls under an issue of privacy. An assailant choosing to murder a pregnant woman, effectively aborting the fetus as well, is not governed by privacy rights. Thus, the State can step in and punish that assailant.

Confusing. Convoluted. But that's the law.

FWIW, as a legal scholar (how pretentious does THAT sound??!), I think Roe v. Wade is a poorly reasoned SCOTUS opinion. I think there were many other ways to reach the same decision that would have been more legally sound. But, as it is, it is the current law, and I happen to agree with the ends, if not the means.

ETA: Has having a baby affected my views on abortion? Like PPers have said, it would now be VERY difficult for me to have an abortion now, but I would never vote to take away the decision for someone else.

Shawnee11507 · October 2012

I will chime in, since my opinion is probably different than most and I also feel strongly on the topic. First, I think that most people's opinion on this is influenced by their religion, and I believe there should be a separation of church and state.

A little about me- I am spiritual but not religious. I believe in God and reincarnation. I believe Jesus was a real, good, and enlightened person, but I do not believe he was the "son" of God any more than I am a "daughter" of God. I believe the Bible is essentially a work of fiction "based on a true story", edited to please the government and religion in power at the time. I am pro-choice. I don't believe a fetus is a "person" until they are born. To me, it is when the soul enters the body that the fetus become a baby, a person. I don't think that occurs until birth.

First, I don't believe anyone has the right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do with their own body. Second, what will become of these children? Most women who consider abortion have a good reason for doing so and did not come to the decision easily. If a woman is forced to have a child she does not want, it could lead to abuse, neglect, and poverty. Will the politicians who would outlaw abortion pay for these children's daily needs throughout their lives out of their own pocket? Will they love and take care of these children themselves? One could argue for adoption, but then why are thousands of children sitting in foster care, aging out of the system because no one has adopted them? Add thousands of children to the mix. Is that really fair to these children? And to the women who do give them up for adoption, a lot of these children will search for them as adults, making them re-live the trauma again. Also, some people who would abort the child, once forced to birth the child, will feel that they could not give the child away, but truly do not want the child. These children may face resentment and be abused, neglected, and not know love. Potential future sociopaths and criminals maybe?

Children are a gift from God. It should be one's choice to accept or refuse that gift. I do not believe the potential child is "killed". I believe the soul that would enter that fetus and become that child moves on to another baby and family- let it be one that truly wants to love and cherish them.

ETA: I do not agree with late term abortions (after the baby would be able to sustain life on its own outside the womb).

Jen0204 · October 2012

kleMcK:
Jen0204:
kleMcK:

Jen0204:

But as I said in my first post, this is a very emotionally charged topic, and unlike the discussion about polygamy I think it's pretty impossible to have a "productive" conversation about it.

I actually think our conversation was productive, at least for me. Though I don't see eye-to-eye with you on the matter, I enjoyed reading what you had to "say."

And I love that you always challenge my points or analogies. It makes me think about my position more.

Well, thank you for taking it that way. I've found I often alienate people by asking too many questions. I'm really trying to hold back, because I feel like I'm on the cusp of that now.

ETA: I always feel like I need to clarify. You are in no way making my blood boil. I'm not worked up in the slightest. I have several more questions that I would LOVE to ask (especially since you are keeping YOUR cool and providing well-thought-out answers), I'm just not sure they would further the discussion all that much.

Feel free to send me a PM if you think it would cause a stir here.

jmccall79 · October 2012

kleMcK:
You are in no way making my blood boil.

And I'll add, that no one here is making my blood boil. My "blood boiling" was not directed at Jen by any means, hope you didn't take it that way Jen. I think we've all kept our cool pretty well. It's just this "topic" in general that gets me worked up. I think we are all entitled to our own opinion, on this topic as well as any other. I don't have to agree with you, and you don't have to agree with me. It's what makes this world go round.

Jen0204 · October 2012

jmccall79:
kleMcK:
You are in no way making my blood boil.
And I'll add, that no one here is making my blood boil. My "blood boiling" was not directed at Jen by any means, hope you didn't take it that way Jen. I think we've all kept our cool pretty well. It's just this "topic" in general that gets me worked up. I think we are all entitled to our own opinion, on this topic as well as any other. I don't have to agree with you, and you don't have to agree with me. It's what makes this world go round.

I didn't take it that way at all. This topic in general gets people going.

kittyh8r · October 2012

Jen0204:
NatesLady1309:
EmmaBoBemma:
I read an interesting point of view just a couple days ago. A woman was murdered, she was a few months pregnant. The person who murdered her will be charged with double homicide. The baby obviously was killed, but babies are killed all the time for abortions, so why is it a crime now? It's only a crime because the baby was wanted? I thought it was a pretty interesting point of view.

I find it so interesting when there are cases like that. It seems like such a double standard. I wonder if the woman had been planning on aborting the baby the next day, and that could be proven, if the person would still be charged with the double homicide or only a single. If course there are an infinite number of circumstances and factors around that (could have changed her mind at the last moment, etc) but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.
How far along was she? I would completely agree with this if she were past 24 weeks since medically that is when a fetus is considered viable.

I originally thought she was 8 weeks, but she was 8 months!

HattieLove · October 2012

karleegirl:
I stopped reading replies at the murder statement. I was raped at age 13 by a family friend who was 15. I was held down and a hand put over my mouth and my virginity, innocence and faith in people was taken. I can't imagine being forced to give birth to a child at that age. I can't even muster up any words to express the disgust I feel now after reading this thread.

Karleegirl, I am so sad for you.

I think it's appalling that some people could/can read this story (or any of the many stories like this one) and feel like, if you had gotten pregnant, you shouldn't be allowed the option of abortion.

NatesLady1309 · October 2012

karleegirl:
I stopped reading replies at the murder statement. I was raped at age 13 by a family friend who was 15. I was held down and a hand put over my mouth and my virginity, innocence and faith in people was taken. I can't imagine being forced to give birth to a child at that age. I can't even muster up any words to express the disgust I feel now after reading this thread.

karlee, I am so sorry this happened to you.

NatesLady1309 · October 2012

kleMcK:
Jen0204:

But as I said in my first post, this is a very emotionally charged topic, and unlike the discussion about polygamy I think it's pretty impossible to have a "productive" conversation about it.

I actually think our conversation was productive, at least for me. Though I don't see eye-to-eye with you on the matter, I enjoyed reading what you had to "say."

I'm certainly seeing a lot of different viewpoints here and I don't think it's gotten out of hand.

ssimon621 · October 2012

I am pro-life when it comes to me. I do not think I would be able to abort a baby that I conceived as a result of a rape, but I do think I would give the baby to a family that wanted it through a non-traditional adoption system.

A lot of you are talking about abortion, but do you consider Plan B abortion? Plan B is basically a very strong birth control pill and many of you are on BC although not everyone for religious and personal reasons. If a rape victim takes Plan B do you consider them a murderer then. Everyone says that life begins at conception so do you consider BC abortion since it keeps the egg from implanting or traveling through the fallopian tubes???

Another thought is that a woman who conceives through rape not only has to carry the burden of giving birth to this child, but they also have to pay medical bills and take time off of work that may or may not be paid to give birth. Regardless of if you are keeping the baby or giving the baby up for adoption you have to take at least 4-6 weeks off from work. What if that woman just started a new job and will be fired if she takes leave? There is so much to consider when things like this happens.

Lastly, what if Ken's mom wanted to have an abortion and her parents wouldn't allow it because of their religious beliefs?? He never discussed if it was truly all her decision to carry him to term and give him up for adoption.

sunnyday016 · October 2012

I am really torn on the subject. I 100% believe that life begins at conception. I know that for me personally, abortion would never be an option. But I also can recognize that I have never been in the position to have to make that choice, and it's one of those choices that you don't really know what you'd truly do until you're there. I also agree with whoever said if you're not willing/able to be a parent at any given point in time should your bc fail, then you should not be having sex. Obviously, in the case of rape this point is moot but for people who are having sex, accidentally get pg, and then have an abortion, I believe that is wrong.

However, for the government to have that much control over a women's health, decisions, and course of her life is a bit too far reaching for me, too much to swallow. I think it's a slippery slope. If abortions are illegal, is it only a matter of time before the government starts to interfere in other medical decisions? If you grant "personhood" to a fetus, will the government then have to start going after pregnant mothers who smoke, or who don't wear a seatbelt, or who drink alcohol while pregnant? All of those things endanger a fetus, but they're not illegal (except for the seat belt- you'll get a ticket, but that's for you, not for "child endangerment", KWIM?)

footnotegirl · October 2012

NatesLady1309:

True.

Directed at anyone- has going through a pregnancy and having a baby changed the way you view the topic of abortion in any way?

Absolutely. I was pro-choice before being pregnant and having my daughter and I am even, if that were possible, more pro-choice now. I had a much wanted and easy pregnancy (no morning sickness, continued working until the day before delivery, etc) other than daily shots after month 6, and I cannot, in good conscience, say that any woman should be forced to go through that against her will, let alone a more difficult pregnancy or one that began through rape.

Having a daughter as well makes me deeply aware of the future of reproductive rights and protecting them for her.

sunnyday016 · October 2012

ssimon621:
I am pro-life when it comes to me. I do not think I would be able to abort a baby that I conceived as a result of a rape, but I do think I would give the baby to a family that wanted it through a non-traditional adoption system.

A lot of you are talking about abortion, but do you consider Plan B abortion? Plan B is basically a very strong birth control pill and many of you are on BC although not everyone for religious and personal reasons. If a rape victim takes Plan B do you consider them a murderer then. Everyone says that life begins at conception so do you consider BC abortion since it keeps the egg from implanting or traveling through the fallopian tubes???

Another thought is that a woman who conceives through rape not only has to carry the burden of giving birth to this child, but they also have to pay medical bills and take time off of work that may or may not be paid to give birth. Regardless of if you are keeping the baby or giving the baby up for adoption you have to take at least 4-6 weeks off from work. What if that woman just started a new job and will be fired if she takes leave? There is so much to consider when things like this happens.

Lastly, what if Ken's mom wanted to have an abortion and her parents wouldn't allow it because of their religious beliefs?? He never discussed if it was truly all her decision to carry him to term and give him up for adoption.

It takes the sperm a few days to meet the egg, and a few days after that to implant. IMO, if Plan B is taken within those first few days, before the sperm & egg meet, then it is not abortion. There is no fertilized egg.

NatesLady1309 · October 2012

sunnyday016:
for people who are having sex, accidentally get pg, and then have an abortion, I believe that is wrong.
However, for the government to have that much control over a women's health, decisions, and course of her life is a bit too far reaching for me, too much to swallow. I think it's a slippery slope. If abortions are illegal, is it only a matter of time before the government starts to interfere in other medical decisions? If you grant "personhood" to a fetus, will the government then have to start going after pregnant mothers who smoke, or who don't wear a seatbelt, or who drink alcohol while pregnant? All of those things endanger a fetus, but they're not illegal (except for the seat belt- you'll get a ticket, but that's for you, not for "child endangerment", KWIM?)

The first part of the quote- do you believe it's wrong in this situation because the fact that they got pregnant was just irresponsible and they should have to deal with the consequences but not because it is morally (or religiously or however you'd like to word it) wrong? Do you believe it is not morally wrong for a person who has been raped to have an abortion, that it's an exception because it wasn't their choice to get pregnant (or to be raped, obviously) whereas the people who were just irresponsible knew what the outcome of their actions could possibly be?

I definitely see your point with the second paragraph though, that's food for thought.

btartaroind · October 2012

Lena122:
It doesn't make sense to me that a person who willingly had sex may not be able to have an abortion but a person who unwillingly had sex could. Their babies are still that, BABIES. How they were conceived doesn't change that. I don't believe in abortion unless the mother's life is at risk. I think every conceived baby is a person, even more so now that I saw my baby doing flips in my uterus at 8 weeks gestation. I'm not argueing that being raped, then getting pregnant, and deciding to keep or adopt the baby would be hell. It absolutely would be. But that's just the way life is sometimes. People are evil, sometimes life sucks, and that's just the way it is. Abortion won't make you forget you were raped. I just don't see that as a legitimate reason.

I may not be able to read all the responses on this post but since I feel VERY strongly about this topic I just wanted to chime in that this is how I feel 1000% Especially since I have met the child of a rape, and she is a public speaker who has changed the lives of 1,000's of people. Each life is precious no matter how it was concieved. My heart does go out to the mothers who had to go through such a terrible experience, however.

NatesLady1309 · October 2012

ssimon621:
A lot of you are talking about abortion, but do you consider Plan B abortion? Plan B is basically a very strong birth control pill and many of you are on BC although not everyone for religious and personal reasons. If a rape victim takes Plan B do you consider them a murderer then. Everyone says that life begins at conception so do you consider BC abortion since it keeps the egg from implanting or traveling through the fallopian tubes???

Very good point about BCPs and hormonal BC. But that one could open up a whole other can of worms. Maybe for another day? Hmmmm.

NatesLady1309 · October 2012

btartaroind:
Lena122:
It doesn't make sense to me that a person who willingly had sex may not be able to have an abortion but a person who unwillingly had sex could. Their babies are still that, BABIES. How they were conceived doesn't change that. I don't believe in abortion unless the mother's life is at risk. I think every conceived baby is a person, even more so now that I saw my baby doing flips in my uterus at 8 weeks gestation. I'm not argueing that being raped, then getting pregnant, and deciding to keep or adopt the baby would be hell. It absolutely would be. But that's just the way life is sometimes. People are evil, sometimes life sucks, and that's just the way it is. Abortion won't make you forget you were raped. I just don't see that as a legitimate reason.

I may not be able to read all the responses on this post but since I feel VERY strongly about this topic I just wanted to chime in that this is how I feel 1000% Especially since I have met the child of a rape, and she is a public speaker who has changed the lives of 1,000's of people. Each life is precious no matter how it was concieved. My heart does go out to the mothers who had to go through such a terrible experience, however.

Lena's response has been one of my favorites as well.

hayliedc · October 2012

Jen0204:
kleMcK:
Just to play the devil's advocate, though, newborns aren't really capable of sustaining life on their own. They require basically 'round the clock care.

Also, extrapolating what you've said here, would it then be okay to kill someone who was being kept alive by machines in a hospital? If Ken were on dialysis 2-3 times/week, he's not technically capable of sustaining life on his own - he needs the machines to help. Does that justify, or even mitigate, killing him on the street then?
But newborns can exist on their own. They can't care for themselves, but neither can quadriplegics and no one would ever advocate for euthanizing them. The comparison that I think is fair is not to dialysis, but rather to people being kept alive by machines. Family is allowed to decide whether or not to turn off those machines because those individuals can't survive without them - how is that different?

Family is only allowed if the person doesn't have a will. The person on life support gets to make the decision if they choose to write a will. So it is differemt

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